About the washing of hands, sign of peace and communion bread

[ThatOneGuy92]

At the temples of the Antiochian Orthodox and OCA I’ve attended, the sign of peace was passed. This was done by shaking, hugging, and kissing the cheek. A person would say, “Christ is among us” and it would be responded to with, “He is and ever shall be!”

I don’t remember what happened at the Byzantine Catholic temple I attended. Of course, it was a Saturday vigil Liturgy and there wasn’t many people there, so maybe I just missed out.

 

[malphono]

Interestingly, I have seen in Latin parishes the priest himself come down to the congregation, and I find it beautiful. Of course, ultra-traditionalists (seemingly unaware that the sign of peace was an ancient tradition of the Latin Church) complain vehemently that this is just a sign of modernism. I propose these folks know not of what they speak.

Yes, it may be the case that certain of the “rad-trad” elements indeed do not have a correct understanding of it, but it is more than clear from the rubrics at Solemn Mass in the Usus Antiquior that the kiss of peace traditionally had a place in the Roman Rite.

It seems to me that the issue with the kiss of peace in the Roman Rite is the way in which it is carried out. For one example, it is not a free-form “break” in the Order of Mass, and the celebrant is NOT supposed to mingle with the congregation for this. For another, there is no consistency in how it’s done, even when the priest remains in the sanctuary. It’s not a time of socializing, but of preparation for communion.

Anyway, I would venture to say that if the kiss of peace were strictly governed by a sober and consistent rubric in the Novus Ordo, (as we have in the Orient), most of the objections to it (the kiss of peace, not the Novus Ordo itself) might dissipate. Of course the lack of strict rubrics in the Novus Ordo (and even adherence to those few that do exist, is itself a huge problem, but that’s well beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Malphono,

Good point. But I’m not much of a stickler for form. If I recognize it for what it is - the Peace of Christ passed to the Church - that’s AOK by me.

However, what I felt very uncomfortable seeing in the Latin Church when I was not yet in communion with Rome were members of the congregation being invited to the altar during the Lord’s prayer and then those members of the congregation exchanging the peace on the altar with the priest or deacon. It rather confutes the whole purpose of the Peace. From what I’ve heard and seen, though, this practice (malpractice, really) has disappeared from the Latin Church.

Blessings,
Marduk

Yes, it may be the case that certain of the “rad-trad” elements indeed do not have a correct understanding of it, but it is more than clear from the rubrics at Solemn Mass in the Usus Antiquior that the kiss of peace traditionally had a place in the Roman Rite.

It seems to me that the issue with the kiss of peace in the Roman Rite is the way in which it is carried out. For one example, it is not a free-form “break” in the Order of Mass, and the celebrant is NOT supposed to mingle with the congregation for this. For another, there is no consistency in how it’s done, even when the priest remains in the sanctuary. It’s not a time of socializing, but of preparation for communion.

Anyway, I would venture to say that if the kiss of peace were strictly governed by a sober and consistent rubric in the Novus Ordo, (as we have in the Orient), most of the objections to it (the kiss of peace, not the Novus Ordo itself) might dissipate. Of course the lack of strict rubrics in the Novus Ordo (and even adherence to those few that do exist, is itself a huge problem, but that’s well beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[Loved_Disciple]

Thats a tough argument because if you ask any Jew, what they do today has evolved from what they did 2000 years ago. Very similar on how many traditions of the Church evolve over time. Since the Eucharist is very sacred to us, I doubt that we would have allowed any changes to the recipe of the bread from what it was 2000 years ago.

It would be interesting to know if the Church has made any official statements regarding what kind of bread meets the requirements to be consecrated and which kind doesn’t.

In our Byzantine Church, the congregation is involved in the right of peace. The little entrance and great entrance have the priest and attendants process around the interior of the church. Before the Divine liturgy all the icons around the interior of the church are incensed. After the gospel, each of the laity come forward to kiss the gospel book. I believe that those Eastern Churches that do not involve the laity in the right of peace or shorten the the little and great entrances are omitting some of the beauty of the Divine liturgy and are almost as inactive as the Roman mass.

Interesting. It seems like particular Eastern Churches exercise the authority to omit or add certain gestures to the Liturgy.

In the Roman Church, at least, the congregation participate in the rite of peace.

Sometimes actually “overparticipating,” but yes.

Well, yes it’s a meal but no, it’s not exactly “normal” in the sense that there are certain things which are prescribed and others that are proscribed for Passover.

I understand there’s the Passover meal and then aside a Jewish dinner that, of course, has to meet Orthodox Jewish dietary regulations.

At her house?

No, at what I believe is a (“Reformed”) Jewish synagogue.

Matzoh (or, massa, in the mizrahi way) is indeed flour and water and is only used for Passover. Standard bread, eaten the rest of the year, includes yeast and perhaps a pinch of salt.

