Abraham Told To Sacrifice Issac

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Greg_McPherran

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Hello,

Today, if someone said they were going to kill their child because God told them to, they would be put in jail and viewed as criminally insane. Why do we view Abraham differently? He took out a knife to kill his own son. I don’t understand how this can possibly be a basis for faith.

Thank You
 
Hi Greg_McPherran,

Abraham was living in a place and time when the people who lived around him regularly sacrificed their children to different gods. Keep in mind, right up front, that God had no intention of letting Abraham sacrifice Isaac. We know that, obviously, from how the story ends. God, as He very often does, shows us many things at once. Abraham’s faith is tested, but a judgement is also being placed on all the people who live around Abraham who are sacrificing their children to various idols. This gets a bit large for what I can post here (we’re held to 4,000 characters), but the judgement comes down on these other peoples (for human sacrifice and other things) when Israel returns to conquers the land.

Hope something here might be helpful to you,
God bless
 
Hello ccav,
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ccav:
Abraham was living in a place and time when the people who lived around him regularly sacrificed their children to different gods.
That’s irrelevant to whether it is wrong for a father to kill his son. The simple fact is that he was going to do it. I don’t know how someone who was going to kill his own son can be a father of a faith. I understand if God tells you to do something, you must obey, but no one ever says that God would ever tell someone to kill his own son.

I accept, but I don’t understand.

Thank You ccav
 
Obedience to God is everything even when we do not understand it. The beauty of this narrative is that God was testing Abraham but would not let Abraham kill Isaac. Abraham’s obedience is without blemish for he would do whatever God asked of him. Abraham’s actions remain without blemish because in obeying God, the Lord would never allow Abraham to do something evil.

We cannot fully understand or appreciate this incident in Abraham and Isaac’s lives because we cannot fathom God or His actions. It is as the apostle Paul tells us in Romans 11:33-34, *O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” *
 
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Greg_McPherran:
Hello ccav,

That’s irrelevant to whether it is wrong for a father to kill his son. The simple fact is that he was going to do it. I don’t know how someone who was going to kill his own son can be a father of a faith. I understand if God tells you to do something, you must obey, but no one ever says that God would ever tell someone to kill his own son.

Thank You ccav
Actually it is not irrelevant. Abraham lived in a culture where that was acceptable. Abraham apparently also thought it was acceptable if it was for a god. God demonstrated to him that it was not acceptable and also demonstrated it to the society in general. 🙂
 
Are you saying that Abraham only obeyed God because this behavior of sacrificing one’s son was acceptable in his culture?

That sounds like a crowd follower, not a spiritual leader.
 
Abraham trusted God completely in his promise that Isaac would be the ancestor of a great nation, and he knew God would not allow him to be killed, he was willing to follow God’s plan and trust God’s timing, knowing his perfect obedience would end in proof of God’s providence.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
Are you saying that Abraham only obeyed God because this behavior of sacrificing one’s son was acceptable in his culture?

That sounds like a crowd follower, not a spiritual leader.
That is not what is being said here at all. Abraham is following God and not the crowd. Killing Isaac is not something Abraham wanted to do nor would he wish to be like the pagans. It is, however, a powerful way for God to simultaneously demonstrate His requirements for obedience, as well as His moral superiority and perfection over any and all false gods. God’s instructions to Abraham and the final outcome of the events demonstrate something other than following the crowd.
 
Hello Pax and thank you all,
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Pax:
Abraham is following God and not the crowd. Killing Isaac is not something Abraham wanted to do nor would he wish to be like the pagans.
That’s fine, then I return to my original statement. We don’t believe that in these times God would tell someone to sacrifice a child, do we?

The original response to this was that it was common in Abraham’s culture. That’s how I got off track to begin with. 😛

I am trying to understand why we teach that God would would ask someone in Abraham’s time to sacrifice a child, yet we would reject this idea now if someone were to say that God is telling them to sacrifice their child.

