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Credo_ergo_sum
Guest
How do you even do that? You don’t just wake up and think ‘Oh, I was a buddhist/atheist/christian all along’.
Atheists don’t ever feel a crushing feeling of hopelessness? And you believe that yourself?
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farpinho
Guest
First of all, you should know that you are not alone. Most of us (me included) had been there at least once in our lifetime. It’s perfectly normal to question your faith, your beliefs, as you grow older and as you acquire education ans scientific knowledge, and suddenly, after you study science and history so much it would seem, at first glance, that it makes much more sense that the Universe came out of nothing (self generated, or always existed), that all living beings just evolved, and then, suddenly, big bang, strings theory, evolution theory, all of them makes much more sense than a personal creator God.
But, as you dig further into that matter, you will realize that you distanced yourself from God not because scientific explanation is more plausible than the existence of God, but because the scientific reasoning that distanced yourself from God is, by itself, very superficial. It doesn’t matter how logical and precise science is, it will never be able to explain everything, simply because the deepest secrets of reality lie outside the realm of science.
A well known philosopher once said “a little bit of philosophy drives you away from religion; a lot of philosophy conducts you back to religion” (Antoine Rivarol)
So, there are three ways by which God can make Himself known: by faith alone, by reason, and by a mixture of faith and reason. If faith alone isn’t enough for you to feel the existence of God, we’ll have to explore the rational reasoning.
First of all, we would have to define the main question “who is God?” Answered that question, we have another question to answer “if God exists, why doesn’t He reveal Himself to every single being so that nobody has any doubt at all of His existence”? And lastly, “what religion should I choose to guide me to God?” Let’s try to answer these questions, then…
(I will post the second part later)
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danserr
Guest
Why are you watching Dawkins and Mayer? They know nothing about religion are are more concerned with ridicule than rational argument. I see that you mention reading them, but what Christian thinkers have you read?
If you are starting from scratch, a useful place to start are the books of Lee Strobel. They are at a popular level for the beginner but deal with scientific, philosophical, and historical reasons for belief.
The Case for a Creator
The Case for Christ
The Case for Faith
They are inexpensive and fairly good. In the meantime, you can look at the materials on this website, which is also useful. reasonablefaith.org/popular-articles
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sw85
Guest
Read Edward Feser’s The Last Superstition: A Refutation of the New Atheism.
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J_Peterson
Guest
That’s beautiful. It reminds me of something I read in Thoughts in Solitude by Thomas Merton (chapter XI):
“We ruin our life of prayer if we are constantly examining our prayer and seeking the fruit of prayer in a peace that is nothing more than a psychological process. The only thing to seek in contaemplative prayer is God; and we seek Him successfully when we realize that we cannot find Him unless He shows Himself to us, and yet at the same time that he would not have inspired us to seek Him unless we had already found Him.”
It says basically the same thing as the poem. Don’t expect to feel anything in prayer except the desire to pray. Don’t trust your emottions, as long as there is a stuggle, God is with you.
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Bookcat
Guest
Extraordinary experiences – are by nature “extraordinary”
Normally we have reason, and the witness of the Church and by grace – Faith.
Not voices or visions.
I would suggest going and speaking with a Catholic Priest and perhaps even calling the Catholic Answers apologist line. (and stop watching Dawkins etc …waste of time and simply unfounded and not good for ya any more than say doing drugs… )
God exists – and hence you exist. He loves you!
In Jesus of Nazareth (and thus in his Catholic Church) is true life.
Normally we have reason, and the witness of the Church and by grace – Faith.
Not voices or visions.
I would suggest going and speaking with a Catholic Priest and perhaps even calling the Catholic Answers apologist line. (and stop watching Dawkins etc …waste of time and simply unfounded and not good for ya any more than say doing drugs… )
God exists – and hence you exist. He loves you!
In Jesus of Nazareth (and thus in his Catholic Church) is true life.
B
Bookcat
Guest
“Life is not a simple product of laws and the randomness of matter, but within everything and at the same time above everything, there is a personal will, there is a Spirit who in Jesus has revealed himself as Love.”
