About william tyndale

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So the moral judgement of the state being allowed to use the death penalty for crimes committed is the same then as now.

The extant of its applications cation has changed as societal needs of protection changed.

So in the old west it was moral to hang a horse thief.

The moral principle is theft, and just because we don’t kill horse thieves or car thieves today does not mean theft is morally relative. Nor does it mean the death penalty is.
 
Do you think it is moral or immoral to kill someone just for translating the bible?
Ah but it wasn’t "just’ for translating the bible. You are arguing from a false premise.

You clearly are not understanding the insurrection, civil unrest, and outright anarchy of the period, and the ‘reformers’ were the ones inciting this unrest in many cases.

It was an issue of treason or sedition and not “just” translating the bible.
If the answer is that it was moral then but is not moral now, that is moral relativism.
It is moral to use capital punishment for serious crimes. Sedition and treason are serious crimes. This was judged to be a serious matter in the time and place in which it occurred.

It is not moral relativism to understand that society’s ability to deal with serious crimes and criminals in a manner other than executing them has evolved over the centuries. It is not intrinsically evil to execute anyone guilty of a serious crime. They have forfeited their rights under the societal contract they chose to break. However, it is a great mercy to them if we do not execute them. And if we don’t have to, we shouldn’t. In times past they felt that this was the only or best way to deal with serious crime.

That is prudential judgment NOT a “change” in teaching.
 
Ah but it wasn’t "just’ for translating the bible. You are arguing from a false premise.
No, I am responding to the question that was asked, and was answered with what still strikes me as a clear example of moral relativism.

After all, if it is not moral relativism to say that act X is moral in one time and culture but not in another, what is?
You clearly are not understanding the insurrection, civil unrest, and outright anarchy of the period, and the ‘reformers’ were the ones inciting this unrest in many cases.
Kindly refrain from unsupported assertions about what I do or do not undersrand.
"1ke:
It was an issue of treason or sedition and not “just” translating the bible.
What concretely did he do other than translate and distribute the Bible that led to his death? Do you really deny that he was convicted of heresy? :ehh:
That is prudential judgment NOT a “change” in teaching.
Saying that what is ‘moral’ in a particular culture is a prudential judgement is moral relativism, surely? And why that phrase “NOT a “change” in teaching”? Who claimed anything of the sort, and what has it to do with moral relativism?

But anyway, getting back to the original topic, no one has yet explained what previous modern English bible you claim existed?
 
No, I am responding to the question that was asked, and was answered with what still strikes me as a clear example of moral relativism.

After all, if it is not moral relativism to say that act X is moral in one time and culture but not in another, what is?

Kindly refrain from unsupported assertions about what I do or do not undersrand.

What concretely did he do other than translate and distribute the Bible that led to his death? Do you really deny that he was convicted of heresy? :ehh:

Saying that what is ‘moral’ in a particular culture is a prudential judgement is moral relativism, surely? And why that phrase “NOT a “change” in teaching”? Who claimed anything of the sort, and what has it to do with moral relativism?

But anyway, getting back to the original topic, no one has yet explained what previous modern English bible you claim existed?
1ke left an exhaustive link on the subject.

Are you saying that it is moral relativism when the punishment for a crime is not always the same ?

A murderer today that gets 25- life and one that gets 15 yrs makes it morally relative?

Or is the moral principal the same and punishment applied differently due to circumstances in the cases?
 
1ke left an exhaustive link on the subject.
Which neither tells me of a previous modern English bible, nor which bible you were thinking of when you wrote that.
Are you saying that it is moral relativism when the punishment for a crime is not always the same ?
No, I am saying that by the definition I cited, it is moral relativism when you say that the same identical act is moral in one time or culture but not another. Like this:
IOW it would not be moral to kill someone for translating the Bible now, but it was then.
What is your definition of moral relativism, if I might ask?
 
Which neither tells me of a previous modern English bible, nor which bible you were thinking of when you wrote that.

No, I am saying that by the definition I cited, it is moral relativism when you say that the same identical act is moral in one time or culture but not another. Like this:

What is your definition of moral relativism, if I might ask?
It appears you are making a major error in understanding.

