About those Bereans

[Fredricks]

So please answer, if the Bible is the final authority then we should be 100% sure on which books should be in it or else we are not on agreement with the supposed authority that God created.

I am in 100 agreement

It would be a lie if the authority established by God is the book and that book then would have to be exactly one version to affirm only truth.

A disagreement is not a lie

If they do not convey God’s truth then whoever is affirming them is stating that what is not God’s inspired Word is God’s inspired Word, so a lie.

Have you always been Catholic, I am just curious who I am arguing against. I cannot fanthom a Catholic who calls the Orthodox liars?
I think that noncanonical books can be read for their historical and social context, not a lie at all

So please answer does it have to be the 66 books or not.

God Bless
Scylla

Yes, I believe the 66 are inspired

Then we move on to what version of the Bible so I know which translation is 100% correct.

Catholics believe that a translation is 100 correct?
Which one?

 

[VociMike]

Fredricks:

The Bible is perfect. We agree on that. You cannot just take one verse and go with it, that is what I am saying.
No one verse should be taken out of OR IN context to support some hairbrained idea.

They would choose Sola Scripture if they thought it was the truth.

We don’t know that the Bereans who didn’t believe (that is, came to the wrong conclusions) did not “do sola Scriptura right”. If they examined the Scriptures daily that would seem to suggest that they were going in to a lot more depth than just taking one verse and basing their conclusions on that.

They used sola Scriptura, and still some of them got the wrong answer to the most important decision of their faith lives.

 

[Fredricks]

VociMike:

We don’t know that the Bereans who didn’t believe (that is, came to the wrong conclusions) did not “do sola Scriptura right”. If they examined the Scriptures daily that would seem to suggest that they were going in to a lot more depth than just taking one verse and basing their conclusions on that.

They used sola Scriptura, and still some of them got the wrong answer to the most important decision of their faith lives.

Yes, People make the wrong choice. Do you believe that when someone is shown the truth they will always accept it?

 

[scylla]

Fredricks:

Catholics believe that a translation is 100 correct?
Which one?

Catholics don’t hold to sola scriptura, please answer the question then honestly. We do not have the problem you still have failed to address, please address it.

An authority cannot be multiple or then one of them is a false authority, you are the one promoting Sola Scriptura, so please answer the question.
Don’t dodge the issue.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Fredricks]

scylla:

Catholics don’t hold to sola scriptura, please answer the question then honestly. We do not have the problem you still have failed to address, please address it.

An authority cannot be multiple or then one of them is a false authority, you are the one promoting Sola Scriptura, so please answer the question.
Don’t dodge the issue.

God Bless
Scylla

Wow, once again, you want me to call people liars and say I am dodging, Calm down there Scylla. Why would I answer it dishonestly?
We do not hold that any of the translastion are innerrent, I do not know of any Christians who do except some of the KJV folks.
We hold, like almost all Christians I think, the originals would be.

 

[scylla]

Fredricks:

Wow, once again, you want me to call people liars and say I am dodging, Calm down there Scylla. Why would I answer it dishonestly?
We do not hold that any of the translastion are innerrent, I do not know of any Christians who do except some of the KJV folks.
We hold, like almost all Christians I think, the originals would be.

I have not called anyone a liar, I just want you to answer the question truthfully. Please do not misrepresent my statements and read them carefully, I just want a clear answer from you to support your statements.

Since you are advocating an authority held by Scripture I am asking you to identify it.
So you say that no translation is inerrant except for the originals, is this correct?
So the authority you hold has error?

Please answer both questions, I am asking simple questions to identify authority which you claim exists.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Fredricks]

scylla:

I have not called anyone a liar, I just want you to answer the question truthfully. Please do not misrepresent my statements and read them carefully, I just want a clear answer from you to support your statements.

Since you are advocating an authority held by Scripture I am asking you to identify it.
So you say that no translation is inerrant except for the originals, is this correct?
So the authority you hold has error?

Please answer both questions, I am asking simple questions to identify authority which you claim exists.

God Bless
Scylla

yes
yes

When making my personal decision(interpretation) to hold my views I relied on my imperfect discernment, an imperfect translation of the Bible, imperfect history, and imperfect tradition to come to my views of Sola Scripture.

When you made your personal decision(interpretation) to hold your views, you relied on your imperfect discernment, an imperfect translation of the Bible, imperfect history, and imperfect tradition to come to your views of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

The ONLY difference is that you hold tradition and scripture equally and we do not. That is the only diffference.

