About the Trinity

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

the wall? Come on. You know you wanted to say it.

 

[tequilamac]

That’s not fair tequilamac.

While I may not agree with Joshua on all accounts here, I don’t think that Joshua is saying that God is fully comprehensible either. He’s only saying that some things about God can be understood in human/natural terms even if the fullness of God’s mystery remains elusive.

That’s what I was saying too back in the other thread where you essentially nailed me to the wall for claiming to understand something about God’s Triune nature.

The whole point of me noting that God could not sin had nothing to do with trying to prove that God was not omnipotent. The whole point of me noting that God could not sin was that God’s very essense can seen as contradictory from purely logical point of view.

In other words, God is not limited by his limits.

This isn’t a paradox. This is a contradiction. And God is indeed a living contradiction when we try to place him within the confines of human logic.

And yet we fully believe this to be true regardless of what human logic might say to the contrary.

You know that. I know that. And so does anybody else who understands God.

Consequently, human logic cannot not even prove itself true. In other words, claiming that logic can validate all things is refuted by the fact that logic cannot even validate itself. More to the point, when people are using logic, they are really using their faith in their logic.

But notwithstanding that God cannot be fully comprehended according to human logic, this does not imply that basic aspect’s of God’s nature cannot be understood in human terms.

We know that God is Spirit.
We know that God is love.
We know that God was incarnate and born of the Virgin.
And we know our redeemer lives.

continued…

Excuse me? The post you linked to was between pro universal and I and had nothing to do with you . Unless you are claiming you wrote it not I or that you are pro universal. What are you trying to pull with this misdirection? What did that post in which you claim I nailed you to the wall have to do with you? Please do not use my posts written to other people to back yourself on questionable claims. And when you do, don’t ascrib them to someone else. That is *extremely *deceptive.

 

[tequilamac]

In other words, God is not limited by his limits.

QUOTE]

Not so. God is limited by His Own Word. His Word is sacred, holy and true. It comes only from Him. To say that He is not limited by his own limits is to say God can lie. In other words, if God makes a covenant with someone, He is bound to that Covenant as long as the terms are met. He cannot change His mind later. So that if Christ died to redeem us, God cannot change His mind and throw that out. If God says He will save, then He will save. God is limited in so far as God cannot violate His own truths, or break His promises.

 

[Rebecca_New]

utunumsint’s answer was excellent and should be carefully read and considered.

I have to agree, that is a really good answer-you go utu!

Also, Mother Angelica stated one time on one of her delightful programs that she had a near death experience and she was very aware of three separate entities.

I personally do not even try to understand the Trinity-I know my limitations I am just greatful. We are all blessed.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Excuse me? The post you linked to was between pro universal and I and had nothing to do with you.

Then what is this?

tequilamac:

1. I am not offended by you in the slightest. I am offended frequently by Mr. Ex Nihilo and Amox. Please do not ascribe that motivation to my answers.

Seems as though you were talking about me and Amox in that post. I even apologized to you if I offended you in any way here.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

I am asking you as a brother in Christ to forgive me if I’ve said anything to offend you.

I am once again asking you as a brother in Christ to forgive me if I’ve said anything to offend you. I am sorry if I offended you in any way.

tequilamac:

Unless you are claiming you wrote it not I or that you are pro universal. What are you trying to pull with this misdirection?

Not long after you said that you were offended frequently by myself and Amox, you said…

Which is why I can find my own brethren offensive but not you, or any Jew, or any Muslim, or any Mormon, etc.

Most Catholics these days believe the fastest ticket to Heaven is to claim to possess a knowledge or certainty that they do not have. However, even the greatest saints and Jesus too had moments of doubt. Jesus had an absolute agony in the garden and is last words in the passion would indicate a bit of doubtful misery.

But the “average Catholic” you refer to has absolutely no doubt or anxiety. Look around just this forum to see. You will find almost everyone will not admit to any temptation whatsoever.