–Pope Benedict XVI (Encyclical on Hope)
“We believe in God. This is a fundamental decision on our part. But again the question has to be asked: is this still possible today? Is it reasonable? From the Enlightenment on, science, at least in part, has applied itself to seeking an explanation of the world in which God would be unnecessary. And if this were so, he would also become unnecessary in our lives. But whenever the attempt seemed to be nearing success - inevitably it would become clear: something is missing from the equation! When God is subtracted, something doesn’t add up for man, the world, the whole universe. So we end up with two alternatives. What came first? Creative Reason, the Creator Spirit who makes all things and gives them growth, or Unreason, which, lacking any meaning, yet somehow brings forth a mathematically ordered cosmos, as well as man and his reason. The latter, however, would then be nothing more than a chance result of evolution and thus, in the end, equally meaningless. As Christians, we say: “I believe in God the Father, the Creator of heaven and earth” -I believe in the Creator Spirit. We believe that at the beginning of everything is the eternal Word, with Reason and not Unreason.”
– Pope Benedict XVI (12 Sept 2006 Homily in Regensburg) (note he is not saying that there can be no kind of “evolution” involved in things…)
"The resurrection, then, is not a theory, but a historical reality revealed by the man Jesus Christ by means of his “Passover”, his “passage”, that has opened a “new way” between heaven and earth (cf. Heb 10:20). It is neither a myth nor a dream, it is not a vision or a utopia, it is not a fairy tale, but it is a singular and unrepeatable event: Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary, who at dusk on Friday was taken down from the Cross and buried, has victoriously left the tomb. In fact, at dawn on the first day after the Sabbath, Peter and John found the tomb empty. Mary Magdalene and the other women encountered the risen Jesus. On the way to Emmaus the two disciples recognized him at the breaking of the bread. The Risen One appeared to the Apostles that evening in the Upper Room and then to many other disciples in Galilee. "
-Pope Benedict XVI Urbi et Orbi message 2009
You are right to seek faith…in Jesus of Nazareth is our* true life.*
He is the Logos…the word…the meaning of our life and everything.
Make sure you read the messages from world youth day with Pope Benedict XVI
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2011/august/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20110818_accoglienza-giovani2-madrid_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2011/august/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20110820_veglia-madrid_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20110821_xxvi-gmg-madrid_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/travels/2011/index_madrid_en.htm
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/youth/index_en.htm
–Pope Benedict XVI (Encyclical on Hope)
“We believe in God. This is a fundamental decision on our part. But again the question has to be asked: is this still possible today? Is it reasonable? From the Enlightenment on, science, at least in part, has applied itself to seeking an explanation of the world in which God would be unnecessary. And if this were so, he would also become unnecessary in our lives. But whenever the attempt seemed to be nearing success - inevitably it would become clear: something is missing from the equation! When God is subtracted, something doesn’t add up for man, the world, the whole universe. So we end up with two alternatives. What came first? Creative Reason, the Creator Spirit who makes all things and gives them growth, or Unreason, which, lacking any meaning, yet somehow brings forth a mathematically ordered cosmos, as well as man and his reason. The latter, however, would then be nothing more than a chance result of evolution and thus, in the end, equally meaningless. As Christians, we say: “I believe in God the Father, the Creator of heaven and earth” -I believe in the Creator Spirit. We believe that at the beginning of everything is the eternal Word, with Reason and not Unreason.”