 

[scylla]

Fredricks:

yes
yes

When making my personal decision(interpretation) to hold my views I relied on my imperfect discernment, an imperfect translation of the Bible, imperfect history, and imperfect tradition to come to my views of Sola Scripture.

When you made your personal decision(interpretation) to hold your views, you relied on your imperfect discernment, an imperfect translation of the Bible, imperfect history, and imperfect tradition to come to your views of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

The ONLY difference is that you hold tradition and scripture equally and we do not. That is the only diffference.

Wow you do have quite a misconception of what Catholics understand as authority.
This is why. We believe in truth and that God preserves it. It doesn’t contradict and is not based on perception or whatever version of the Bible I am currently using.

What you seem to be advocating is that there is not truth and that the closest we can come is some sort of imperfect understanding that is based upon imperfect translations to come to an imperfect truth. Is this correct?

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Fredricks]

scylla:

Wow you do have quite a misconception of what Catholics understand as authority.
This is why. We believe in truth and that God preserves it. It doesn’t contradict and is not based on perception or whatever version of the Bible I am currently using.

What you seem to be advocating is that there is not truth and that the closest we can come is some sort of imperfect understanding that is based upon imperfect translations to come to an imperfect truth. Is this correct?

God Bless
Scylla

tell me exactly where I was wrong

*When making my personal decision(interpretation) to hold my views I relied on my imperfect discernment, an imperfect translation of the Bible, imperfect history, and imperfect tradition to come to my views of Sola Scripture.

When you made your personal decision(interpretation) to hold your views, you relied on your imperfect discernment, an imperfect translation of the Bible, imperfect history, and imperfect tradition to come to your views of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition*
what exactly do you deny?

that you made a decision
used a biblical translation
history
tradition
Which one did you not use?

 

[VociMike]

Fredricks:

Yes, People make the wrong choice. Do you believe that when someone is shown the truth they will always accept it?

Your question mis-states the problem. The Bereans who examined the Scriptures and yet ended up not believing were seeking the truth (else why were they examining the Scriptures at all?), but they could not recognize it. That is the same problem with sola Scriptura today. Those who seek the truth via sola Scriptura cannot find the full truth not because they don’t desire it but because they do not have the full channels of the truth. The situation is different in the Catholic Church because there a person who seeks the full truth will find it, because the Church (including its Bible) are the full channels of that truth.

 

[Fredricks]

VociMike:

Your question mis-states the problem. The Bereans who examined the Scriptures and yet ended up not believing were seeking the truth (else why were they examining the Scriptures at all?), but they could not recognize it. That is the same problem with sola Scriptura today. Those who seek the truth via sola Scriptura cannot find the full truth not because they don’t desire it but because they do not have the full channels of the truth. The situation is different in the Catholic Church because there a person who seeks the full truth will find it, because the Church (including its Bible) are the full channels of that truth.

So.
In the Bible every time someone does not accept Christ it is the failure of the Catholic church and every time someone does not accept Christ after reading the scripture and hearing preaching it is a rejection of Sola Scripture?
How is that consistent?

 

[Fredricks]

Scylla, I am keeping track of how many of my questions you do not answer even though you say Catholics ‘always’ answer them

 

[scylla]

Fredricks:

tell me exactly where I was wrong

When making my personal decision(interpretation) to hold my views I relied on my imperfect discernment, an imperfect translation of the Bible, imperfect history, and imperfect tradition to come to my views of Sola Scripture.

When you made your personal decision(interpretation) to hold your views, you relied on your imperfect discernment, an imperfect translation of the Bible, imperfect history, and imperfect tradition to come to your views of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition
what exactly do you deny?

that you made a decision
used a biblical translation
history
tradition
Which one did you not use?

This is the difference. I hold that we can know truth so your perception of our belief denies the ability to know truth.

I affirm the power of God to preserve truth and that that truth can be known and is one.

What you have said is that your authority is imperfect and can never be known as correct.

Since Jesus came to testify to the truth, my view is that He was successful, it seems your view says He wasn’t successful.

So as an answer to your questions,
Yes I used History, Early Christian Writings, my understanding of Tradition and the witness of one truth that the Church shows.

Not only that though I also used my belief that God came to earth and witnessed to the truth and it is knowable. I affirm God’s power to maintain truth and a unity of it.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[DeFide]

Fredricks:

Ok, what formula are you talking about? The link? That is not MY formula, it was just to show you that I was not making up what I was saying about Sola Scripture. Why are you so interested in semantics. I was just pointing out your oversimplification of Sola Scripture and the caricature you were arguing against.