The funny thing is, I ask a question like this, then I get a response that doesn’t address my main point, then I get “scolded” for questioning the response. However, my main crux never gets addressed.
:rotfl: :rotfl:
 
Greg,

I hope no one was scolding you. If it sounded like it, then I apologize.

I think ccav made a good point in response to your original post. God demonstrated that sacrifice of children is wrong, but at the same time He demonstrated that obedience is necessary even if it is something we do not wish to do. Abraham’s willingness to obey God, even to the same extent that pagans were willing to do the alleged bidding of their false gods, is important. God never intended that Abraham should kill Isaac. If Abraham had been aware of this then his faith could not be tested. Therefore, God tested him right up to the point of sacrificing his son.

This event is also a prefiguring of what God the Father would, in fact, do for us. Because of His love for us, God sent His only son as the propitiation and sacrifice for the atonement of our sins.

I hope this helps.
 
Hello,
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Pax:
Greg,

I hope no one was scolding you. If it sounded like it, then I apologize.
I hope you noticed “scolded” was in quotes and I had laughing afterward. I do have a sense of humor you know.:rotfl:
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Pax:
I think ccav made a good point in response to your original post. God demonstrated that sacrifice of children is wrong, but at the same time He demonstrated that obedience is necessary even if it is something we do not wish to do. Abraham’s willingness to obey God, even to the same extent that pagans were willing to do the alleged bidding of their false gods, is important. God never intended that Abraham should kill Isaac. If Abraham had been aware of this then his faith could not be tested. Therefore, God tested him right up to the point of sacrificing his son.

This event is also a prefiguring of what God the Father would, in fact, do for us. Because of His love for us, God sent His only son as the propitiation and sacrifice for the atonement of our sins.

I hope this helps.
Thank you and OK, let’s see if I understand and where I still have questions.
  1. Abraham had been graced by God and so therefore Abraham rejected the idea of sacrificing one’s son even though others of his time did this. True/False ?
  2. Abraham trusted God and was willing to do this despite the fact that he (Abraham) disagreed with his culture of the time. True/ False ?
  3. I still have my main question: How can we accept this story when today we would reject the idea of God asking someone to sacrifice his son? You might say, well back then they didn’t think Abraham was wrong because the culture accepted it. I understand that. However, I ask objectively (regardless of the culture) why do we consider it morally understandable that God would ask Abraham to do that when today we would reject the idea of God asking someone to do this? (Even before the birth of Jesus it would have not been considered morally understandable that God would ask someone to sacrifice his/her son.)
Please read 3. carefully to understand the crux of my question.

Thank you, Greg
 
Greg,

You started by saying that if someone spoke of having been told by God to kill their child they’d be put away as criminally insane. Yes, perhaps this would be the manner in which God was sparing them from taking that step, just as he spared Abraham from taking Issac.

With Issac, God, rather than using the men in white coats to spare Issac, he used Abrahams own faith and willingness to be obedient. As has been said in the replies of others here, at that time, there would have been no societal restriction to prevent him from proceeding with the sacrifice, it was a common practice. I doubt that a God fearing man of that time would have even questioned it beyond a deep sadness that God was now asking him to give up this son whom he and his wife had so desired and who had been so miraculous in coming at all. And yet, how could he, after all that had happened, how could he not do as God asked.

Had he not already incurred God’s wrath in his lack of faith when he took the slave as his concubine? This was a common practice, and yet he knew, without the letter of the law to tell him so, that this was not the heir he was meant to give to Father a people for God. And yet, the ways of God are a mystery, and here he was, being asked to sacrifice his son, perhaps to attone for the sins he had committed against God. Perhaps his sins were so great that God could not forgive him. So certainly, if he loved God, he would love Him more than he loved even his greatest love, the fruit of his seed, his son. When God asks us to do something, we are not meant to stop and apply reason, not if we are absolutely certain it is He who asks and not if we are certain it is not contrary to that which we know He has revealed to those who come before us. But we MUST be certain it is not contrary to that which he has spoke infallibly to those who have come before.