Perhaps the moral issue to you is the death penalty?

Is that your problem?

I hold that the death penalty always was moral and is moral today.

Moral relativism would be me saying that death penalty was moral then but not now. No one has held that position on this thread, except perhaps you which you can clarify.

If the death penalty for serious crimes is a moral absolute, which I hold it is. Then what can change is the need to apply the death penalty.

The death penalty is only a moral and just punishment when it is protecting society from the individual without other options.

This is what has changed over time. Societies ability to protect itself from criminals effectively using other means.
 
It appears you are making a major error in understanding.
You are crazily fond of asserting that I do not understand this or that, with no apparent evidence.

But this thread is not about moral relativism, so I am not going to drag this out any further unless you will actually address the issue of what definition of ‘moral relativism’ you are using that would exclude your assertion that [killing someone for translating the Bible] would be moral in that culture but not in this one. 🤷

Back on topic I still do not know what previous Bible you were referring to. Or, if this is the case, what evidence other than a specific Bible prompted you to assert that a previous [modern?] English Bible existed.
 
You are crazily fond of asserting that I do not understand this or that, with no apparent evidence.
Sorry I don’t know why else you would ignore my explanations.
But this thread is not about moral relativism, so I am not going to drag this out any further unless you will actually address the issue of what definition of ‘moral relativism’ you are using that would exclude your assertion that [killing someone for translating the Bible] would be moral in that culture but not in this one. 🤷
As has been repeatedly pointed out. He was executed for treason/sedition. I hold that then and now such crimes can justly be handled with the death penalty.

So killing someone for sedition can be moral then and now.

The bible translation was a side note to the whole thing, a piece of evidence among many.
Back on topic I still do not know what previous Bible you were referring to. Or, if this is the case, what evidence other than a specific Bible prompted you to assert that a previous [modern?] English Bible existed.
sorry this is the best I can do.

The second period coincides with the Anglo-Norman time, extending from the tenth to the thirteenth or fourteenth century. During this time, French or the Anglo-Norman dialect reigned supreme among the upper classes, and in academic and official circles, while English was confined to the lower classes and the country-districts. The Bible renderings during the twelfth, thirteenth, and early fourteenth centuries were in French, whether they were made in England or brought over from France. Before the middle of the fourteenth century the entire Old Testament and a great part of the New Testament had been translated into the Anglo-Norman dialect of the period (cf. Berger, “La Bible française au moyen âge”, Paris, 1884, 78 sqq.). As to English work, we may note two transcripts of the West-Saxon Gospels during the course of the eleventh century and some copies of the same Gospels into the Kentish dialect made in the twelfth century. The thirteenth century is an absolute blank as far as our knowledge of its English Bible study is concerned. The English which emerged about the middle and during the second half of the fourteenth century was practically a new language, so that both the Old English versions which might have remained, and the French versions hitherto in use, failed to fulfil their purpose.

Fourteenth century and after

The third period extends from the late fourteenth to the sixteenth or early seventeenth century, and has furnished us with the pre-Wyclifite, the Wyclif, and the printed versions of the Bible.

(1) Pre-Wyclifite Translations
Among the pre-Wyclifite translations we may note:

