Abraham and Isaac!

[twinc]

correct me if I’m wrong but was Abraham justified by faith alone and if he had slain Isaac would this have been by faith and good/bad works - how about Isaac would he have been justified by the good works of Abraham - twinc

 

[AndrewA]

When God gives a commandment, the faithful follow it.
I dislike the separation of faith and works in this case (and most cases).

If God tells someone to do something and they do not do it, they have no faith, and have not done the “work”.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

correct me if I’m wrong but was Abraham justified by faith alone and if he had slain Isaac would this have been by faith and good/bad works - how about Isaac would he have been justified by the good works of Abraham - twinc

The question you are posing is difficult to answer. So, I’ll do a bit of scripture and widen the perspective a bit.

John 8:39 They answered and said to him: Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them: if you be the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham.
John 8:40 But now you seek to kill me, a man who have spoken the truth to you, which I have heard of God. *** This Abraham did not.***

At first sight, there is an immediate context that might make one tempted to dismiss the passage – but note carefully what Jesus requires the attentive reader to notice. In order for the above passage to have any logical weight, Abraham would have had to have the opportunity to Kill Jesus – or, in his identification – “a man who have spoken the truth to you.”

Your comment, by including Isaac is perceptive. For, one has to identify the man Abraham was going to kill, and then ask “Was Isaac a Liar?”, for Isaac speaks to the Pharisees of Jesus’ day, and also to us – which is why you are asking the question at all. Jesus did this to his adversaries on purpose; but notice what he automatically imputes to Abraham, That he at very least did not seek to kill a man who had told him the truth.

Compare and contrast your ideas with the following facts, except John 8:53 which is not a fact – but an opinion needed as background.

John 8:53 … than Abraham who is dead? …
Matth 22:32 I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.
Luke 1:55 As he spoke to our fathers: to Abraham and to his seed for ever.

Your question revolves squarely around whether saving or killing the Son of Abraham is the work in question:

Luke 19:9 Jesus said to him: This day is salvation come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham.
And, indeed, Abraham’s faith was precisely that his son would not be lost to him:
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Which is how Isaac was saved, but only because Isaac really is a Son of Abraham, which means his disposition and not his genealogy. This is the knowledge that Abraham and Isaac shared when they went to worship – and Abraham very carefully told his servants that – Those who adore God on this mountain will return to you, thus showing that Abraham had reasoned through Faith.
Scripture does not command "do the WORK of Abraham, but rather do the WORKS of Abraham to be (if) his Children.

It becomes tricky because of this argument,

Roman 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham hath found, who is our father according to the flesh?
Roman 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God.
Roman 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God: and it was reputed to him unto justice.
Roman 4:4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned according to grace but according to debt.
Roman 4:5 But to him that worketh not, yet believeth in him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reputed to justice, according to the purpose of the grace of God.

But Faith is a work,
John 6:28 They said therefore unto him: What shall we do, that we may work the work**s **of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

Again, Abraham was justified by more than one work – and this work includes “Faith” – and not just “work”, for believing is faith in the original Language. What Abraham sought and found, was his son.

— continued —

 

[Huiou_Theou]

And even the plural works of the Pharisees speaks against them, for:
Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus, whom you indeed delivered up and denied before the face of Pilate, when he judged he should be released.

This is the work that Abraham did not do.

Abraham received circumcision to make permanent what he had obtained by Faith: Roman 4:11 – but not to show off publicly as some would have it of Baptism!
In baptism we die and are buried with Christ Jesus, and so we rise with him – that is the purpose of this work.

Roman 4:13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed, that he should be heir of the world: but through the justice of faith.

Notice that it does not say, the faith of justice – but the justice of faith. Faith is a relationship – not merely something imputed. Justice depends on Faith – for the Just man shall live by Faith; not to God only, but also to his neighbor. This does not mean taking the neighbor to court, but rather living in right relationship to one’s neighbor. Justice is a way of living in harmony and peace, not just a gift.

Paul continues to expand this point:
Galat 3:6 As it is written: Abraham believed God: and it was reputed to him unto justice.
Galat 3:7 Know ye, therefore, that they who are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

And, it was an angel who told Abraham to sacrifice his Son on the mountain, and it was Abraham’s relationship with God that allowed him to Sacrifice – but not deny – his son Jesus. And it is because of the promised inheritance and that God had been fulfilling the promise even against the Pharaohs up to the time of the sacrifice, that Abraham KNEW his son would live.

Galat 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise. But God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Galat 3:19 Why then was the law? It was set because of transgressions, until the seed should come to whom he made the promise, being ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator

But God gave the promise to Abraham for one reason, and that reason is Abraham’s son. Thus the Author of Hebrew’s can say two things quite assuredly.