In our time, it is infallibly understood that God does NOT want our sacrifices, he wants our Love. But later in the thread you ask if it is possible for God, even in this day and age to ask a parent to sacrifice their child, and if so, what kind of God is that?

God does in fact ask parents on a regular basis to sacrifice even their children to him. As parents, it is an incredible sacrifice to allow one’s child to go into harms way to risk the possibility of being a martry through missionary work, and yet that is exactly what many parents are asked to do. We are asked to support our children if they discern that this is God’s will for their lives.

Parents are asked to sacrifice their future unborn grandchildren when they are told that their children are discerning a calling to the religious life. This is becoming increasingly difficult with smaller families, as there may be no grandchildren at all in families that accept this path their children set before them.

But would God ask any parent to “Kill” their child? No, God has revealed himself to us far more fully at this time in history than he had in Abrahams and we know that such a request is highly suspect and likely to be of another source. Either that or we have not understood the actual intent of the request, similar to St. Francis thinking that when God asked him to “Repair my Church” that he was being asked to fix the building of the broken down chapel that St. Francis stood before.

I know that I once was incredibly puzzled by this chapter of Old Testament history, just as you’ve stated and it’s taken me a long time to begin to better understand it. Thank you for bringing it up so that I could also read some of the other answers posted. They took my understanding to another level.

I also think it is important to note that Abraham, in his willingness to give his own son to God, foreshadowed God’s willingness to give his son for Mankind. How incredible is the love of God for us that he was willing to do this. No-one imposed this sacrifice on God and yet he did so, for us.

CARose
 
Thank you CArose and all! My understanding is getting better. Could you address my questions as presented 1, 2, 3 and then I can respond if I still have questions or if I now understand. It’s basically just yes/no except #3 so it should require but a minute.

Most grateful, thank you!
 
It appears that as you were typing a reply to Pax, I was replying to you, so I didn’t answer your newest questions. Let’s see if this helps.
  1. There is nothing to say whether or not Abraham thought sacrificing his son to God as a good or bad thing, merely that if God requested it, it was a necessary thing and therefore he would obey his God. Therefore, in typical Catholic fashion, neither one answer (true) nor the other (false) but both (or other).
  2. See above, nothing is said specifically about whether or not his culture had anything to do with Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son, it was merely brought forward that nothing in his culture would suggest that “a god” would be opposed to such a request.
  3. I may have already answered question # 3 in my previous post. God has revealed himself to us slowly through the ages. That which is divinely revealed for all is captured in sacred scripture and the infallilble teachings of the church. Neither Sacred Scripture nor the Church had yet been established, so he was pretty much flying by the seat of his pants back then.
But he knew he loved God enough to do whatever he requested, even if he didn’t understand it. Heck, he’d left the comforts of home to wander in the wilderness alone with his household, all because God told him to. He hadn’t been following God’s lead only when he understood it, or saw the obvious benefit he would derive from his obedience. Even when it could be seen by any rational person that he was a fool to believe in a God who had asked such things from him, and who had made such impossible promises.

This degree of faith is exactly what can land you in a funny farm these days, and yet if that’s where we find ourselves, purely for insisting on doing God’s will, then that is where we are needed at this particular moment in time, and we are to trust God that His will is to be done there. And yet, we are encouraged to exercise caution when proceeding is most likely to bring such an outcome. Is it possible we have misunderstood God’s desire? Many Saints have been accused of being insane, St. Francis, to name him again, but also St. Therese, the Little Flower, when she had her fits as a child, was thought ill, when she felt she was having visions.

Bernadette, of Lourdes, ate dirt and was thought to be crazy. The children of Fatima were thought to be lying, even by the Bishop and Lucy by her own Mother.

We are not promised that we will receive praise on earth for accepting the sacrifices asked by God, rather that all Glory and Honor is His.

Does that help?

CARose
 
This, of course, takes us to the greatest mystery of all, one I spent a long time trying to figure out, Why a Crucificion? Why a Sacrifice? What’s that all about?

Why would a Loving God, as I know our God to be, allow for suffering and why would he allow such pain and agony to befall his own Son, a Son he loves?