This phenomenon is described in the Gospel of St. John. It basically means they are deceived and deluded by sin.

As a fellow Catholic, am I not one of your brethren in Christ?

You made it very clear that I was doing something wrong in previous posts by trying to explain the Trinity. You said that you were frequently offended by me by trying to explain the Trinity. And then you launched into an detailed explanation of how people who were doing what I was trying to to in that thread were essentially deceived and deluded by sin.

I don’t think you can make it any cleaer than that.

tequilamac:

What did that post in which you claim I nailed you to the wall have to do with you?

What didn’t it have to do with me?

If you’re invoking my name as being offensive to you, and then you give an explantion like that, explaining in detail why your brethren are offensive to you, it seems to me that you are talking about exactly what I was trying to explain.

tequilamac:

Please do not use my posts written to other people to back yourself on questionable claims. And when you do, don’t ascrib them to someone else. That is *extremely *deceptive.

Am I deceived and deluded by sin?

Look, I’ve attempted to apologize to you twice now. I am once again asking you as a brother in Christ to forgive me if I’ve said anything to offend you. I am sorry if I offended you in any way.

But I’m not going to sit back and listen to this if you’re simply going to make baseless accusations against me. I’ve done nothing to offend you as far as I can tell. And yet you’ve laid out some harsh innuendo against my character.

What are you doing?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Mr. Ex:

In other words, God is not limited

by his limits.

Not so. God is limited by His Own Word. His Word is sacred, holy and true. It comes only from Him. To say that He is not limited by his own limits is to say God can lie. In other words, if God makes a covenant with someone, He is bound to that Covenant as long as the terms are met. He cannot change His mind later. So that if Christ died to redeem us, God cannot change His mind and throw that out. If God says He will save, then He will save. God is limited in so far as God cannot violate His own truths, or break His promises.

Then why are you arguing with me about this?

That’s exactly what I was saying in the other thread.
Mr. Ex:

No. If God defines it as good, then it is good.

Without this simple distinction, one is in danger of sliding into the relativism of thinking that whatever they do is good because God will’s it.

Catholic doctrine doesn’t do this. Islamic doctrine does.

When I say that God is not limited by his limits, it means that his will is going to be accomplished regardless of whatever he can or cannot do.

To say that God cannot sin in no way limits his ability to accomplish his will.

It’s right in the Catechism…

275 With Job, the just man, we confess: “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted” (Job 42:2).

276 Faithful to the witness of Scripture, the Church often addresses her prayer to the “almighty and eternal God” (“omnipotens sempiterne Deus. …”), believing firmly that “nothing will be impossible with God” (Gen 18:14; Lk 1:37; Mt 19:26).

277 God shows forth his almighty power by converting us from our sins and restoring us to his friendship by grace. “God, you show your almighty power above all in your mercy and forgiveness. . .” (Roman Missal, 26th Sunday, Opening Prayer).

278 If we do not believe that God’s love is almighty, how can we believe that the Father could create us, the Son redeem us and the Holy Spirit sanctify us?

God’s power is loving, for he is our Father. God’s power is also mysterious, because only faith can discern it when it “is made perfect in weakness”. As such, God’s almighty power is in no way arbitrary. It is by his infinite mercy that he displays his power at its height by freely forgiving sins.

In God, his a) power, b) essence, c) will, d) intellect, e) wisdom, and f) justice are all identical.

I repeat: they are identical.

Therefore, nothing can be in God’s power which could not be in his just will or his wise intellect.

There’s no doubt that faith in God the Father Almighty can be put to the test by the experience of evil and suffering. God can even sometimes seem to be absent and incapable of stopping evil.

But I’m not arguing for this. That’s what some atheists do.

In the most mysterious way God the Father has revealed his almighty power in the voluntary humiliation and Resurrection of his Son, by which he conquered evil.

In this sense, Christ crucified is thus “the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”

It is actually in Christ’s resurrection and exaltation that the Father has shown forth “the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe”.