Hebre 2:14 Therefore because the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner hath been partaker of the same: that, through death, he might destroy him who had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil:
Hebre 2:15 And might deliver them, who through the fear of death were all their lifetime subject to servitude.
Hebre 2:16 For nowhere doth he take hold of the angels: but of the seed of Abraham he taketh hold.

The word “For” is short, and sometimes unnoticed – but it is a very powerful word, being that all said beforeit is caused by what follows it. “for” means “the cause of”. And this leads to the second thing the author of Hebrews notes, which is also a work of God – Abraham’s reasoning, and especially his blessing which is not always obvious:

Hebre 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Hebre 11:18 (To whom it was said: In Isaac shalt thy seed be called
Hebre 11:19 Accounting that God is able to raise up even from the dead. Whereupon also he received him for a parable.
Hebre 11:20 By faith also of things to come Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau.

Abraham accounted, and therefore reasoned correctly, and thus he obtained what was promised. The Sun rises on the Good and Evil alike – but with different effects in the end.

Only taking all of this into account could James ask the rhetorical question:
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the** friend** of God.

Again, it is works which make faith something – not faith which makes works something. A union with his son is the purpose of this relationship; and that is what Justice is. Abraham’s reputation comes from who he is: a friend of God.

Quite a bit to think about… Sorry it’s so convoluted, but that’s the way God unveiled it to us who are sometimes slow to hear the message.

 

[Pax]

This is a difficult question to answer definitively without a lot of analysis. Here is my take on Abraham:

Abraham is justified 3 times and in each instance his justification involves faith completed by works.

Instance #1
In Genesis 15:6 Abraham believed God concerning his descendants being as numerous as the stars, and his belief was reckoned to him as righteousness.

Instance #2
Hebrews 11:8 makes reference to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-4, and says, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.” We know this is a reference to saving faith because in Hebrews 11:1-2 it says, “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval.” Divine approval is given for a person’s faith only when it is a saving faith.

Instance #3
James 2:21-23 makes reference to Abraham having faith when he was tested and was to sacrifice his son Isaac upon the altar(Gen 22:1-12) and James says that the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.” (also see 1 Mac. 2:52. In addressing this instance it says: “Was not Abraham found faithful when tested [Gn 22:1ff], and it was reckoned to him as righteousness?”)

Instance #1 is universally accepted as an example of Abraham being justified.

We will now examine the instances labeled #2 and #3 in detail.

James mentions that Abraham was justified when he offered Isaac upon the altar. The passage reads as follows:

James 2:21-24

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.

–The passage clearly states that this episode fulfills his faith and thus his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

Some may claim that James 2:21 uses the word “when” to indicate that Abraham was already justified “when” he was going to sacrifice Isaac, and that this “when” is a reference to Abraham’s justification in Genesis 15:6. They try to substantiate this by saying that James would have otherwise used the word “by.” They will also claim that his later statement in verse 23 that “…the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness; and he was called the friend of God,” proves that the justification is only found in Genesis 15:6. As already shown above, 1 Mac. 2:52 shows otherwise.

Any attempt to make a production out of the word “by” which is not in the text versus the word “when” which is in the text will fail. James asks a rhetorical question saying “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?”

Even a child reading this text will know that the apostle is telling us that Abraham was justified at the point in time “when” he offered his son Isaac upon the altar. The word “by” is not necessary to make the case and the word “when” does nothing to support the opposing view. The main reason for this is that the contention concerning the word “when” is flawed involves the way some attempt to connect it to Gen 15:6. Please note that James makes a complete thought that Abraham was justified in offering Isaac. It is only after making this complete thought that James goes on to say, “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,” Now think about this: Abraham believed God and he was on the verge of sacrificing Isaac. In this, we clearly see the faith of Abraham. His faith and trust in God was completed by his willingness to offer his son upon the altar.

Once James clearly makes those points he then, and only then, uses the term “reckoned as righteousness” as Paul does concerning justification. This is deliberate on his part and is designed to clarify misunderstandings that did and could emerge concerning Paul’s teaching. James says, "and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” This phrase is chosen by James to indicate that the righteousness that he is talking about is the same righteousness that Paul is talking about. He uses, however, a different instance in Abraham’s life than Paul does and this is crucial. If James was talking about the promise concerning descendents as the only justifying event then he would have used that example as Paul did, but he had an obvious purpose for making the connection using a different instance in Abraham’s life.

James is not talking about Abraham already being righteous in the instance of Gen 15:6 by using the word “when.” It is a fatal mistake to assume that he must have meant that very thing, when he clearly did not.

