About the Irish scandals

[St_Francis]

I have had the Irish abuse scandals in the back of my mind, and suddenly I saw it from the other side so to speak.

I am here in the US and over the decades I have heard about many many scandals like this: seriously abusive institutions… several about institutions for wayward children (ranging from abandoned to criminal), boarding schools for Native American children, etc.

And this is not only the US but Canada and Australia as well.

But the difference is that these institutions were run by all sorts of different organizations: various Protestant groups and governments. In Ireland, *all *those institutions were (or seem to have been) run by Catholics.

So I propose that a lot of places had similar problems but that in Ireland, they were all associated with the Church and therefore the blame is 1st, concentrated, and 2nd, on the Church.

Whereas if this was a widespread phenomenon, it may be that it had nothing to do with the Church per se, but was simply something *else *that happened, and which also affected Church facilities.

Because the various situations in other nations came to light over the course of time, and because the adminstration of these places were in the hands of lots of different groups, we never viewed them as anything other than sad but isolated instances. We could not turn to one single entity and say: they did it.

 

[triumphguy]

I think that abusers look for places where they can abuse with impunity.
I don’t believe that being Catholic, or living a vow of celibacy turns people into abusers.
So abusers sought out places where they could abuse. The Church was one such place, and voila!

I think the Church is culpable in not identifying the severity and significance of the types of abuse, and in not dealing with it in a firm and transparent manner. But then hindsight is 20/20!

However, in certain circumstances certain elements in the Church have knowingly aided and abetted horrendous acts - eg., the Church (in the role of Catholic healthcare) under Franco in Spain taking babies from taking babies from families associated with the opposition, telling those families the babies had died, and giving the babies to Francoist supported to bring up - a kind of political genocide.

 

[St_Francis]

Triumphguy,
I have never heard about these events–I have only heard about this happening to babies born of unwed mothers. And I have to say that given the attitudes elsewhere at the time, this may have seemed like the best solution for an unwed mother–not that it was right, but that it seemed that way. Of course, some of the other things which happened to unwed mothers (rough treatment and cruel words from doctors and the like) were totally unjustified.

But again, this happened in the Magdalen Laundries in Ireland, and quite likely happened elsewhere, but in “elsewhere,” there was no centralization since the various institutions were run by a variety of organizations.

i proposed this thought of mine in part because someone expressed distress about the situation in Ireland, and in part because the situation in Ireland seems to have mirrored a similar situation in other parts of the world, a situation not noticed because of the diffusion of authority.

If this is the case, and it does constitute a phenomenon apart from the Church, it might be important to understand it so as to avoid similar situations in the future.

 

[Jimmygill88]

I think that abusers look for places where they can abuse with impunity.
I don’t believe that being Catholic, or living a vow of celibacy turns people into abusers.
So abusers sought out places where they could abuse. The Church was one such place, and voila!

I think the Church is culpable in not identifying the severity and significance of the types of abuse, and in not dealing with it in a firm and transparent manner. But then hindsight is 20/20!

However, in certain circumstances certain elements in the Church have knowingly aided and abetted horrendous acts - eg., the Church (in the role of Catholic healthcare) under Franco in Spain taking babies from taking babies from families associated with the opposition, telling those families the babies had died, and giving the babies to Francoist supported to bring up - a kind of political genocide.

A clear straightforward analysis which (in my opinion) is 100% correct.

 

[Polycarp1]

I think that abusers look for places where they can abuse with impunity.
I don’t believe that being Catholic, or living a vow of celibacy turns people into abusers.
So abusers sought out places where they could abuse. The Church was one such place, and voila!

I think the Church is culpable in not identifying the severity and significance of the types of abuse, and in not dealing with it in a firm and transparent manner. But then hindsight is 20/20!

However, in certain circumstances certain elements in the Church have knowingly aided and abetted horrendous acts - eg., the Church (in the role of Catholic healthcare) under Franco in Spain taking babies from taking babies from families associated with the opposition, telling those families the babies had died, and giving the babies to Francoist supported to bring up - a kind of political genocide.

Agreed. This issues has certainly been one of the most diabolical attacks that Satan has come up with to injure his arch enemy the Church. It was insidious and implemented over a long period of time. The Church was warned by our Lord and the Apostles that there would be wolves in the sheep fold and I in many cases we were far from vigilent.

It is my opinion that this is not about priests that became pedophiles, but about pedophiles who became priests. It is my experience that pedophiles often attempt to get into careers where they will have access to youth and children,ie; teachers, coaches, clergy, etc. It is also true that in the vast majority of cases (90%+) in the church that the offenders were homosexual adults and the victims we’re post-pubescent males.

It may not be politically correct to say that it is a homosexual problem more than a meerly pedophilac problem but the facts would bear that out. This causes me to wonder whether the Church should be ordaining homosexuals at all. I know what the CCC teaches us about how homosexuals should be treated, respected and helped as they have an extra heavy cross to bear, but I don’t think that that means that we should ignore this spiritual affliction any more than we would let a visually impaired person drive the bus. By doing so we are doing them a diservice and playing with fire.