In other words, God’s ability to forgive is what makes him Almighty.

But only faith can embrace the mysterious ways of God’s almighty power. This faith glories in its weaknesses in order to draw to itself Christ’s power.

Don’t you understand what I’m explaining here?

 

[tequilamac]

Then what is this?

Seems as though you were talking about me and Amox in that post. I even apologized to you if I offended you in any way here.

I am once again asking you as a brother in Christ to forgive me if I’ve said anything to offend you. I am sorry if I offended you in any way.

Not long after you said that you were offended frequently by myself and Amox, you said…

As a fellow Catholic, am I not one of your brethren in Christ?

You made it very clear that I was doing something wrong in previous posts by trying to explain the Trinity. You said that you were frequently offended by me by trying to explain the Trinity. And then you launched into an detailed explanation of how people who were doing what I was trying to to in that thread were essentially deceived and deluded by sin.

I don’t think you can make it any cleaer than that.

What didn’t it have to do with me?

If you’re invoking my name as being offensive to you, and then you give an explantion like that, explaining in detail why your brethren are offensive to you, it seems to me that you are talking about exactly what I was trying to explain.

Am I deceived and deluded by sin?

Look, I’ve attempted to apologize to you twice now. I am once again asking you as a brother in Christ to forgive me if I’ve said anything to offend you. I am sorry if I offended you in any way.

But I’m not going to sit back and listen to this if you’re simply going to make baseless accusations against me. I’ve done nothing to offend you as far as I can tell. And yet you’ve laid out some harsh innuendo against my character.

What are you doing?

Then you need to stop overreacting to every perceived insult whether real or imagined. Yes I got offended with you on the other thread, not this one. Then with a gross exaggeration of how I responded you bring it into this thread.

Now look, in the nicest possible terms, not meaning to be offensive, let me lay it out for you:
You put out a lot of good posts full of meaningful stuff. But you also carry on long monologues that people just cannot read. There is a current thread, can’t remember the title, that I just completely skipped because you had just posted three posts in a row of approx 5000 characters each. It is too much if you want to hold people’s interest. You don’t just write posts- you write entire books. And then your fourth post after those you put in a confused icon and wondered if anyone was going to answer you.

Come on Mr. Ex Nihilo, you need to have some consideration for other people’s minds and time.

I don’t know about you but I have a family, kids, my own business, parish meetings, football and baseball practice, music lessons I drive the kids to and dinner to cook and laundry to fold. And I am tired at the end of the day and come on CA and trying to read HUGE long posts all written by the same person on every aspect of the thread is too hard and I imagine I am not the only one who feels this way. Once in a while is fine, but you do this constantly. Everyone does it once in a while, but you do it more than the average Joe Six Pack.

And the other thing: you do it from a soapbox. Not too badly, but you apparently assume that everyone you are speaking to, no matter what religion or education level is illiterate about Catholicism and/or God. In your efforts to teach us all, you frequently miss it when someone agrees with you and you will simply argue with them as well. And it is tiring and inconsiderate.

I love your posts. Frequently I look to see if you are on line when I come on CA as your interest areas are close to mine and for the most part we are in agreement. But these two things above that you do do not nail me to the wall. Rather they drive me up a wall That is the extent of my irritation. It is hardly anything IMO to get excited about and certainly does not require repeated apologies for offending. Get over my irritation, please.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Then you need to stop overreacting to every perceived insult whether real or imagined.

Saying that someone is sinful and deluded just because I’m trying to explain the Trinity is an insult. Period.

tequilamac:

Yes I got offended with you on the other thread, not this one. Then with a gross exaggeration of how I responded you bring it into this thread.

Then why did you say the post I linked you to was between pro universal and yourself and had nothing to do with me?