The text of James is inspired and the inspired word tramples that assumption by making reference to Rahab. James uses the word “when” in reference to Rahab just as he uses the word “when” in reference to Abraham. The passage on Rahab says:

James 2:25
“And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works **when **she received the messengers and sent them out another way?”

James uses a rhetorical question in both instances. James uses the word “when” in both Abraham’s and Rahab’s examples. In both cases, justification is directly tied to the particular events in question. Neither applies to different events in their lives.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

Now we can be even more certain of these statements about Rahab because in Hebrews 11:38 Rahab is once again mentioned as one of those that acted in faith and received “divine approval.” Once again, it is important to point out that Hebrews 11 begins with the following:

“NOW FAITH is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.”(Heb 11:1-3)

The passage then goes on to mention the faith of all of the many holy patriarchs, prophets, and martyrs of the OT including Abraham and Rahab.

In Hebrews 11:4 it says:

“By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous…” Abraham and Rahab are in the group listed after the statement about Abel, and also received approval as righteous in the instances cited.

Now let’s take a look at something very important.

In Genesis 15:6 we are told that “Abraham believed God concerning his descendants being as numerous as the stars, and his belief was reckoned to him as righteousness.”

The apostle Paul makes reference to this instance in his epistle to the Romans. In this regard he says:

Romans 4:16-25

That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants–not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”–in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations; as he had been told, “So shall your descendants be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “reckoned to him as righteousness.” But the words, “it was reckoned to him,” were written not for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Here is what we can learn from this:

Paul gives his explanation and narrative about Abraham and then says, "This is why his faith was “reckoned to him as righteousness.” Paul mentions this so that we will examine and understand what the reasons are for this faith to be reckoned as righteousness. The reasons are first of all based on grace, and the promise is “descendents that would be as numerous as the stars and that he would father many nations.” So what are the reasons that Abraham’s faith was reckoned as righteousness?

Paul tells us that:

1. “In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations; as he had been told,”
2. “He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb.”
3. “No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.”

These three points are significant in several ways. Each one of them contains an element of works on the part of Abraham that satisfied and pleased God. It is through these things in faith that Abraham receives divine approval.

The most telling part of this is in reason #2. We have to recognize that Abraham was, as Paul points out, “as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old.” Moreover, Sarah was by this time barren. This combination would normally mean that there would be no children. Yet God promised Abraham that he would be the father of nations and that his descendents would be as numerous as the stars.

By grace, faith, and the power of God Abraham and Sarah gave birth to Isaac. Thus the promise was fulfilled.

A crucial aspect of this is revealed to us by Paul when he says that Abraham was about a hundred years old and as good as dead and that Sarah was barren. Paul is delicately and courteously making it clear that Abraham was too old to sire children. Likewise, he states that Sarah was barren. In Genesis 18:12 we are told that Sarah laughs upon hearing that she and Abraham will bear children.

The passage says: "So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have grown old, and my husband is old, shall I have pleasure?”

cont. on next post:

 

[Pax]

This again is a delicately stated phrase describing the lack of a sex life of this couple at that stage of their lives. Nevertheless, these two people believed God. Moreover, they engaged in marital relations and God blessed them with Isaac and God fulfilled the promise.

The promise would not have been fulfilled had Abraham not had relations with Sarah. Abraham and Sarah were pretty much incapable of marital relations and most certainly child bearing at that stage in their lives, but they believed God and engaged in marital relations. The ability and power to do so were granted to them by way of God’s grace. By grace and faith they begat Isaac.

The same kind of thing is evident in reading Hebrews chapter 11. Henry’s Concise Commentary recognizes that Hebrews Chapter 11 is talking about the justifying faith of the patriarchs, prophets, and martyrs of the Old Testament. Henry’s Commentary says:

“Text: - Ver. 1-3 Faith always has been the mark of God’s servants, from the beginning of the world. Where the principle is planted by the regenerating Spirit of God, it will cause the truth to be received, concerning justification by the sufferings and merits of Christ. And the same things that are the object of our hope, are the object of our faith. It is a firm persuasion and expectation, that God will perform all he has promised to us in Christ.”

Hebrews Chapter 11 tells us that:

Verse 4: By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous,

Verse 5: By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God.

Verse 6: And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Verse 7: By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, took heed and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; by this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness which comes by faith.

Verses 8-10: By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Verses 11-12: By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.

Verse 13.: These all died in faith.

In verse 31, Rahab is also mentioned and we know from James that she was **“justified” **in that example.