– Pope Benedict XVI (12 Sept 2006 Homily in Regensburg) (note he is not saying that there can be no kind of “evolution” involved in things…)
"The resurrection, then, is not a theory, but a historical reality revealed by the man Jesus Christ by means of his “Passover”, his “passage”, that has opened a “new way” between heaven and earth (cf. Heb 10:20). It is neither a myth nor a dream, it is not a vision or a utopia, it is not a fairy tale, but it is a singular and unrepeatable event: Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary, who at dusk on Friday was taken down from the Cross and buried, has victoriously left the tomb. In fact, at dawn on the first day after the Sabbath, Peter and John found the tomb empty. Mary Magdalene and the other women encountered the risen Jesus. On the way to Emmaus the two disciples recognized him at the breaking of the bread. The Risen One appeared to the Apostles that evening in the Upper Room and then to many other disciples in Galilee. "
-Pope Benedict XVI Urbi et Orbi message 2009
You are right to seek faith…in Jesus of Nazareth is our* true life.*
He is the Logos…the word…the meaning of our life and everything.
Make sure you read the messages from world youth day with Pope Benedict XVI
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2011/august/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20110818_accoglienza-giovani2-madrid_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2011/august/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20110820_veglia-madrid_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20110821_xxvi-gmg-madrid_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/travels/2011/index_madrid_en.htm
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/youth/index_en.htm
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CleverUserName
Guest
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Contarini
Guest
On what basis?
Why, for instance, exclude Buddhism?
The whole idea of going through the world religions and “marking them off” is presumptuous. There’s no way that in a single lifetime you could possibly evaluate fairly even one of the major religions.
It’s quite fair to say, “these are not live options for me for the following reasons,” but it’s arrogant and absurd to speak as if you’ve looked at all the relevant evidence exhaustively.
Start with the religion you have. (Baptist, apparently?) Do you have reasons to abandon it? What are those reasons? Do they constitute reasons for abandoning Christianity as a whole, or just Baptist Christianity?
If the latter, then since you indicate that you find Catholicism more convincing than other forms of Christianity (a reasonable attitude in my view), do you have specific reasons for being unable to accept Catholicism?
If you think you have reasons to abandon Christianity as a whole, then indeed perhaps you should look into the viability of the three religions you mention as non-Christian alternatives.
I think you’re underestimating “ordinary” means of knowing the truth. It just doesn’t work the way you’re demanding. Yes, there are stories of God revealing Himself in dramatic ways, but as you say they usually aren’t things that people demand. And I suspect that they usually mesh with more ordinary means, even if that doesn’t always get reported by folks eager for dramatic tales.
I tried your approach too, as a teenager. I sat by my grandfather’s grave on a mountain in East Tennessee and stared at the sunset and begged God to make me certain that He was real. Nothing happened.
But I think there are reasonable grounds for accepting Christianity, and I have not been compelled by any of the alternatives. (Buddhism would be closest, and I also find much appealing in Judaism though not in a way that would cause me to convert to it–Islam I find utterly unconvincing, except for its Sufi forms, and what I find appealing about them is independent of their “Islamic” character as far as I can see.)
And so I continue to be a Christian (twenty years after the moment I described above). I’m a more doubting, questioning Christian than some folks are happy with. But that’s how God made me. . . .
What do you find convincing about atheism?
I come from an evangelical background and I understand why you are approaching this in terms of some kind of “crisis experience,” as if God would just zap you and make you certain that your faith is true.
But as I said, that isn’t usually how it works. And one of the strengths of Catholicism is that even though it maintains the validity of extraordinary religious experience, it doesn’t demand that everyone have such an experience and be certain about it. It values reason much more than conservative Baptist forms of Christianity do.
God bless,
Edwin
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snarflemike
Guest
Excuse me, he IS an atheist.
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Swiss_Guy
Guest
Something that helped me was thinking to myself about the Apostles:
When Christ was arrested and Crucified the Apostles were scared and depressed and went into hiding. But something happened that soon their sadness turned to joy and eventually 11 of the 12 became martyrs. Now why would anyone give up their lives through torture and death and suffer extreme persecution for a lie? Why would all of the disciples turn from sadness to joy for no reason except to spread a lie? Why would St. Paul randomly go from being a devout practicer of Judaism to becoming a defender of Catholicism for no apparent reason? Surely he, a devout Jew trying to serve God wouldn’t abandon his zealousness in Judaism for personal gain.