You were specifically targetting me. I apologized to you several times. And yes I am more than a bit offended that you’ve yet to actually apologize to me.

tequilamac:

Now look, in the nicest possible terms, not meaning to be offensive, let me lay it out for you:

You put out a lot of good posts full of meaningful stuff. But you also carry on long monologues that people just cannot read.

There is a current thread, can’t remember the title, that I just completely skipped because you had just posted three posts in a row of approx 5000 characters each. It is too much if you want to hold people’s interest. You don’t just write posts- you write entire books. And then your fourth post after those you put in a confused icon and wondered if anyone was going to answer you.

Do you mean this thread?

My apologies. But I’m trying to show the the limits of Sola Scriptura. Everything that’s been presented so far has failed to actually define it in any terms that can be defended. No one was even responding…even after I was waiting long times in between posting. So I was trying really hard to explain it in a way that other’s outside the Catholic faith could grasp and give them a chance to refute it.

tequilamac:

Come on Mr. Ex Nihilo, you need to have some consideration for other people’s minds and time.

So at first I’m sinful and deluded. Now I’m wasting people’s time?

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued.

tequilamac:

I don’t know about you but I have a family, kids, my own business, parish meetings, football and baseball practice, music lessons I drive the kids to and dinner to cook and laundry to fold. And I am tired at the end of the day and come on CA and trying to read HUGE long posts all written by the same person on every aspect of the thread is too hard and I imagine I am not the only one who feels this way. Once in a while is fine, but you do this constantly. Everyone does it once in a while, but you do it more than the average Joe Six Pack.

I don’t have your luxuries. With a child who is fully autistic and has great difficulty going around in public, we’re more or less confined to the house most of the time. We’ve tried so many times each and every day to train him, but after a while it becomes very time consuming.

Sitting down to the computer is one of the few ways I can actually “get out” in the world-- and I usually leave the computer on and then come back later to finish a post I started earlier. And since I really do enjoy sharing the Catholic faith, I thought that posting at the Non-Catholic section would be a good place to do this. I actually considered it a work of mercy to convert the sinner, instruct the ignorant and council the doubtful.

I guess I was wrong.

tequilamac:

And the other thing: you do it from a soapbox. Not too badly, but you apparently assume that everyone you are speaking to, no matter what religion or education level is illiterate about Catholicism and/or God. In your efforts to teach us all, you frequently miss it when someone agrees with you and you will simply argue with them as well. And it is tiring and inconsiderate.

Not only do I have an autistic child which demands I talk the way I do, I’ve also worked as a teacher assistant for special needs children for a few years. I’m fairly sure that the things I’ve learned from these experiences comes out in my writing style.

I didn’t think they were bad things either.

tequilamac:

I love your posts. Frequently I look to see if you are on line when I come on CA as your interest areas are close to mine and for the most part we are in agreement. But these two things above that you do do not nail me to the wall. Rather they drive me up a wall That is the extent of my irritation. It is hardly anything IMO to get excited about and certainly does not require repeated apologies for offending. Get over my irritation, please.

Like I said before, at first I’m sinful and deluded. Now I’m wasting people’s time or else irritating them by posting too much? And still no apology even though I’ve apologized several times.

Yeah. I get it.

I guess it really is time for me to stop wasting my time here.

Take care brother.

I’ve got better things to do than be insulted by my brother in Christ. Take care everyone. Think I’ll just go to confession on Saturdays and Mass on Sundays and keep my mouth shut from here on in.

 

[tequilamac]

I don’t have your luxuries. With a child who is fully autistic and has great difficulty going around in public, we’re more or less confined to the house most of the time. We’ve tried so many times each and every day to train him, but after a while it becomes very time consuming.

Sitting down to the computer is one of the few ways I can actually “get out” in the world-- and I usually leave the computer on and then come back later to finish a post I started earlier. And since I really do enjoy sharing the Catholic faith, I thought that posting at the Non-Catholic section would be a good place to do this. I actually considered it a work of mercy to convert the sinner, instruct the ignorant and council the doubtful.

I guess I was wrong.