 

[Newsy]

Triumphguy,
I have never heard about these events–I have only heard about this happening to babies born of unwed mothers. And I have to say that given the attitudes elsewhere at the time, this may have seemed like the best solution for an unwed mother–not that it was right, but that it seemed that way. Of course, some of the other things which happened to unwed mothers (rough treatment and cruel words from doctors and the like) were totally unjustified.

But again, this happened in the Magdalen Laundries in Ireland, and quite likely happened elsewhere, but in “elsewhere,” there was no centralization since the various institutions were run by a variety of organizations.

i proposed this thought of mine in part because someone expressed distress about the situation in Ireland, and in part because the situation in Ireland seems to have mirrored a similar situation in other parts of the world, a situation not noticed because of the diffusion of authority.

If this is the case, and it does constitute a phenomenon apart from the Church, it might be important to understand it so as to avoid similar situations in the future.

The story that I read about the Laundries stated that less than 10% of the women in them were there apart from there own free will (most of these were “institutionalized” there by family members). It said that the average stay was 7 months. Even if the conditions were terrible, it would beat starving to death on the streets.

Is there more to this story than what I read? I read the article off of my phone, no idea where it came from. Anybody have a better source on this one?

 

[St_Francis]

The story that I read about the Laundries stated that less than 10% of the women in them were there apart from there own free will (most of these were “institutionalized” there by family members). It said that the average stay was 7 months. Even if the conditions were terrible, it would beat starving to death on the streets.

Is there more to this story than what I read? I read the article off of my phone, no idea where it came from. Anybody have a better source on this one?

As far as I can tell from reading various stories (searched for Magdalen laundries), about 10,000 women or girls were at one point in a Magdalen Laundry. About 1/4 seem to have been sent by the Irish government–whether this includes only those sent by the courts or also those sent from schools or other institutions is hard to say.

The articles say that the median stay was about 7 months but that 8% (800) were there longer than 10 years (?). Not all the women were pregnant as I had thought, some were there for petty crimes, some were unable to stay at home for various reasons, some were what we might call wild or out of control.

I did not run across any “horror stories”–the main problem seems to have been that those in the laundries were “imprisoned” in that they were not allowed to leave, and they would be returned if picked up by the police. They also worked without compensation (including no contributions towards any pension), apparently long hours, doing the work of the laundries (cleaning, mending, apparently even making cloths) as well as general upkeep such as scrubbing floors.

However, some of those in the laundries did apparently become pregnant, and they received no education, nor any help in returning to life outside the laundries. If the vast majority of those who were there were there for a year of less, then this may not have been too much of a problem for them.

 

[St_Francis]

The story that I read about the Laundries stated that less than 10% of the women in them were there apart from there own free will (most of these were “institutionalized” there by family members). It said that the average stay was 7 months. Even if the conditions were terrible, it would beat starving to death on the streets.

Is there more to this story than what I read? I read the article off of my phone, no idea where it came from. Anybody have a better source on this one?

As I understand all this, the Magdalene Laundries are not the main problem occurring in Ireland wrt the Church. There was a report released a few years ago on abuse of all kinds in children’s homes run mostly by the Christian Brothers, and the problem of sexual abuse by priests. In various ways, the Church in Ireland has attempted to hide information; for example, the Christian Brothers sued so that there would be no names of perpetrators or alleged perpetrators released in the report about abuse in their organizations; there has been no attempt by the government or the Church to help the women who worked for a long time in the Magdalene Laundries without compensation or contributions to their pension funds, and a recent refusal to release diocesan records to Irish government officials.

ETA: I brought this up not to discuss the particular situation in Ireland, but to bring up the idea that a lot of this stuff was going on *all over, *and not just within the Catholic Church, altho in Ireland the focus has naturall been on the Church. IOW, I do not believe this to have been a Catholic problem, but some other sort of problem, since it occurred not just in Catholic institutions.

 

[doormouse73]

Agreed. This issues has certainly been one of the most diabolical attacks that Satan has come up with to injure his arch enemy the Church. It was insidious and implemented over a long period of time. The Church was warned by our Lord and the Apostles that there would be wolves in the sheep fold and I in many cases we were far from vigilent.

It is my opinion that this is not about priests that became pedophiles, but about pedophiles who became priests. It is my experience that pedophiles often attempt to get into careers where they will have access to youth and children,ie; teachers, coaches, clergy, etc. It is also true that in the vast majority of cases (90%+) in the church that the offenders were homosexual adults and the victims we’re post-pubescent males.

It may not be politically correct to say that it is a homosexual problem more than a meerly pedophilac problem but the facts would bear that out. This causes me to wonder whether the Church should be ordaining homosexuals at all. I know what the CCC teaches us about how homosexuals should be treated, respected and helped as they have an extra heavy cross to bear, but I don’t think that that means that we should ignore this spiritual affliction any more than we would let a visually impaired person drive the bus. By doing so we are doing them a diservice and playing with fire.

Polycarp 1

could you give me a link to the 90+ statement you have said please.this is good evidence to show people who attack the celibacy of the priesthood,and the Catholic Church…

@ St Francis

you are truly right about institutions,the BBC is one of them the social servises of Britain is aslo a big one.even nurses in England lately have been arrested for the same…