Another thing is God LOVES you. He gave up his only Son for YOU. He died on the holy Cross on Calvary and his sacrifice goes up to the Father each day in the Sacrifice of the holy Mass because he loves you. God came down from heaven from all his splendor to become man; born in a stable, into our poverty. He gave up his life for you. I pray with St. Paul that hopefully someday you will be able to understand how much love God has for you.
Lord, I do believe; help my unbelief!
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners; now, and at the hour of our death. Amen.
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snarflemike
Guest
Do you have more faith in atheism’s unproven claims than in any religion’s unproven claims? Do you even realize atheism requires faith too?
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mafh
Guest
Since you seem to be in anguish over this, why don’t you give yourself a break from the search?
For example, promise yourself that you won’t think about which religion is the truth for three months and take the time and energy you normally spend to focus on charity work or some cause you believe in. Then, revisit the issue.
Or maybe you could pick one religion/group that appeals to you the most (even if you don’t think you believe in it) and attend service and events for awhile. Don’t worry about whether you believe – just enjoy the services, the fellowship, and the activities. Since you are confused right now, it might be helpful to choose one that doesn’t go whole hog on the evangelization theme, if that will make you feel uncomfortable. Then, after a few months, revisit the big theological questions, and see whether your answers can be reconciled with membership in this group. If they don’t, then try a different one.
If you’re not getting anywhere doing what you’re currently doing, maybe its time to try a different approach.
Just a couple ideas…
For example, promise yourself that you won’t think about which religion is the truth for three months and take the time and energy you normally spend to focus on charity work or some cause you believe in. Then, revisit the issue.
Or maybe you could pick one religion/group that appeals to you the most (even if you don’t think you believe in it) and attend service and events for awhile. Don’t worry about whether you believe – just enjoy the services, the fellowship, and the activities. Since you are confused right now, it might be helpful to choose one that doesn’t go whole hog on the evangelization theme, if that will make you feel uncomfortable. Then, after a few months, revisit the big theological questions, and see whether your answers can be reconciled with membership in this group. If they don’t, then try a different one.
If you’re not getting anywhere doing what you’re currently doing, maybe its time to try a different approach.
Just a couple ideas…
M
mafh
Guest
To the OP:
From your other posts, I see what you are only 16 and that you apparently either have dropped out of school (since you are seeking a GED), or were thinking about doing so… My advice above was geared to an adult. You have plenty of time to work out issues of religion – many people who have studied these things for decades still don’t have everything worked out. I would strongly suggest that you set aside your religious doubts for the time being, respect to your parents’ wishes with regard to your religious upbringing, and instead focus on doing well in school.
From your other posts, I see what you are only 16 and that you apparently either have dropped out of school (since you are seeking a GED), or were thinking about doing so… My advice above was geared to an adult. You have plenty of time to work out issues of religion – many people who have studied these things for decades still don’t have everything worked out. I would strongly suggest that you set aside your religious doubts for the time being, respect to your parents’ wishes with regard to your religious upbringing, and instead focus on doing well in school.
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triumphguy
Guest
Crushing hopelessness may be a very spiritual, and fruitful emotion.
Anesthetics can take away pain. However, you can’t use them as evidence that God doesn’t exist.
God spoke loudest through and in the pain, rejection and aloneness of his Son on the cross.
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ASimon
Guest
You’re excused. But he’s not an atheist. While his “Religion” suggests that he is, both the title of this thread and his own words explicitly say he’s not yet an Atheist. In addition, his post history shows that he’s been trying to make a go of being a Catholic for a few months, at least.
All of which is very much beside the point. Because what I was getting at was that most self-identifying unbelievers don’t find their lives hopeless or depressing at all. I certainly don’t, and I don’t know a single unbeliever who does. What I was suggesting to the OP is that he might ask himself why that is.
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cranster
Guest
You can read yourself into disbelief.
The thing about Listening to Dawkins and Maher is they have absolutely nothing to offer, but hopelessness and despair. So the question is, why would you want to abandon hope for an eternity of separation from God based on the Godless ponderings of a couple of guys who could care less if you live or die?