What are your thoughts on this, the even more difficult question?
 
Thank You,

Regarding Jesus’ sacrifice. I think I once had a glimpse of insight.

I think there are several dimensions to this, a simple one being that God shows the depth of His love by His own sacrifice for our sake. This act has power to lift the veil of Satan’s lie that God has abandoned us.

I think it also relates to God allowing us to heaven and at the same time not being a hypocrite. You see, if He allowed us to heaven for no price, then his moral laws would mean nothing because it wouldn’t matter what you do, you go to heaven anyway. By showing us the price and seriousness of sin, God calls us to take the moral life seriously and to understand that offending Him is serious.

There are probably other aspects but they all point to one thing: Our Father knows what He is doing and He does indeed love us.

Greg
 
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CARose:
  1. There is nothing to say whether or not Abraham thought sacrificing his son to God as a good or bad thing, merely that if God requested it, it was a necessary thing and therefore he would obey his God. Therefore, in typical Catholic fashion, neither one answer (true) nor the other (false) but both (or other).
I’m glad it’s standard theology to answer this way. This is basically how my questions are being answered.
:rotfl:

Just kidding CARose, Pax, JimG, and ccav, your answers have all provided insight.
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CARose:
This degree of faith is exactly what can land you in a funny farm these days, and yet if that’s where we find ourselves, purely for insisting on doing God’s will, then that is where we are needed at this particular moment in time, and we are to trust God that His will is to be done there. And yet, we are encouraged to exercise caution when proceeding is most likely to bring such an outcome. Is it possible we have misunderstood God’s desire? Many Saints have been accused of being insane, St. Francis, to name him again, but also St. Therese, the Little Flower, when she had her fits as a child, was thought ill, when she felt she was having visions.

Bernadette, of Lourdes, ate dirt and was thought to be crazy. The children of Fatima were thought to be lying, even by the Bishop and Lucy by her own Mother.

We are not promised that we will receive praise on earth for accepting the sacrifices asked by God, rather that all Glory and Honor is His.
CARose
This gets more to the crux of my original question. However, what I am saying is that we would go further and even teach today that God would never require someone to sacrifice their son, true? So, why is it understandable that God would do this in Abraham’s time? (If you mention the culture I’m going to go cookoo :rotfl: ).

By the way, I asked my own son (he’s 13) about this Abraham story and he definitely doesn’t like the concept. :rotfl:
 
He did NOT require that Abraham sacrifice his son. He required that Abraham be willing to sacrifice his son, just as we must be willing, even in this day and age to sacrifice everything if that is the will of God.

We are not to kill our children, or anyone else for that matter (except in the rare case of a just war or when following lawful orders - but that’s another question I hope). But if circumstances require that we choose God vs. Husband/Wife or God vs. Son/Daughter or God vs. (fill in the blank, ANYTHING), our answer must be that we choose GOD.

But remember, to use caution when the something else is something we believe to be good and something which has been revealed publicly to be Good. For example, if we are asked to Choose between God and Church (think Joan of Arc here) how might we act in a way that is accord with both, for we know that God established the Church and we are called to obedience to the Church, so disobedience can’t be what God desires. I think this is where Martin Luther and John Calvin got lost. They didn’t see how to reconcile what they understood of God’s desire and their need to have others accept what they saw as failings in the Church.

If they had been obedient to the Church, while still holding firm to the Truth they understood about the errors of the times, who knows what would have happened. Instead, their lack of humility and disobedience led into centuries of a fractured church.

God can and does make all things for the good, and yet how many must suffer for our “simple” acts of disobedience?

I pray that I learn to obey, even when I can’t see any possible way to thread my way past the obsticles placed before me.

CARose
 
Hello CA,

OK, then let me word it this way:

What I am saying is that we would go further and even teach today that God would never ask someone to sacrifice their son, true? So, why is it understandable that God would do this in Abraham’s time? (If you mention the culture I’m still going to go cookoo :rotfl: ).

Thank You
 
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