Abraham

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What is the connections with Abraham, hajar ,and sarah in other religions?

What was ment by

Genesis 21:18 (New International Version)
18 Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation."
 
In the Islamic tradition, Abraham left his wife, Hajar, and son Ishmael, in the middle of the desert upon an instruction from God. And then he prayed for them as he left. He trusted God, and so did Hajar, even though she was a woman there by herself with just a baby.

When the water ran out, she started looking for water. She ran up onto a nearby hill to look around for any water or indication of water. Not seeing anything, she ran onto another hill to look again. And she kept running back and forth, checking on her baby in between, until the Angel Gabriel came and dug a well. She ran down when she saw the water springing forth, and gathered it together to make it into a pool/well so that it wouldn’t dry up as fast, and that’s what became the Well of Zam-Zam.

Then, a tribe of Arabs was able to find them because of the water. Obviously they’re pretty good at finding water in the desert or they couldn’t live there. So they came by the well and asked Hajar if they could take some of the water, and she made an agreement that they could come and settle there but she and her son and descendants would maintain control of the well. You see, she knew that it was important to maintain control of the water because that would guarantee her family (her son and his children) a special status in the city.

So the tribe of Arabs (Jurham) settled there, and it became the city of Mecca. Ishmael married from their women.

Many, many generations later, one of Ishmael’s descendants (Muhammad saws) received revelation from God when an angel came to visit him. That revelation transformed the Arabian peninsula, turning the from a people who lived heedless of God to one that obeyed His commands, and teaching others about their faith. I.e., a “great nation.”
 
I dont know much about this; but what is the christian and Jewish interpretation of the passage?
 
I think more significantly is whether the covenant was with Ishmael or Isaac…

"Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety? And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing! Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year. When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him."** (Genesis 17:17-22).
**

A great nation doesn’t mean a religious nation…

The G7 countries are all great nations, yet all of them are secular countries…
 
Sam_777 said:
I think more significantly is whether the covenant was with Ishmael or Isaac…

"Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety? And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing! Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year. When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him."** (Genesis 17:17-22).
**

A great nation doesn’t mean a religious nation…

The G7 countries are all great nations, yet all of them are secular countries…
Click to expand...
I dont think the G7 countries are what is being talked about?
Are they not talkng about the 12 jewish tribes?

But if Hagar and her son was not “favored” why would God say that Ismail would be linked to a “grate nation”? Isacc was link to a “great nation”. So what is the difference?
 
PureHeart said:
I dont think the G7 countries are what is being talked about?
Are they not talkng about the 12 jewish tribes?

But if Hagar and her son was not “favored” why would God say that Ismail would be linked to a “grate nation”? Isacc was link to a “great nation”. So what is the difference?
Click to expand...
The covenant between God and Man was carried through Isaac’s line, not Ishmael. That does not mean that Ishmael was cursed or that he, too, would not have numerous offspring.

Basically, Isaac’s line would hold the Messiah
 
ralphinal said:
The covenant between God and Man was carried through Isaac’s line, not Ishmael. That does not mean that Ishmael was cursed or that he, too, would not have numerous offspring.

Basically, Isaac’s line would hold the Messiah
Click to expand...


Yes its all about the covenant…
 
Sister_Amy said:
In the Islamic tradition, Abraham left his wife, Hajar, and son Ishmael, in the middle of the desert upon an instruction from God. And then he prayed for them as he left. He trusted God, and so did Hajar, even though she was a woman there by herself with just a baby.

When the water ran out, she started looking for water. She ran up onto a nearby hill to look around for any water or indication of water. Not seeing anything, she ran onto another hill to look again. And she kept running back and forth, checking on her baby in between, until the Angel Gabriel came and dug a well. She ran down when she saw the water springing forth, and gathered it together to make it into a pool/well so that it wouldn’t dry up as fast, and that’s what became the Well of Zam-Zam.

Then, a tribe of Arabs was able to find them because of the water. Obviously they’re pretty good at finding water in the desert or they couldn’t live there. So they came by the well and asked Hajar if they could take some of the water, and she made an agreement that they could come and settle there but she and her son and descendants would maintain control of the well. You see, she knew that it was important to maintain control of the water because that would guarantee her family (her son and his children) a special status in the city.