They have nothing of value to add to the conversation.
I love this video by Gerald Schroeder PhD, a professor of physics at mit who makes a very compelling case for a Creator.
m.youtube.com/?reload=3&rdm=m6y2kw3cn#/watch?v=yV-LzTO-xdg
Heres another excellent video by Father Robert Spitzer making a case for a creator based
on modern cosmology. Its only about 30 minutes long, not 2and a half hours.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=hYfaOJATh_U
And finally this video by Dinesh D’Souza addressing the new atheists
m.youtube.com/watch?v=mNhf140H42s
All three of these videos are well worth your time if you are swayed by Dawkins, and Maher.
God may or may not answer you in the way you are hoping, but that doesnt mean God
doesnt exist if He chooses not to manifest Himself to you in some sort of apparition.
I had an encounter like the one you are hoping for. I was approached out of the blue by Jesus, I think most of it was in my minds eye, but there seemed to be a phisical element as well. He asked me a question… He said, “Will you let me love you?” I said yes and instantly found myself immersed in an ocean of love, peace, joy, and the overwhelming sense that Jesus Himself is home. There is no way to adequately describe that experience. The only way I could respond was sobbing for about 30 minutes afterwards. It was the most profound life changing experience I’ve ever had. Thats why the arguments of atheists are hollow and have absolutely no meaning to me.
God will make Himself known to someone who is sincerely seeking Him. Slow down, take a deep breath, pray, and wait for God in His Own time, and way to answer you.
The thing about Listening to Dawkins and Maher is they have absolutely nothing to offer, but hopelessness and despair. So the question is, why would you want to abandon hope for an eternity of separation from God based on the Godless ponderings of a couple of guys who could care less if you live or die?
They have nothing of value to add to the conversation.
I love this video by Gerald Schroeder PhD, a professor of physics at mit who makes a very compelling case for a Creator.
m.youtube.com/?reload=3&rdm=m6y2kw3cn#/watch?v=yV-LzTO-xdg
Heres another excellent video by Father Robert Spitzer making a case for a creator based
on modern cosmology. Its only about 30 minutes long, not 2and a half hours.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=hYfaOJATh_U
And finally this video by Dinesh D’Souza addressing the new atheists
m.youtube.com/watch?v=mNhf140H42s
All three of these videos are well worth your time if you are swayed by Dawkins, and Maher.
God may or may not answer you in the way you are hoping, but that doesnt mean God
doesnt exist if He chooses not to manifest Himself to you in some sort of apparition.
I had an encounter like the one you are hoping for. I was approached out of the blue by Jesus, I think most of it was in my minds eye, but there seemed to be a phisical element as well. He asked me a question… He said, “Will you let me love you?” I said yes and instantly found myself immersed in an ocean of love, peace, joy, and the overwhelming sense that Jesus Himself is home. There is no way to adequately describe that experience. The only way I could respond was sobbing for about 30 minutes afterwards. It was the most profound life changing experience I’ve ever had. Thats why the arguments of atheists are hollow and have absolutely no meaning to me.
God will make Himself known to someone who is sincerely seeking Him. Slow down, take a deep breath, pray, and wait for God in His Own time, and way to answer you.
J
Jehannette
Guest
Read this:
fatima.org/essentials/facts/miracle.asp
And this:
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1S.HTM
It worked for me, a former atheist.
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snarflemike
Guest
I’ll agree that his situation is ambiguous.
I find this an odd position for an atheist to take. Why would an atheist, who will soon disappear forever, along with everything he ever did and all memory of it, be less likely to feel hopeless than a Christian, who always has the hope of eternal and perfect joy held out to him?
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ASimon
Guest
Still not my argument. I’m not the one asserting that believers necessarily find life more hopeless than I or other unbelievers do (though this precise assertion has already been made against unbelievers several times in this thread).
My point, again, is that millions of unbelievers are not drowning in misery or hopelessness due to their unbelief, and that the OP might want to consider why that’s the case.
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