The West Midland Psalter, probably written between 1340 and 1350; some attribute it to William of Shoreham. It contains the whole Psalter, eleven canticles, and the Athanasian Creed, and is preserved in three manuscripts (cd. Bülbring, “The Earliest Complete English Prose Psalter”, I, London, 1891).
Richard Rolle’s (d. 1349) English version of the “Commentary on the Psalms” by Peter Lombard spread in numerous copies throughout the country (cf. Bramley, “The Psalter and Certain Canticles…by Richard Rolle of Hampole”, Oxford, 1884).
Here belongs a version of the Apocalypse with a commentary; the latter was for some time attributed to Wyclif, but is really a version of a Norman commentary from the first half of the thirteenth century. Its later revisions agree so well with the Wyclif version that they must have been utilized in its preparation.
The Pauline Epistles were rendered in the North Midlands or the North; they are still extant in a manuscript of the fifteenth century.
Another version of the Pauline Epistles, and of the Epistles of St. James and St. Peter (only the first) originated in the south of England somewhere in the fourteenth century (cf. the edition of A.C. Paves, Cambridge, 1904).
A scholar of the north of England translated also commentaries on the Gospels of St. Matthew, St. Mark, and St. Luke.
Several manuscripts preserve to us a version of the Books of Acts and the Catholic Epistles, either separately or in conjunction with a fragmentary Southern version of the Pauline Epistles and part of the Catholic Epistles, mentioned under (5). Cf. A.C. Paves, “A Fourteenth-Century English Biblical Version”, Cambridge, 1904.
Besides these versions of particular books of Holy Scripture, there existed numerous renderings of the Our Father, the Ten Commandments, the Life, Passion, and Resurrection of Christ, and of the parts read on Sundays and Feastdays in the Mass. In general, if we may believe the testimony of Archbishop Cranmer, Sir Thomas More, Foxe the martyrologist, and the authors of the Preface to the Reims Testament, the whole Bible was to be found in the mother tongue long before John Wyclif was born (cf. “American Ecclesiastical Review”, XXXII, Philadelphia, June, 1905, 594).
 
In my mind and this day and age no. But stealing a horse doesn’t warrant hanging in my mind either, as was done constantly just 100 years ago.

The world was very different then, the laws were different and the culture was different. It’s not right to judge them by today’s worldview.
No, we should “judge” them by Christ’s (Matthew Ch.7). So, based on Christ’s standards in the NT, as Christians was it justifiable for those Christians to strangle Tyndale & burn him alive at the stake for that??? :confused:
 
I just want to know who is william tyndale and why was he executed? Is he a protestant? I searched him on google but I am not so good in english that’s why i wany to make sure that my understanding is correct.
There’s a good film out on him called “God’s Outlaw” the story of William Tyndale. It’s played by Roger Rees, the guy who played Robin Colcord, in “Cheers.” You can find it in any Christian bookstore, or on Amazon.com.
 
No, we should “judge” them by Christ’s (Matthew Ch.7). So, based on Christ’s standards in the NT, as Christians was it justifiable for those Christians to strangle Tyndale & burn him alive at the stake for that??? :confused:
Oversimplified. Before I answer, do you believe the death penslty is wrong in all cases/circumstances?
 
Sorry I don’t know why else you would ignore my explanations.
I do not accept that I am ignoring your explanations.

If you wish to withdraw your assertion that killing someone for translating the Bible was moral then but is immoral now, specifically due to the culture, then that is one thing, but you made that assertion, I have given the definition by which I consider that to be ‘moral relativism’, backed up by an independent source, and you have ignored my question of what definition you are using by which that would not be relativism.🤷
As has been repeatedly pointed out. He was executed for treason/sedition.
So what concretely did he do other than translate and publish the Bible?
So killing someone for sedition can be moral then and now.
That is a very different assertion from the one I referred to, isn’t it?
sorry this is the best I can do.
Again, does not refer to an earlier modern English Bible nor tell me what Bible you were referring to.
 
There’s a good film out on him called “God’s Outlaw” the story of William Tyndale. It’s played by Roger Rees, the guy who played Robin Colcord, in “Cheers.” You can find it in any Christian bookstore, or on Amazon.com.
Yes, this is a very good film and well acted. Thank God for Tyndale’s work and bravery!
 