This is righteousness and justification and every example is tied to an event. This is made very explicit in Hebrews when the author talks about Abel as his initial example. It is also eminently clear that the faith of these individuals would be meaningless if they defied God and failed to live out their faith in the actions described above. None of them would have received divine approval. All of those mentioned are examples of OT justified saints.

We will now look once again at Sarah. Let’s start with Genesis where Abraham’s faith is reckoned to him as righteousness. This faith pertains to the promise of off spring. At that point in time Abraham was still called Abram and his wife was still called Sarai. God then makes his covenant with Abraham.

In Gen 17:4-8 it says:

“Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you. And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. And I will give to you, and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

In Gen 17:15-16 it says this:

"And God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. I will bless her, and moreover I will give you a son by her; I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall come from her.”

cont. on next post:

 

[Pax]

Scripture always speaks through the idea of fatherhood and Abraham is no exception. Even though Sarah is not mentioned as having her faith reckoned as righteousness we can easily see that this is the case. She receives the same blessings and a name change just as Abraham did. This demonstrates God’s favor and approval along with the covenant relationship established with Sarah in the same fashion as it is established with Abraham. Sarah, like Abraham believed God and believed his promise concerning offspring.

Hebrews 11:11 specifically mentions this about Sarah by stating:

“By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised.”

This is exactly the same thing that Abraham did and the connection is unmistakable when Paul says in Romans 4:3-13 that:

“For what does the scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.’ … We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness…How then was it reckoned to him?..The promise to Abraham and his descendants, that they should inherit the world, did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.”

Clearly, both Abraham and Sarah were justified by faith and their belief that God would keep his promises concerning them parenting many off spring and many nations, and that kings would come from them. The justification of Sarah in Genesis 15:6 is very obvious. Likewise, this incident is referred to in Hebrews 11:11. Every instance of a patriarch, prophet, and martyr in Hebrews 11 concerns faith and justification. This includes the reference to Abraham’s faith and justification as it pertains to his receiving divine approval for leaving his home land to sojourn to a foreign country by trusting God. This is a reference to instance #2 of Abraham’s justification.

There is one more reference to Abraham’s justification in the NT that does not refer to Genesis 15:6. In Galatians 3:5-9, Paul says the following reference to instance #2:

Gal 3:5-9

Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? Thus Abraham “believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” So you see that it is men of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are men of faith are blessed with Abraham who had faith.

This quote is a reference to Abraham’s justification in Genesis 12:1-4 which says:

Gen 12:1-4

Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves.” So Abram went, as the Lord had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

Galatians 3:5-9 makes it clear that the belief that Abraham had in this instance came by way of the Spirit and faith, and that as a result “it was reckoned to him as righteousness” just as his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness in Genesis 15:6. Like James, Paul quite naturally uses the phrase “reckoned to him as righteousness” in referring to an instance of Abraham’s justification other than the instance cited by Paul in Genesis 15:16 where the phrase is found. Moreover, Paul may very well be the author of the Book of Hebrews in which he speaks of Abraham being justified in Genesis 12:1-4.

Abraham was clearly justified on three separate occasions. Moreover, each instance is completed by works. If these instances had not been completed by works, the faith of Abraham would be rendered meaningless.

I hope this helps.

 

[twinc]

Scripture always speaks through the idea of fatherhood and Abraham is no exception. Even though Sarah is not mentioned as having her faith reckoned as righteousness we can easily see that this is the case. She receives the same blessings and a name change just as Abraham did. This demonstrates God’s favor and approval along with the covenant relationship established with Sarah in the same fashion as it is established with Abraham. Sarah, like Abraham believed God and believed his promise concerning offspring.

Hebrews 11:11 specifically mentions this about Sarah by stating:

This is exactly the same thing that Abraham did and the connection is unmistakable when Paul says in Romans 4:3-13 that:

Clearly, both Abraham and Sarah were justified by faith and their belief that God would keep his promises concerning them parenting many off spring and many nations, and that kings would come from them. The justification of Sarah in Genesis 15:6 is very obvious. Likewise, this incident is referred to in Hebrews 11:11. Every instance of a patriarch, prophet, and martyr in Hebrews 11 concerns faith and justification. This includes the reference to Abraham’s faith and justification as it pertains to his receiving divine approval for leaving his home land to sojourn to a foreign country by trusting God. This is a reference to instance #2 of Abraham’s justification.