Not only do I have an autistic child which demands I talk the way I do, I’ve also worked as a teacher assistant for special needs children for a few years. I’m fairly sure that the things I’ve learned from these experiences comes out in my writing style.

I didn’t think they were bad things either.

Like I said before, at first I’m sinful and deluded. Now I’m wasting people’s time or else irritating them by posting too much? And still no apology even though I’ve apologized several times.

Yeah. I get it.

I guess it really is time for me to stop wasting my time here.

Take care brother.

I’ve got better things to do than be insulted by my brother in Christ. Take care everyone. Think I’ll just go to confession on Saturdays and Mass on Sundays and keep my mouth shut from here on in.

Oh for pete’s sake grow up. This is exactly what I meant when I said you overreact. Look, I do understand how exhausting it is to have an autistic child. I taught special Ed for several years in Stockton and my kids were all severely autistic teens. With other problems, as well, not just autism. And yes I understand you love your religion etc. But it is not a good way to as you put it “convert the sinner, instruct the ignorant and council the doubtful.”
If you cannot take any criticism at all, and I mean at all, as to how you approach people who resist you, or to improve how you “convert the sinner, instruct the ignorant and council the doubtful.” then you are in need of conversion, instruction and counciling yourself.
I am sorry you are so offended. If people simply passed my posts over and refused to read them or objected constantly to what I was saying, I would be grateful if someone came along and advised me as to how I could do it differently. You just get mad.
Many of us have autistic children. Some of us have dead children too. It does not give yout he right to be so wscreamingly touchy.
Just shorten your posts a bit, don’t do four or five in a row, take a breath between them, and don’t lecture so much. Discussion or conversation is more reconciling than being lectured all the time. That is all.
God bless. And by the way, an exampIe of what I said above. I am so SICK of you calling me your brother. I am not your brother. If you had been paying any attention at all to anything anyone else wrote, instead of teaching us all, you would have figured out already I am your sister in christ, not your brother.
Have a nice evening and sorry you are so offended. But who is going to tell you when you offend them if not a friend?

 

[inJESUS]

Mr Ex-Nihillo, i do enjoy your posts and i respect your patience and efforts. I never saw anything insulting in your posts; you are a very calm and patient poster. Keep up the good work

Tequilamac, i do understand your stand but you see, on that thread, you debated Mr Ex-Nihilo and you both turned out to agree at the end You don’t always like long threads, i personally do if the topic is interesting so Mr Ex- cannot possibly satisfy all tastes

 

[tequilamac]

Mr Ex-Nihillo, i do enjoy your posts and i respect your patience and efforts. I never saw anything insulting in your posts; you are a very calm and patient poster. Keep up the good work

Tequilamac, i do understand your stand but you see, on that thread, you debated Mr Ex-Nihilo and you both turned out to agree at the end You don’t always like long threads, i personally do if the topic is interesting so Mr Ex- cannot possibly satisfy all tastes

Yes, In Jesus except for one thing. You are Catholic and you agree with it’s teachings. Mr. ExNihilo is claiming to correct the sinner and counsel the doubtful etc.such as pro universal. How many people do you know who are upset with the Church are going to bother to read 15,000 character posts posted bam bam bam? And most people who have left the Church will not listen to anyone who proposes to teach them.

So if correcting the sinner and counseling the doubtful really is what Mr.Ex Nihilo wants to do, all I am saying is he needs to take a breath between posts, shorten them to something that will keep the interest of the resentful, and step down off the podium. That is all. I am hardly calling him a heretic or a bad word. I am suggesting to him the reason why he gets no answers to his long, long posts. His style is sefl defeating. That is all.

 

[inJESUS]

Yes i do not have a doubt that long posts can have negative effects sometimes. But if the person is really looking for the truth, he won’t be bothered by long posts. We are Catholics and yet we spend hours reading. Pro is not looking for the truth.Pro is looking for pretexts for his rejecting the truth (if indeed he were Catholic) and Mr. Ex knows this.

