Abraham & Christianity

[famdigy]

I’m curious to know how Christians reconcile their faith with Abraham’s (a.s.). I’m of the belief that Abraham did not worship a triune God as Christians worship today. Do Christians believe that to be true also? If that’s the case then do you view Christianity as an evolution to the faith Abraham was on?

 

[Indifferently]

I’m curious to know how Christians reconcile their faith with Abraham’s (a.s.). I’m of the belief that Abraham did not worship a triune God as Christians worship today. Do Christians believe that to be true also? If that’s the case then do you view Christianity as an evolution to the faith Abraham was on?

The whole truth of the Triune God had not been revealed at that point in salvation history. Abraham is a model of faith for Christians, because he trusted in God even when it seemed something terrible might happen as a result, and was rewarded for his steadfast faith. So too are we by having faith in the Cross.

The beauty of Christianity is that the days of Abraham and the Old Covenant have passed by, and death has been defeated. We, as Christians, know that Jesus’s death upon the Cross was the one final sacrifice made once for the sins of the whole world, knowing otherwise that we are dead in our sins unless we are ‘in Christ’. The sacrifices of Abraham, and of the people of Israel, prefigured this the greatest sacrifice of all upon the Altar of the Cross.

 

[TarkanAttila]

I’m curious to know how Christians reconcile their faith with Abraham’s (a.s.). I’m of the belief that Abraham did not worship a triune God as Christians worship today. Do Christians believe that to be true also? If that’s the case then do you view Christianity as an evolution to the faith Abraham was on?

There are many songs in Christianity which reveal the truth behind our understanding of the triune God. One is “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name”. Its third verse (in most books) goes like this:

Holy Father, Holy Son,
Holy Spirit, Three we name Thee;
While in essence only One,
Undivided God we claim Thee;
And adoring bend the knee,
While we own the mystery.

I liken it less to three separate persons (Mormonism, i.e. not real Christianity), and less a God with multiple personality disorder (Modalism, a heresy), than somewhere in the middle of that. It is revealed to us by God, not evolved by men, time, or events.

It is revealed in Christ’s teachings - I and the Father are one; whoever has seen Me has seen the Father. Before Abraham was, I AM. These and many others were words He spoke supporting His divinity as God and as God’s son.

God is somewhere between a community and a single entity. He is both. It is a mystery to us - further still how the Church is Christ’s body. But so it is, even if it makes no sense to us.

It by no means contradicts Abraham’s faith, but specifies it.

 

[Indifferently]

The Holy Trinity, three persons United in Love.

 

[Columba_Tom]

Thank you for bringing this interesting question. And thank you for your signature from Imam Sajjad’s Du’a;

“O God, complete my intention through Thy gentleness, rectify my certainty through what is with Thee, and set right what is corrupt in me through Thy power!”

It is triune, is it not?

Father Abraham lived in pagan times. I have wondered about how he came to be so wise in his conversations with The Lord. He could not have faced the Creator: my understanding is that seeing God would be too much for a mortal. But he must have been opened to understanding by the power of God. The Holy Spirit.

His faith won him a visit from three strangers, bearing the word of God. This is a popular theme of Orthodox iconography. These angels (depicted with wings) are known as “The Old Testament Trinity”.

When Abraham was finally tested, to offer his son as a sacrifice in faith, his hand was stopped by the ever merciful Lord. He was told clearly that “God will provide the Lamb”. It is God’s sacrifice of Himself, not Abraham’s, by which we are ultimately saved.

 

[famdigy]

It is revealed in Christ’s teachings - I and the Father are one; whoever has seen Me has seen the Father. Before Abraham was, I AM. These and many others were words He spoke supporting His divinity as God and as God’s son.

Tarkan, Is there any indication that Abraham had the same understanding of God and Jesus as Christians do today.

I take it that acceptance of Jesus’ divinity is the perfection of faith in Christianity. Do you think that Abraham was denied that perfection because he wasn’t aware of Jesus in the same way Christians do today

 

[famdigy]

His faith won him a visit from three strangers, bearing the word of God. This is a popular theme of Orthodox iconography. These angels (depicted with wings) are known as “The Old Testament Trinity”.

Columba Tom, can you elaborate more on “The Old Testament Trinity” what is the relationship between them and the new testament trinity?

 

[famdigy]

The whole truth of the Triune God had not been revealed at that point in salvation history.

Given that accepting Jesus as savior is central to salvation why do you think the truth of the Triune God was not revealed at that point in time. Do you think their faith including Abraham’s was not complete because they did not have the same understanding of the Triune God as Christians do today?

 

[hn160]

I’m curious to know how Christians reconcile their faith with Abraham’s (a.s.). I’m of the belief that Abraham did not worship a triune God as Christians worship today. Do Christians believe that to be true also? If that’s the case then do you view Christianity as an evolution to the faith Abraham was on?

In John 8:56-58 Christ said "Your father Abraham xrejoiced ythat he would see my day. zHe saw it and was glad.” 57So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”5 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, aI am.” This indicates that Christ is the second part of the Trinity.