There is one more reference to Abraham’s justification in the NT that does not refer to Genesis 15:6. In Galatians 3:5-9, Paul says the following reference to instance #2:

Gal 3:5-9
This quote is a reference to Abraham’s justification in Genesis 12:1-4 which says:

Gen 12:1-4

Galatians 3:5-9 makes it clear that the belief that Abraham had in this instance came by way of the Spirit and faith, and that as a result “it was reckoned to him as righteousness” just as his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness in Genesis 15:6. Like James, Paul quite naturally uses the phrase “reckoned to him as righteousness” in referring to an instance of Abraham’s justification other than the instance cited by Paul in Genesis 15:16 where the phrase is found. Moreover, Paul may very well be the author of the Book of Hebrews in which he speaks of Abraham being justified in Genesis 12:1-4.

Abraham was clearly justified on three separate occasions. Moreover, each instance is completed by works. If these instances had not been completed by works, the faith of Abraham would be rendered meaningless.

I hope this helps.

sorry - it does not help and is just words on top of more words,and so I simply ask for a simple answer what simple good work did Sarah do except to believe and have faith - she had presumably done all her good works up to then and for a long time just simply trying to conceive - so here as in the case oif Abraham and all other miracles,including that of salvation impinges not on works but on faith and Jesus Himself said and says to us even now “go,thy faith has made thee whole” - no mention of “thy faith and works has made thee whole” - twinc

 

[Pax]

sorry - it does not help and is just words on top of more words,and so I simply ask for a simple answer what simple good work did Sarah do except to believe and have faith - she had presumably done all her good works up to then and for a long time just simply trying to conceive - so here as in the case oif Abraham and all other miracles,including that of salvation impinges not on works but on faith and Jesus Himself said and says to us even now “go,thy faith has made thee whole” - no mention of “thy faith and works has made thee whole”

twinc in Christ,

You are setting up a straw man argument. I did not suggest or contend that Sarah did good works to obtain salvation preceding her good work of faith. Please be advised that works without faith are sin(they fall short) as pointed out by Paul in Romans 14:23. Likewise, faith without works is dead per James 2. Likewise, James carefully and forcefully makes the point that “faith is completed by works.”[James2:22]

Now, my commentary was not just a lot of words. I carefully demonstrated the relationship of faith and works with numerous examples from scripture that included Sarah. All of the saved are saved by the grace of God. Their faith is by way of God’s and the works are also by way of God’s grace. Eph 2:8-10 is particularly helpful here and it reads as follows:

1. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–9. not because of works, lest any man should boast.10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Please note that none of the works come before God’s gracious gift of faith nor are the works of ourselves. We are the Father’s workmanship…we are not our own workmanship. We are made a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works. We do not make ourselves a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works. Likewise, the good works are not of our creation. The good works are prepared by the Father that we should walk in them. Moreover, the Father prepared these works in advance of our justification. It is all of the Father’s work within us from start to finish, and without the good works there is no salvation, because the lack of good works and sinfulness are not from God, but from us and out willful disobedience.

Eph 2:8-10 is the perfect bridge to understanding James 2 and why salvation is not by faith alone.

If you disagree with the lengthy commentary that I presented earlier, perhaps you could present point by point counter arguments against the exegesis as it was presented.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

… Jesus Himself said and says to us even now “go,thy faith has made thee whole” - no mention of “thy faith and works has made thee whole” - twinc

twinc in Christ,

Actually, Jesus makes the connection that you deny numerous times and in many various ways. I’ll give you a couple of specific occasions to the contrary.

After Jesus healed the man that was lame and told him to pick up his pallet and walk, we find the following in John 5:14:

Afterward, Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse befall you.”

We also read this in Luke 17:5-10

The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” And the Lord said, "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this sycamine tree, ‘Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. “Will any one of you, who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep, say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down at table’? Will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, and gird yourself and serve me, till I eat and drink; and afterward you shall eat and drink’? Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? ** So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you**, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’”

It seems that Jesus makes a huge connection between faith and obedience, and I can bring a lot more scripture to bear on this point if needed. Hopefully, this is sufficient to make the point.

God bless.

 

[twinc]

twinc in Christ,

You are setting up a straw man argument. I did not suggest or contend that Sarah did good works to obtain salvation preceding her good work of faith. Please be advised that works without faith are sin(they fall short) as pointed out by Paul in Romans 14:23. Likewise, faith without works is dead per James 2. Likewise, James carefully and forcefully makes the point that “faith is completed by works.”[James2:22]

Now, my commentary was not just a lot of words. I carefully demonstrated the relationship of faith and works with numerous examples from scripture that included Sarah. All of the saved are saved by the grace of God. Their faith is by way of God’s and the works are also by way of God’s grace. Eph 2:8-10 is particularly helpful here and it reads as follows:

it seems you cannot even see that your commentary was lenghty and just a lot of words nor can you see that what you quoted was overwhelmingly about faith in the main and not really about works and yet for some unknown reason you still harp heavily on works - twinc

Please note that none of the works come before God’s gracious gift of faith nor are the works of ourselves. We are the Father’s workmanship…we are not our own workmanship. We are made a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works. We do not make ourselves a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works. Likewise, the good works are not of our creation. The good works are prepared by the Father that we should walk in them. Moreover, the Father prepared these works in advance of our justification. It is all of the Father’s work within us from start to finish, and without the good works there is no salvation, because the lack of good works and sinfulness are not from God, but from us and out willful disobedience.