So the tribe of Arabs (Jurham) settled there, and it became the city of Mecca. Ishmael married from their women.

Many, many generations later, one of Ishmael’s descendants (Muhammad saws) received revelation from God when an angel came to visit him. That revelation transformed the Arabian peninsula, turning the from a people who lived heedless of God to one that obeyed His commands, and teaching others about their faith. I.e., a “great nation.”
Click to expand...
roflmao
 
ralphinal said:
The covenant between God and Man was carried through Isaac’s line, not Ishmael. That does not mean that Ishmael was cursed or that he, too, would not have numerous offspring.

Basically, Isaac’s line would hold the Messiah
Click to expand...
The covenant was with the children of Abraham. i.e. Ishmael and Issac and their progeny. The one sign of the covenant was circumcision which was done at the time of covenant. It was an important everlasting condition of the everlasting covenant. The Jews observed it throughout their life. Even Jesus was circumcised and all his followers too.

There was no problem of inheritance. There was no shortage of spiritual inheritance. God was to bless both Ishmael and Issac.

There was no shortage of land etc. Abraham settled Ishmael far away from kana’an in the wilderness of Paran. That was done under divine guidance. He left his wife Hagar and the first born son Ishmael at a place which is now called Makkah.

Issac remained in Palestine where his children had to migrate to Egypt for few hundred years and they remained there as slaves. The Egyptians under the tyrannical rule of the later day Pharoahs put much hardship on the children of Jacob. i.e. Jews. Pharoah persecuted the Jews.

Allah helped the children to get out of the clutches of the Egyptians by the person of Moses a.s.

Palestine was a good fruitful area. The Makkah was barren and sort of wilderness. Nobody was interested in that area. i.e. Arabia. The children of Ishamel were spread all over Arabia. It was the Arab caravan who took Jospeh son of Jacob to Egypt. That was a divine plan to save millions of people (including the childen of Jacob) from death due to starvation. The going of Joseph to Egypt was a blessing in disguise for the Jews.

The messiah was to come from the line of Issac and he (Jesus) came from the line of Issac. Jesus did not come from the line of Ishmael. But the poor misled Jews did not accept him and they got him arrested through the Roman rulers (soldiers). That was bad enough for any man of God to be caught by government forces.

Abraham had much experience of the kings and their forces. That is why he settled his son Ishmael in the wilderness of Arabia. Muhammad was born after 50 generations after Abraham and Ishmael. He had much difficulty preaching the message of God to the pagans in Makkah. But there was no king or his army nearby to arrest Muhammad. That was the divine plan.

By the time the Roman or Persian powers became aware, the Muslims were slightly established to face the two big powers.

The Jews and the Christians and the Muslims all hail from the great man of God i.e. Abraham. There is no need for any of them to fight against each other. They belong to each other.
 
planten said:
The covenant was with the children of Abraham. i.e. Ishmael and Issac and their progeny.
Click to expand...
Based on which scripture?
The only authentic scripture for that covenant is found in the Bible and it does not say children of Abraham, it says Isaac:

"Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety? And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing! Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year. When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him."** (Genesis 17:17-22).

**
 
**Genesis 17, NIV. **:

4 As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.
Code: 
5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.

6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.

7 I will establish my covenant as **an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come**, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.

8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.

9 Then God said to Abraham, As for you, **you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come**.

10 **This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.**

11 You are to **undergo circumcision**, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.

12 **For the generations to come** every male among you who is eight days old **must be circumcised**, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner— those who are not your offspring.

13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. **My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant**.

14 **Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.**
 
Hey planten, you have trimmed Genesis 17 to suit your needs…

You should have continued quoting Genesis 17 till you reach verses 17-22…
 
Sam_777, here is the rest of that genesis chapter upto the end. Please see the son of Abraham mentioned in those lines.

15 God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”

17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!”

19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. [d] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.” 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.

23 On that very day **Abraham took his son Ishmael **and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 **Abraham and his son Ishmael **were both circumcised on that same day. 27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him.
 
planten said:
Sam_777, here is the rest of that genesis chapter upto the end. Please see the son of Abraham mentioned in those lines.

15 God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”

17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!”

19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. [d] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.” 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.

23 On that very day **Abraham took his son Ishmael **and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 **Abraham and his son Ishmael **were both circumcised on that same day. 27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him.
Click to expand...
Did you read verse 19?