 

[famdigy]

In John 8:56-58 Christ said "Your father Abraham xrejoiced ythat he would see my day. zHe saw it and was glad.” 57So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”5 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, aI am.” This indicates that Christ is the second part of the Trinity.

Thank you for that hn160, I think you explained well your relationship to Abraham. I was wondering what Abraham’s understanding of the Trinity was. Someone earlier mentioned that the true nature of the trinity was not revealed to Abraham at that time. Is that a universal belief among Christians?

 

[Monergistic]

I’m curious to know how Christians reconcile their faith with Abraham’s (a.s.). I’m of the belief that Abraham did not worship a triune God as Christians worship today. Do Christians believe that to be true also? If that’s the case then do you view Christianity as an evolution to the faith Abraham was on?

I do believe that is true. I also believe Judaism experienced some evolution since Abraham as well. I will explain.

First, terms. Strict monotheism maintains that there is one true God who ought to be worshiped, and as a matter of fact, there is only one God that exists. Henotheism is more like a belief in the existence of several gods or many gods, sometimes regional and sometimes with more or less power, but there is just one all-powerful God who is the only one that Abraham and his people will worship.

My belief (and, I think, correct understanding) of Abraham and of Judaism historically is that Abraham and with him some early generations of Jews were henotheistic. Meaning Abraham (or some of his descendants) would go from place to place and hear of these other gods, and they wouldn’t necessarily believe those gods were non-existent. The most powerful evidence of this, I think, is that up to a certain point, Jews were occasionally polytheistic and as an entire group, they would sometimes worship gods other than the one true God.

You can’t very well worship something if you do not first believe it exists. Instead, you go about your business as a henotheistic people, you worship the correct god most of the time, and then occasionally you worship some of these other gods that you also believe to exist. Then you go back to worshiping Yahweh, except maybe you slip up again later on.

I did say something about a certain point, though, and that certain point coincided with the prophet Isaiah. Was that the Babylonian captivity? I think it was Babylonian. Anyway, it was through this particular prophet that God made it really, really clear that no other gods exist and He is the only game in town. After this, Jews still had an imperfect commitment to the Lord their God, but they never worshiped any other gods again. Why?

Because they finally understood what had always been true, but believed inconsistently at best. There is only one God that exists, and other gods cannot be worshiped because other gods do not exist.

Thus, a bit of evolution within Judaism since Abraham. And then a bit later on, it’s the Christian belief that God made His triune nature equally clear to us. This type of evolution happens. It’s a part of progressive revelation- God keeps revealing things about Himself through prophets over the course of several thousand years, so you would expect some development. It’s not like God told Abraham every single thing about Himself; it’s not even very likely that God made him understand that the gods of his childhood do not exist and his people were believing in lies. Biblically and historically, that seems very unlikely. So Abraham learned some stuff, it was a starting point, and things did evolve from there because of what God continued to reveal.

Do Christians believe in the God of Abraham? Yes we do, but we don’t believe all the same things as him because God has told us a lot more about Himself since then. This is also true of Jews, even of Jews before the time of Christ (but after Isaiah), albeit in a different way and to a lesser extent.

 

[famdigy]

Do Christians believe in the God of Abraham? Yes we do, but we don’t believe all the same things as him because God has told us a lot more about Himself since then. This is also true of Jews, even of Jews before the time of Christ (but after Isaiah), albeit in a different way and to a lesser extent.

Thank you for the detailed and enlightening response. I always thought Christians believed Abraham was a strict Monotheist. I wonder if all Christians believe that he was a Henotheist or are there are differences among the Christian denominations in this regard?

 

[Verisimilitude]

I’m curious to know how Christians reconcile their faith with Abraham’s (a.s.). I’m of the belief that Abraham did not worship a triune God as Christians worship today. Do Christians believe that to be true also? If that’s the case then do you view Christianity as an evolution to the faith Abraham was on?

Hi famdigy,
No, I do not believe that to be true and I’m not sure there is anything to reconcile.

The relationship of God and humanity as recorded in the Christian Bible- both Old and New Testaments has a remarkable yet natural continuity that took centuries to write/unfold and will take longer for us to more fully understand. God speaks of himself in plural form in the creation account while fashioning the first Parents, and is represented as three visitors to Abraham, as Old Testament examples so it isn’t exactly a new concept to God.

When the Qur’an mentions the spirit of God, al-Ruh, it does so in context with the New Testament stories it borrows that identify the Holy Spirit as Christians understand it with regard to the Trinity.

Would you say a person learning mathematics over time evolves their understanding of mathematics or simply gains a greater understanding of something that doesn’t change over time?

 

[Sam_777]

famdigy Why you think Ibraham was the right figure to understand Trinity !!!

Read (Isaiah 63:15-16):
“Look down from heaven and see, from your lofty throne, holy and glorious. Where are your zeal and your might? your tenderness and compassion are withheld from us. But you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.”

The Trinity doctrine was not plainly revealed at that time, since JESUS was not crucified yet.

 

[Monergistic]

Hebrews 11 is known as “the Hall of Faith.” It is here that various heros of the Old Testament are commended and named as faithful God-followers, especially Abraham. He probably gets the most detail and attention. The end of this chapter helps answer some questions for the OP, I think. Hebrews 11, verses 39 and 40.