Eph 2:8-10 is the perfect bridge to understanding James 2 and why salvation is not by faith alone.

If you disagree with the lengthy commentary that I presented earlier, perhaps you could present point by point counter arguments against the exegesis as it was presented.

God bless.

it seems you cannot see or accept that what you have given is a lenghty commentary full of words when the trump card is as Jesus said and should be understood "go thy faith has made thee whole"and also CCC2011 and St.Therese - you commentary is full of by faith and yet it seems you can only see by works - if you dont believe me go take another careful,prayerful closer look - twinc

 

[thistle]

Ignore twinc. He thinks he is always right and everyone else is always wrong.
It does not matter what answer anyone gives he will never accept it.
He should leave these forums and simply set up his own blogsite!

 

[twinc]

it seems you cannot see or accept that what you have given is a lenghty commentary full of words when the trump card is as Jesus said and should be understood "go thy faith has made thee whole"and also CCC2011 and St.Therese - you commentary is full of by faith and yet it seems you can only see by works - if you dont believe me go take another careful,prayerful closer look - twinc

btw the good works in Eph.2:8-10 is the good work of Jesus Christ and our faith and belief in Him and His good work - this is also echoed and explained in Jn.3:15-16 - twinc

 

[Pax]

btw the good works in Eph.2:8-10 is the good work of Jesus Christ and our faith and belief in Him and His good work - this is also echoed and explained in Jn.3:15-16 - twinc

twinc in Christ,

Is your comment in someway opposed to my remarks pertaining to Eph 2:8-10?

God bless.

 

[Pax]

it seems you cannot see or accept that what you have given is a lenghty commentary full of words when the trump card is as Jesus said and should be understood "go thy faith has made thee whole"and also CCC2011 and St.Therese - you commentary is full of by faith and yet it seems you can only see by works - if you dont believe me go take another careful,prayerful closer look - twinc

Did you read my post # 11 where I demonstrated by scripture how you misused Jesus words? Please read it again. Likewise, I have reviewed CCC2011 and there is nothing in that section of the catechism which in any way, shape, or form denies what I have pointed out.

Please be advised that, as the author of my own commentary, I know what it says and what it does not say. You have filtered what I have written through your personal prism which is apparently distorting that which has been presented. If there is to be a disagreement with what is presented, then the best thing for you to do is to show how my words differed from the words of the scriptures that were included and how my conclusions were in error. On that basis, I will gladly stand corrected as needed.

God bless.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

sorry - it does not help and is just words on top of more words,and so I simply ask for a simple answer what simple good work did Sarah do except to believe and have faith - she had presumably done all her good works up to then and for a long time just simply trying to conceive - so here as in the case oif Abraham and all other miracles,including that of salvation impinges not on works but on faith and Jesus Himself said and says to us even now “go,thy faith has made thee whole” - no mention of “thy faith and works has made thee whole” - twinc

Faith is a work; John 6:28. Even if all she did was try to conceive, that is still a work – and she did it. But St. Paul says she did much more, deferring to Abraham without complaint – calling him “Lord” as is indicated by Genesis regarding Adam and Eve concerns the difference between Marriage and the alternative, Lust and Domination.

It impinges on both – for faith is a work – grace is not a unilateral gift, but a bidirectional relationship. Again, justice is not a court proceeding but how one properly treats their brother and their God. Abraham and Sarah’s reputation of Justice is not a mere mirage – they were in fact Just. Abraham saved Lot, Sarah allowed Lot the choice of the better land without complaint, Sodom was given a chance to repent. etc.

What is faith to you? If it is “grace” then it is not just a gift. If it is gift – but not grace, without even thanking as a part of accepting, then it is not a work we do: again John 6:28. We do the work of God, not JUST God. He gives to us, and we give back to him.
No one “earns” salvation – but they do the work to maintain it. I work out my salvation in fear and trembling.

If you wish to separate faith and works, then give a clear account of the reason why you think it permissible to do so not as a figure of speech about the “law” of Moses – but as a separation that is completely logical; explain why it is right to say Jesus speaks sloppily, but St. Paul speaks clearly – for I think it is the other way around; St. Paul speaks technically of the Law – Jesus speaks clearly about how humans act even without the Law. If it is true that only one’s faith with no work, no thank you, no begging – nothing else – then you have an easy case. Simply show a man who gave no working evidence that he had faith, and no one else showed working evidence of faith on that man’s behalf – before Jesus healed this person.