It shows that Mohammed’s claim the line of Ishmael is NOT the true line that a God made his covenant with. It is indeed the Jews. All you are laying claim to is that Ishmael got circumcized. big deal. (sarcasm) Both were to be prosperous, but Ishmael is not the line that the God of Israel chose.

This article is pretty good and shows the differences between the Biblical Abraham and the Koranic one.

I noticed one thing in these last verses and that was that
God didn’t say to circumcize the girls, or women. It does seem to be a pre-Islamic practice in many cultures and since it is not in the Bible, I assume the Jews did not do it. So, I went to my copy of Sharia laws and looked it up, but then did a search on the internet too and found that the original Arabic text is very different from the English translation.

from Reliance of the Traveller
The Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law ‘Umdat al-Salik
by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 769/1368) in Arabic with
Facing English Text, Commentary, and Appendices
Edited and Translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller

In this book, in the section titled “THE BODY”, we find on page 59 the following entry:

Nuh Hah Mim Keller’s Translation Arabic Original

e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. Bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)"

Here is the Arabic:


However what the Arabic actually says is:

Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female)
by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male,
but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris
(this is called HufaaD). {bold emphasis ours}

So we are misled in the translations and it also explains why it is still practiced in Islam. Sometimes I will read some of the Sharia laws and find it extraordinary that anyone would believe in some of them.

Now, we see one diversion from what the Bible says. I also noted quite a few other diversions.

Is this why Muslims prefer a different version of the Bible stories in their Korans? To make the stories twist to what they want?
 
staffsgt7 said:
Did you read verse 19?

It shows that Mohammed’s claim the line of Ishmael is NOT the true line that a God made his covenant with. It is indeed the Jews. All you are laying claim to is that Ishmael got circumcized. big deal. (sarcasm) Both were to be prosperous, but Ishmael is not the line that the God of Israel chose.

This article is pretty good and shows the differences between the Biblical Abraham and the Koranic one.

I noticed one thing in these last verses and that was that
God didn’t say to circumcize the girls, or women. It does seem to be a pre-Islamic practice in many cultures and since it is not in the Bible, I assume the Jews did not do it. So, I went to my copy of Sharia laws and looked it up, but then did a search on the internet too and found that the original Arabic text is very different from the English translation.

from Reliance of the Traveller
The Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law ‘Umdat al-Salik
by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 769/1368) in Arabic with
Facing English Text, Commentary, and Appendices
Edited and Translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller

In this book, in the section titled “THE BODY”, we find on page 59 the following entry:

Nuh Hah Mim Keller’s Translation Arabic Original

e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. Bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)"

Here is the Arabic:
http://answering-islam.org/Sharia/fem-circumcision.gif

However what the Arabic actually says is:

Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female)
by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male,
but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris
(this is called HufaaD). {bold emphasis ours}

So we are misled in the translations and it also explains why it is still practiced in Islam. Sometimes I will read some of the Sharia laws and find it extraordinary that anyone would believe in some of them.

Now, we see one diversion from what the Bible says. I also noted quite a few other diversions.

Is this why Muslims prefer a different version of the Bible stories in their Korans? To make the stories twist to what they want?
Click to expand...
NO
 
planten said:
NO
Click to expand...
You quoted from the Bible and then you tell me ‘no’ that Islam doesn’t twist the stories. That doesn’t make sense since they are indeed different. You highlight the parts about circumcision, which is really nothing. So, Ishmael got circumcised. So what, in the scheme of things. So, the guy got some flesh taken off. Both of Abraham’s kids got that flesh taken off.

How do you resolve that in your head? The line of Isaac is the true line, not Ishmael’s line. And you even quoted the Bible about it.
 
staffsgt7 said:
You quoted from the Bible and then you tell me ‘no’ that Islam doesn’t twist the stories. That doesn’t make sense since they are indeed different. You highlight the parts about circumcision, which is really nothing. So, Ishmael got circumcised. So what, in the scheme of things. So, the guy got some flesh taken off. Both of Abraham’s kids got that flesh taken off.

How do you resolve that in your head? The line of Isaac is the true line, not Ishmael’s line. And you even quoted the Bible about it.
Click to expand...
** YES**
 
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