“And all these, though commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.”

There are a fair number of ways to speculate on exactly when and how all of that works for faithful Jews before the time of Christ, but I do think this passage is the go-to piece of text that is most helpful in clearing a few things up.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Thank you for the detailed and enlightening response. I always thought Christians believed Abraham was a strict Monotheist. I wonder if all Christians believe that he was a Henotheist or are there are differences among the Christian denominations in this regard?

Catholic Christians are also strict monotheists…there is only one God…Father, Son, and Spirit.

 

[mick_tinetti]

Given that accepting Jesus as savior is central to salvation why do you think the truth of the Triune God was not revealed at that point in time. Do you think their faith including Abraham’s was not complete because they did not have the same understanding of the Triune God as Christians do today?

There are several things in the Old Testament that “prefigures” Jesus. Here are two examples.

Isaiah 6:3
*“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; *the whole earth is full of his glory.”

Three Holy-ies i.e. a Triune God… is the Lord of hosts i.e. They are one.

The lowercase for the Son and Holy Spirit indicates they were not yet revealed as True God.

Also, King David mentions how God almighty talked about Jesus (who preexisted).

Psalms 110
110[109]***The LORD says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand,"

Jesus ask a question in Mathew 22:44
“What do you think of the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, inspired by the Spirit,*calls him Lord, saying, 44 ‘The Lord (God Almighty) said to my Lord (Jesus who is the son of David i.e. born before Jesus was born but preexisted existed as pure Spirit before taking on His human body).

 

[mick_tinetti]

I’m curious to know how Christians reconcile their faith with Abraham’s (a.s.). I’m of the belief that Abraham did not worship a triune God as Christians worship today. Do Christians believe that to be true also? If that’s the case then do you view Christianity as an evolution to the faith Abraham was on?

It is a new covenant. A covenant is a contract between God and man. The old covenant does not exist.

 

[mick_tinetti]

It is a new covenant. A covenant is a contract between God and man. The old covenant does not exist.

JEREMIAH 31:31
“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, and I showed myself their Master, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD;

HEBREWS 8:1
For he finds fault with them when he says: The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord. 10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, **and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, **and I will remember their sins no more.” 13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

LUKE 22:19
And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the chalice after supper, saying, “This chalice which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. 21 But behold the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table. 22 For the Son of man goes as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed! 23 And they began to question one another, which of them it was that would do this.

But there is Good News to those that do not yet believe:

The Novena to the Divine Mercy (Good Friday through Divine Mercy Sunday – the Sunday after Easter)

A novena is a nine-day prayer; the Divine Mercy is Jesus Himself. Jesus is calling all humanity to the Catholic church through the novena to the Divine Mercy.

First Day (Good Friday): Today bring to Me all mankind, especially all sinners
Second Day: Today bring to Me the Souls of Priests and Religious
Third Day: Today bring to Me all Devout and Faithful Souls
Fourth Day: Today bring to Me those who do not believe in God and those who do not know Me
Fifth Day: Today bring to Me the Souls of those who have separated themselves from My Church
Sixth Day: Today bring to Me the Meek and Humble Souls and the Souls of Little Children
Seventh Day: Today bring to Me the Souls who especially venerate and glorify My Mercy
Eighth Day: Today bring to Me the Souls who are in the prison of Purgatory
Ninth Day (Divine Mercy Sunday): Today bring to Me the Souls who have become Lukewarm

Read more: www.ewtn.com

So if you ever are called to join the Catholic church feel free all are invited

There are responsibilities but they are as heavy or light as you choose to make them. There are straw, iron and pure gold souls. Pure gold are those striving for perfection. Jesus helps us no matter what path we take but don’t be a “lukewarm soul.”

Don’t harden your hearts like at the time of Median.

We are approaching the end of time when Jesus is going to return and establish His Kingdom.

Peace be with you,

Mick

 

[PJM]

=famdigy;10725864]I’m curious to know how Christians reconcile their faith with Abraham’s (a.s.). I’m of the belief that Abraham did not worship a triune God as Christians worship today. Do Christians believe that to be true also? If that’s the case then do you view Christianity as an evolution to the faith Abraham was on?

Actually dear friend;

Abraham DID; but DIDN"T know it as such. Because THERE IS But One True God; AND that One True God is “Triune” and always was, and always will remain as such.

This is some 4,000 years ago, when God decided to once again make Himself known to humanity. just how and why God did this as He choose to is, and shall remain a mystery until we reach eternity.

God, being “All-Wise” and “All-knowing” made Himself known first as the ONLY True God. This was at a time when numerous gods were common. ANd people created in a real sense there Own gods. The peoples were nomatic and were constantly exposed to other faith beliefs. And this for a long time was the main “spiritual battle” God waged with the Jewish peoples.

In an absolute sense; it may well of been [WOULD HAVE BEEN] counter-productive to attempt to introduce the [ever-prssent] Trinity; when the main Obstacle to converting the Jews was the issue of ONLY One True God.

Good question though