Again, give even one example of somebody who did not ask – who did not follow the law – who refused charity of any kind toward someone else – who had no one that did any of these things on** their behalf** as does a mother or father, sister or friend. A man who showed no faith by a work of some kind, and was not loved by another, whom Jesus did a miraculous work to indicating their salvation – The easiest would be any demon to whom Jesus says – You know me, you are saved…

if you can do that, you have an argument. Otherwise, I say to you – Jesus works few miracles where people show little faith by their actions. Where there is no work of faith at all – I have seen only Jesus’ wrath.

What is this Faith you speak of? Illustrate it scripturally by a clear example for all of us who find your comments confusing at best. Do not show me an example where it is ambiguous, or you don’t know – that is not proof of anything except ignorance.
Show that you know what Jesus and St. Paul meant – BOTH; otherwise your words are just an opinion as liable to being wrong as anyone else who twists scripture to their own demise. If you wish to teach – show that you are not blind – don’t just say “I see!”. Demonstrate it.

 

[twinc]

Faith is a work; John 6:28. Even if all she did was try to conceive, that is still a work – and she did it. But St. Paul says she did much more, deferring to Abraham without complaint – calling him “Lord” as is indicated by Genesis regarding Adam and Eve concerns the difference between Marriage and the alternative, Lust and Domination.

It impinges on both – for faith is a work – grace is not a unilateral gift, but a bidirectional relationship. Again, justice is not a court proceeding but how one properly treats their brother and their God. Abraham and Sarah’s reputation of Justice is not a mere mirage – they were in fact Just. Abraham saved Lot, Sarah allowed Lot the choice of the better land without complaint, Sodom was given a chance to repent. etc.

What is faith to you? If it is “grace” then it is not just a gift. If it is gift – but not grace, without even thanking as a part of accepting, then it is not a work we do: again John 6:28. We do the work of God, not JUST God. He gives to us, and we give back to him.
No one “earns” salvation – but they do the work to maintain it. I work out my salvation in fear and trembling.

If you wish to separate faith and works, then give a clear account of the reason why you think it permissible to do so not as a figure of speech about the “law” of Moses – but as a separation that is completely logical; explain why it is right to say Jesus speaks sloppily, but St. Paul speaks clearly – for I think it is the other way around; St. Paul speaks technically of the Law – Jesus speaks clearly about how humans act even without the Law. If it is true that only one’s faith with no work, no thank you, no begging – nothing else – then you have an easy case. Simply show a man who gave no working evidence that he had faith, and no one else showed working evidence of faith on that man’s behalf – before Jesus healed this person.

Again, give even one example of somebody who did not ask – who did not follow the law – who refused charity of any kind toward someone else – who had no one that did any of these things on** their behalf** as does a mother or father, sister or friend. A man who showed no faith by a work of some kind, and was not loved by another, whom Jesus did a miraculous work to indicating their salvation – The easiest would be any demon to whom Jesus says – You know me, you are saved…

if you can do that, you have an argument. Otherwise, I say to you – Jesus works few miracles where people show little faith by their actions. Where there is no work of faith at all – I have seen only Jesus’ wrath.

What is this Faith you speak of? Illustrate it scripturally by a clear example for all of us who find your comments confusing at best. Do not show me an example where it is ambiguous, or you don’t know – that is not proof of anything except ignorance.
Show that you know what Jesus and St. Paul meant – BOTH; otherwise your words are just an opinion as liable to being wrong as anyone else who twists scripture to their own demise. If you wish to teach – show that you are not blind – don’t just say “I see!”. Demonstrate it.

I do not need long winded statements or endless meaningless words of confusion - the devil can and would perform endless good works according to his yard stick but it is impossible for him to simply believe as also is the case with many humans who simply find it simply impossible to simply believe which we are simply asked to simply do -twinc

 

[twinc]

Faith is a work; John 6:28. Even if all she did was try to conceive, that is still a work – and she did it. But St. Paul says she did much more, deferring to Abraham without complaint – calling him “Lord” as is indicated by Genesis regarding Adam and Eve concerns the difference between Marriage and the alternative, Lust and Domination.

It impinges on both – for faith is a work – grace is not a unilateral gift, but a bidirectional relationship. Again, justice is not a court proceeding but how one properly treats their brother and their God. Abraham and Sarah’s reputation of Justice is not a mere mirage – they were in fact Just. Abraham saved Lot, Sarah allowed Lot the choice of the better land without complaint, Sodom was given a chance to repent. etc.