Oversimplified. Before I answer, do you believe the death penslty is wrong in all cases/circumstances?
I believe in the Bible that states that citizens ought to be in subjection to their governing authorities (Romans Ch.13). And that includes the death penalty for the crime of murder, whch was a capital offense regardless of what “age” humanity was in (the patriarchs, the Law, the NT era, etc). Of course, when Israel was an autonomous theocracy under God’s Law, capital punishment was the penalty for many crimes, since ALL sins are against God (Psalm 51:5). However, that applied to Israel, not the Church. So, no, I don’t believe the death penalty is “wrong” in “all” cases/circumstances. Obviously, capital punishment is justifiable for first degree murder (& it should be), but not for speaking out against the authority of the church-state, & being strangled & then being burned alive! 😦 And that applies to Protestant rulers as well. If I’m wrong, then please show me that verse in the NT where it states it’s justifiable to strangle & murder someone for doing what Tyndale did. The fact you responded “oversimplifed” rather than objectively acknowledging that was horrific really concerns me. :eek:
 
I believe in the Bible that states that citizens ought to be in subjection to their governing authorities (Romans Ch.13). And that includes the death penalty for the crime of murder, whch was a capital offense regardless of what “age” humanity was in (the patriarchs, the Law, the NT era, etc). Of course, when Israel was an autonomous theocracy under God’s Law, capital punishment was the penalty for many crimes, since ALL sins are against God (Psalm 51:5). However, that applied to Israel, not the Church. So, no, I don’t believe the death penalty is “wrong” in “all” cases/circumstances. Obviously, capital punishment is justifiable for first degree murder (& it should be), but not for speaking out against the authority of the church-state, & being strangled & then being burned alive! 😦 And that applies to Protestant rulers as well. If I’m wrong, then please show me that verse in the NT where it states it’s justifiable to strangle & murder someone for doing what Tyndale did. The fact you responded “oversimplifed” rather than objectively acknowledging that was horrific really concerns me. :eek:
Listen,

The thread has lost its footing in my opinion, so a couple thoughts.

In answering the OP, I sought to clarify an erroneous idea, that Tyndale “was executed for translating the Bible” That is simply a gross misstatement.

He was executed for Heresy, and Sedition…Capital crimes at the time for the Civil Government.

It was the Civil government that executed Tyndale.

I will readily admit that much of the clergy was corrupt at the time, and that the line between Church and State was almost indistinguishable.

This should be a reflection of the civil society of the time, not the Church (note that Protestants executed plenty of people for the same types of crimes)

Tyndale should not have been executed in my opinion, but it is understandable that he was in the civil society of that time. People were executed for many many things.

As you stated the death penalty has just application, and that just application has changed over time, from Israel stoning to death adulterers, to the execution of ‘heretics’ both protestant and catholic in the 16th century, to first degree murder today. The morality of the death penalty has not changed, but societal needs of protection have changed. I would like to see the civil death penalty abolished completely from western society as there is no need for it anymore to protect society, we can adequately do that by other means.

It is this APPLICATION of the death penalty for just cause that changes over time, and so whether an execution was NECESSARY or not, needs to be viewed in the context of history.
 
Listen,

The thread has lost its footing in my opinion, so a couple thoughts.

In answering the OP, I sought to clarify an erroneous idea, that Tyndale “was executed for translating the Bible” That is simply a gross misstatement.

He was executed for Heresy, and Sedition…Capital crimes at the time for the Civil Government.

It was the Civil government that executed Tyndale.

I will readily admit that much of the clergy was corrupt at the time, and that the line between Church and State was almost indistinguishable.
Hey, I was answering your question about if the death penalty is wrong in “all” circumstances, which the answer is “no,” as well as “when” it is justified, such as when God commands it & when society does the same in the cases of a person murdering an innocent person. So, are you saying that because it was a “civil” government that it somehow made it “justifiable” to execute Tyndale for the reason they did it? Yes or no? BTW, there was no “line” between Church & State in Tyndale’s time. A “crime” against the State was a crime against the Church, and vice versa. Tyndale was murdered for speaking out against the Church.
This should be a reflection of the civil society of the time, not the Church (note that Protestants executed plenty of people for the same types of crimes)
Again, one & the same. Protestants executing people doesn’t justify it either. It was wrong for them to do it as well. That’s why I don’t affiliate myself with any of those Protestant denominations either.
Tyndale should not have been executed in my opinion, but it is understandable that he was in the civil society of that time. People were executed for many many things.
How can you say he “shouldn’t” have been executed, & in the same breath say it was “understandable”? If you were a Catholic who lived in Tyndale’s time - be honest - would you have found the Church “corrupt” or would you have justified it & called for Tyndale to be burned, like a lot of people back then?
As you stated the death penalty has just application, and that just application has changed over time, from Israel stoning to death adulterers, to the execution of ‘heretics’ both protestant and catholic in the 16th century, to first degree murder today. The morality of the death penalty has not changed, but societal needs of protection have changed. I would like to see the civil death penalty abolished completely from western society as there is no need for it anymore to protect society, we can adequately do that by other means.
The “application” for the death penalty for numerous crimes were because they were against God, not because “times changed.” And, again, it applied to Israel, not the Church. Capital punishment for murder has stayed consistent throughout the ages.
It is this APPLICATION of the death penalty for just cause that changes over time, and so whether an execution was NECESSARY or not, needs to be viewed in the context of history.
So, was the “application” of the death penalty against Tyndale “necessary” based on the NT? Yes or no?
 