In any case, the Armenians (including the Orthodox) use unleavened altar bread. So, too, the Chaldeans and the ACoE. Among the others in union with Rome, the Maronites and Syro-Malabars both use unleavened bread, although historically that was not always the case for the Maronites. The remaining Eastern and Oriental Churches (Byzantine, Syriac, and Alexandrene) use leavened bread.

But I guess none of us have realized that Jesus “commanded” His followers to use a particular recipe, according to the Pastor I originally mentioned.

The rubrics direct the priest to wash his hands after he has put on all his priestly vestments - this would not normally be seen because it occurs within the altar, behind the ikonostas.

Maybe so. But I’ve seen a priest arrive at a little Chapel and pretty much go straight to cutting the bread and saying the prayers for blessing it (unless he walked into the little restroom that’s close by and washed his hands in there).

 

[Loved_Disciple]

WASHING HANDS

Washing of hands occurs during Proskomidiya at the Zhertvennik table by priests. But at an Archpriestly liturgy also occurs specially during liturgy. Here is photograph of such hand washing by Metropolit Ilarion Volokolamskiy:

http://www.pravmir.ru/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/54.jpg

What is called Kiss of Peace is called the Trinity kiss (трикратное лобзание) between Church Servers. Here is such Kiss

http://azbyka.ru/parkhomenko/foto/fotos/fotor1262.jpg

Ah… Thanks for sharing.

 

[ConstantineTG]

It would be interesting to know if the Church has made any official statements regarding what kind of bread meets the requirements to be consecrated and which kind doesn’t.

There definitely is. Bread made of wheat flour and water and a small amount of salt. In the East there is leavening, in the West it is unleavened. Although leavening determines if it is licit or not according to the tradition of the particular Church, but otherwise would be valid nonetheless.

 

[Loved_Disciple]

mardukm;8718409:

.
Interestingly, I have seen in Latin parishes the priest himself come down to the congregation, and I find it beautiful. Of course, ultra-traditionalists (seemingly unaware that the sign of peace was an ancient tradition of the Latin Church) complain vehemently that this is just a sign of modernism. I propose these folks know not of what they speak.

Blessings,
Marduk

It seems to me that the issue with the kiss of peace in the Roman Rite is the way in which it is carried out. For one example, it is not a free-form “break” in the Order of Mass, and the celebrant is NOT supposed to mingle with the congregation for this. For another, there is no consistency in how it’s done, even when the priest remains in the sanctuary. It’s not a time of socializing, but of preparation for communion.

Regarding this I’ll just say that it’s important to remember that the sign of peace is precisely that, a sign. It symbolizes that we don’t hold anything against anybody and that we do our best to be in peace with everyone. Very important to remember what it is, especially prior to sacramentally reinforcing our communion with the Lord.

This is probably the last thing in some people’s minds.

 

[Loved_Disciple]

There definitely is. Bread made of wheat flour and water and a small amount of salt. In the East there is leavening, in the West it is unleavened. Although leavening determines if it is licit or not according to the tradition of the particular Church, but otherwise would be valid nonetheless.

I have to go, but if maybe you can share any links to any official statements I can refer to, I’d certainly appreciate it. (Like I said, it’s not for myself, but rather to understand why the Church does it and perhaps explain it to this Pastor.)

Good night +

 

[ConstantineTG]

I have to go, but if maybe you can share any links to any official statements I can refer to, I’d certainly appreciate it. (Like I said, it’s not for myself, but rather to understand why the Church does it and perhaps explain it to this Pastor.)

Good night +

Well, for the Latin Rite, there is this document called De Defectibus

dailycatholic.org/defectib.htm

For the Eastern Rites most particularly the Byzantine Rite, I don’t think there is a document but rather we stick to the same tradition handed down to us. So the simple explanation is, “it has always been done this way.”

 

[Loved_Disciple]

Well, for the Latin Rite, there is this document called De Defectibus

dailycatholic.org/defectib.htm

For the Eastern Rites most particularly the Byzantine Rite, I don’t think there is a document but rather we stick to the same tradition handed down to us. So the simple explanation is, “it has always been done this way.”

So sorry for not coming back to the forum even to thank you for the link.

Well, thanks a bunch, Constantine. I’ll have a look at it when the time is right.

It never fails to amaze me what one ends up doing to try to explain why we do certain things a certain way to those who question the Church’s authority so much.

BTW, have a great 2010, you and everyone else who may read this!

 

[ConstantineTG]

BTW, have a great 2010, you and everyone else who may read this!

You mean 2012, right?

 

[Loved_Disciple]

You mean 2012, right?

LOL

But the funniest part is that maybe the same day I wrote this I was making fun of someone who also wished me a happy 2010.

What goes around comes around, I guess…