What is faith to you? If it is “grace” then it is not just a gift. If it is gift – but not grace, without even thanking as a part of accepting, then it is not a work we do: again John 6:28. We do the work of God, not JUST God. He gives to us, and we give back to him.
No one “earns” salvation – but they do the work to maintain it. I work out my salvation in fear and trembling.

If you wish to separate faith and works, then give a clear account of the reason why you think it permissible to do so not as a figure of speech about the “law” of Moses – but as a separation that is completely logical; explain why it is right to say Jesus speaks sloppily, but St. Paul speaks clearly – for I think it is the other way around; St. Paul speaks technically of the Law – Jesus speaks clearly about how humans act even without the Law. If it is true that only one’s faith with no work, no thank you, no begging – nothing else – then you have an easy case. Simply show a man who gave no working evidence that he had faith, and no one else showed working evidence of faith on that man’s behalf – before Jesus healed this person.

Again, give even one example of somebody who did not ask – who did not follow the law – who refused charity of any kind toward someone else – who had no one that did any of these things on** their behalf** as does a mother or father, sister or friend. A man who showed no faith by a work of some kind, and was not loved by another, whom Jesus did a miraculous work to indicating their salvation – The easiest would be any demon to whom Jesus says – You know me, you are saved…

if you can do that, you have an argument. Otherwise, I say to you – Jesus works few miracles where people show little faith by their actions. Where there is no work of faith at all – I have seen only Jesus’ wrath.

What is this Faith you speak of? Illustrate it scripturally by a clear example for all of us who find your comments confusing at best. Do not show me an example where it is ambiguous, or you don’t know – that is not proof of anything except ignorance.
Show that you know what Jesus and St. Paul meant – BOTH; otherwise your words are just an opinion as liable to being wrong as anyone else who twists scripture to their own demise. If you wish to teach – show that you are not blind – don’t just say “I see!”. Demonstrate it.

excuse me you have got it all wrong and then use a lot of words to embellish it - nowhere does Jesus say “you know me - you are saved”- it seems all the devils know and knew Him but cannot believe in Him,their battle cry still rings out “I will not believe or serve”- we are simply asked to simply do that which devils simply cannot do simply believe and so these things are written that you may simply believe “that Jesus is the Christ,the son of God;and that believing you may have life in his name” - simple and yet not simple at all - twinc

 

[day2day]

Pax, Thanks for your extended comments on this passage. Here are a couple of observations.

1, “James uses the word “when” in reference to Rahab just as he uses the word “when” in reference to Abraham;” and “Any attempt to make a production out of the word “by” which is not in the text versus the word “when” which is in the text will fail.”

The word “when” is not in the Greek text either in James 2:21 or 2:25. It is rendered in connection with the aorist participles to show that they are temporal in force. Your argument about the temporal force is correct, but it doesn’t come from James use of the word “when.”

1. If Abraham was justified by faith, isn’t it possible that these later passages you mention are merely showing that Abraham’s faith matured as he trusted the Lord throughout his life? It wasn’t completed in the sense that Abraham lacked something in the faith that had justified him before God. Rather, it grew stronger.
2. "Paul tells us that:
3. “In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations; as he had been told,”
4. “He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb.”
5. “No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.”

Your conclusion does not seem to follow from these texts. If I understand your argument, it is along the following lines: a) each of these texts about faith contains an element of works; b) The works satisfied and pleased God; c) Therefore, it is through works that Abraham’s faith received divine approval, in the sense of justifying him before God. It also appears that you wish to argue that had Abraham not done works, his faith would have been uncompleted and would not have brought about his justification.

Those points do not seem to flow from the text but seem to be a reading into the text something that is not there. There are not works in each of these points. Also, I am wondering how you reconcile James 2:24 with Romans 4:2. In regard to Abraham, James says a man is justified by works, but Paul says if Abraham was justified by works, he had something to glory about, but not before God.

1. In reference to Gal 3:5-9 you mention, “This quote is a reference to Abraham’s justification in Genesis 12:1-4”

The Abrahamic Covenant in Genesis 12 sets forth several promises from the Lord to Abraham, but the passage doesn’t mention justification. Therefore, the reference to justification in Gal 3 is in regard to Genesis 15:6, and the reference to Gen 12 links the Gentiles to Abraham, “In you shall all nations of the world be blessed.”

1. “The belief that Abraham had in this instance came by way of the Spirit and faith.”

The words for “belief” and “faith” are the same thing. Abraham’s belief did not come by way of faith, it was faith.