Hey, I was answering your question about if the death penalty is wrong in “all” circumstances, which the answer is “no,” as well as “when” it is justified, such as when God commands it & when society does the same in the cases of a person murdering an innocent person. So, are you saying that because it was a “civil” government that it somehow made it “justifiable” to execute Tyndale for the reason they did it? Yes or no? BTW, there was no “line” between Church & State in Tyndale’s time. A “crime” against the State was a crime against the Church, and vice versa. Tyndale was murdered for speaking out against the Church.

Again, one & the same. Protestants executing people doesn’t justify it either. It was wrong for them to do it as well. That’s why I don’t affiliate myself with any of those Protestant denominations either.

How can you say he “shouldn’t” have been executed, & in the same breath say it was “understandable”? If you were a Catholic who lived in Tyndale’s time - be honest - would you have found the Church “corrupt” or would you have justified it & called for Tyndale to be burned, like a lot of people back then?

The “application” for the death penalty for numerous crimes were because they were against God, not because “times changed.” And, again, it applied to Israel, not the Church. Capital punishment for murder has stayed consistent throughout the ages.

So, was the “application” of the death penalty against Tyndale “necessary” based on the NT? Yes or no?
So, the nation of Israel can still stone adulterers and homosexuals since God gave that law to Israel?

Or is there something else at play here…

I can say he shouldn’t have been killed and it was understandable because I can understand society a bit at that time.

In the same way I can say “Ignatius of Antioch should not have been killed by wild beasts in the arena, but it is understandable that he was since Christianity was illegal and criminals were killed by Gladiators in the first century”

Saying you understand why something occurred does not mean you think it proper that it did occur.

If Tyndale was murdered then, John Calvin murdered Michael Servetus…Is John Calvin a murderer?
I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed on him (Michael Servetus)…
Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man’s authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory.[36]
-John Calvin
 
So, the nation of Israel can still stone adulterers and homosexuals since God gave that law to Israel?

Or is there something else at play here…
No, they can’t, because they are apostate & there is something called the Church, which is made up of believing Gentiles and Jews, who are not under the Law of Moses but under grace. I’ve explained this distinction between the Church and Israel - more than once already.
If Tyndale was murdered then, John Calvin murdered Michael Servetus…Is John Calvin a murderer?
“If”??? How about “since”? Did Tyndale murder someone else to warrant the death penalty since that is the ONLY penalty justified in the NT for capital punishment? If not, then he was murdered. I’ve also explained that if Protestants do the same thing, then - YES! - they are murderers as well…which - again - I explained this already. Murder doesn’t “change” depending on whether or not you’re Catholic or Protestant or anything else. The only difference is that I’m not “justifying” their crimes like you are. 😦
 
In the same way I can say “Ignatius of Antioch should not have been killed by wild beasts in the arena, but it is understandable that he was since Christianity was illegal and criminals were killed by Gladiators in the first century”
No, Ignatius was murdered. His martyrdom wasn’t “understandable.” It was still murder in God’s eyes, which is what is all that is important. God defines murder, we don’t.
 
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