I’m trying to pin you down on what is “sufficient”, what is “all that is needed”.

Your list says that the Bible is all that is needed, but it also says that a church authority cannot be denied. Which is it? If the Bible is “final”, “full”, and “sufficient”, why would anything else be needed?

This isn’t “semantics”. I’m trying to get a coherent definition.

 

[Fredricks]

QUOTE=scylla]This is the difference. I hold that we can know truth so your perception of our belief denies the ability to know truth.

I have not said you cannot know truth. Christ is the truth. If you know Christ, you know truth. I assume you know the Christ of which you speak. Why would i not assume that?
We are one in Christ. Amen

I affirm the power of God to preserve truth and that that truth can be known and is one.

We agree, God has preserved his word. Any minor differences among translations do not effect that truth. We agree. i am grateful that conservative Catholics and Protestants agree on this

What you have said is that your authority is imperfect and can never be known as correct.

Careful, we are talking about Gods word.
Catholics and conservative Protestants agree on this. Why are you creating a division when we believe the same thing about Gods Holy word?

Since Jesus came to testify to the truth, my view is that He was successful, it seems your view says He wasn’t successful.

Christ is not a liar. Goodness, you think I am calling Christ a liar?
That is not very charitable at all.

So as an answer to your questions,
Yes I used History, Early Christian Writings, my understanding of Tradition and the witness of one truth that the Church shows.

and the bible and we agree on the witness of the one truth that the church(little c) shows. Yes, that is true.

Not only that though I also used my belief that God came to earth and witnessed to the truth and it is knowable. I affirm God’s power to maintain truth and a unity of it.

I believe that Christ is knowable as well. We agree
Dont you see, we agree. We disagree on the nonessentials but the essentials are the same. You have accepted Christ. You have been baptized in the name of the
Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I know you do not think we are part of that church. Glory to God. You will be surprised.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Fredricks]

DeFide:

I’m trying to pin you down on what is “sufficient”, what is “all that is needed”.

Your list says that the Bible is all that is needed, but it also says that a church authority cannot be denied. Which is it? If the Bible is “final”, “full”, and “sufficient”, why would anything else be needed?

This isn’t “semantics”. I’m trying to get a coherent definition.

That…was…not…my…list…it…was…a …link…to …show…you…that…I did not just make this stuff up. I just said that.
I do not have a link to my churches views, that would give away my denomination.
Oh my opinion is all you want?

Ok, we use the Bible has the final authority…

 

[DeFide]

Fredricks:

We disagree on what “church” means.

Don’t leave me hanging. Why didn’t you tell me?

So far this is what I see as your position (correct me if I’m wrong):

Any group of people, using the Bible, will teach an indeterminate mixture of truth and error.

---

If someone came to your door telling you that, who would you assume they are?

It reminds me of a quote; “You must either climb up to Catholicism or slide down into disbelief. There is no steady middle resting ground.”

 

[scylla]

I asked if the authority you hold has error, you said yes.

I do not in any way state that God’s word is in error where you specifically said yes to that it holds error, unless you would like to retract your answers read my questions and answer again.

Now you have shifted to essentials and non-essentials. Would you like to discuss this?

I will ask questions again…
If I disagree on a nonessential am I still going to heaven?

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Fredricks]

scylla:

I asked if the authority you hold has error, you said yes.

I do not in any way state that God’s word is in error where you specifically said yes to that it holds error, unless you would like to retract your answers read my questions and answer again.

Now you have shifted to essentials and non-essentials. Would you like to discuss this?

I will ask questions again…
If I disagree on a nonessential am I still going to heaven?

God Bless
Scylla

I see, yes. a translation can have an error. God’s Holy Bible does not. I am not that interested in essentials and nonessentials, i consider nonessentials to be nonessential…thats a joke.
I am going to go read. The answer to your queston is I do not get to decide who goes to heaven. We both agree that is up to
God. My opinion, no.

 

[Fredricks]

DeFide:

Don’t leave me hanging. Why didn’t you tell me?

So far this is what I see as your position (correct me if I’m wrong):

Any group of people, using the Bible, will teach an indeterminate mixture of truth and error.

---

If someone came to your door telling you that, who would you assume they are?

It reminds me of a quote; “You must either climb up to Catholicism or slide down into disbelief. There is no steady middle resting ground.”

I believe that the Bible clearly teaches us the church is all those who believe in Christ and are baptized.