We have an Arabic saying : follow the liar to his house’s doorsteps. That is, go to the end with what the person is claiming, and that’s what Mr. Ex has been doing with great patience. And the nature of the discussion requires long, complex posts. Mr. Ex could have shortened his posts if he did not answer Pro’s personal attacks, for which he is very famous.

You don’t appreciate it a lot or at least not all the time, i do and that’s what democracy is about

 

[tequilamac]

Yes i do not have a doubt that long posts can have negative effects sometimes. But if the person is really looking for the truth, he won’t be bothered by long posts. We are Catholics and yet we spend hours reading. Pro is not looking for the truth.Pro is looking for pretexts for his rejecting the truth (if indeed he were Catholic) and Mr. Ex knows this.

We have an Arabic saying : follow the liar to his house’s doorsteps. That is, go to the end with what the person is claiming, and that’s what Mr. Ex has been doing with great patience. And the nature of the discussion requires long, complex posts. Mr. Ex could have shortened his posts if he did not answer Pro’s personal attacks, for which he is very famous.

You don’t appreciate it a lot or at least not all the time, i do and that’s what democracy is about

Following your reasoning then, we should not be posting long posts for pro to read as he is disinterested in the truth. Exactly my point. Thank you.

 

[Lion]

Beautiful explanation, utunumsint.

Loginus, I explain the Trinty to my children this way. It is like water. Ice, steam and liquid water all have the same properties, even though they appear to be completely different. It can be tangible or intangible. It can be visible or invisible. Ice becomes liquid, liquid becomes steam, steam becomes liquid again, which can turn to ice or back to steam. No matter how often it changes forms, water is always water.

Like God, water is everywhere. It is in the atmosphere, in the environment and within every cell of our bodies…all at the same time. We drink it. We breathe it. We immerse ourselves in it. It is as vast as the ocean. It is so minute that we cannot see it at all. No matter how big or how small the portion is, water is water.

Water can be tranquil, soothing our souls. It can also be a powerful and destructive force. The gentle rain that brings new life can become the hurricane that extinguishes it. A drop of water doesn’t seem to have much of an impact on the world. Endless drops of water will change it.

Like God, water is limitless. Pour some into a glass and examine it. That very same water you now hold kept the Ark aloft as it covered the earth. It was parted in the Red Sea. Jesus was baptized in it. It may have even flowed from His side. It has touched trillions of lives before coming to you, right now, and it will touch trillions more long after you use it, consume it or pour it out.

Close your eyes for a moment and picture water. What did you see? Was it vast or small? Was it placid or turbulent? Was it in a natural or man made setting? Was it hot, cold or tepid? What feelings did it evoke? What are the odds that your picture of water is identical to mine? Whose is right?

Is it necessary for everyone to know that water is one atom of oxygen bound to two atoms of hydrogen or is it enough to know that water is water?

Now close your eyes for a moment and picture God.

God is the father. God is the Son. God is the Holy Spirit. He is seen and unseen. He can be touched. He can only be felt. He has a body. He is a spirit. He is a voice. He is the thunder in a storm and the whisper in a wind. He is in heaven. He is on earth. He is right here, with me, right now. He is also with you.

God is not limited by human understanding! Don’t try to be the scientist who must know God before you can know Him. Instead, be the child who accepts Him and loves Him because God is God. One God in the Trinity; a human attempt to explain what is unexplainable.

“Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but those who drink the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

Now that is beautiful !!!
I’ve struggled with this question as well… this is a wonderful post.
Although I’ve accepted that on earth i will never fully understand the trinity, these analogies have been helpful… thank you to everyone!!!

 

[Lion]

I’m sorry i had to go thru that personal battle of minds / wills, but thank you for the original post… it has definitely given me something to ponder and has helped my understanding.

Can i suggest that in the future people not use a public forum of interest to others, be used as a battleground … it is rather distracting