Abraham's believing reckoned for righteousness

[Bookcat]

Pope Benedict XVI ]on the subjects of Faith and Works in St. Paul

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (scroll down)

Plus earlier one:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

A very good point indeed! You have no objective standard all you have is your own opinion and you cant say its any better than ours.

Also notice you cannot quote one ECF who claims as you do that Rome has no authority because she doesn’t “look” the same.

What you don’t seem to get is that the Church’s life develops organically. She grows in depth and knowledge under the superintendance of the Holy Spirit. Her practices follow suit over time. Even a Protestant has to see that the Church in the book of Acts is only an embryonic form of what was to come. No Protestant group looks exactly like them either. What she doesn’t lose my friend is her authority.*

Precisely. This is why St. Paul uses Genesis 15:6 to show the Jews that Abraham was justified before any law - ceremonial or moral - had been introduced. Abraham’s justification came before keeping any law. It came by works of faith. That is why the confrontation he presents is really between law vs. faith and not works of faith vs. “saving” faith. When St. Paul condemns “works” in Romans 4, it is under the context of the Law:
*
“For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless…” (Romans 4:14)
*
Notice how St. Paul naturally goes from speaking about “works” and “circumcision” to the “law” in verse 14? It’s because he is trying to draw a sharp line between what comes from the law and what comes from faith.
*
“What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.” (Romans 9:30-32)
*
Notice again, St. Paul’s clear association with the law and works:
*
Gentiles pursued righteousness by faith.
*
Israel pursued a law of righteousness by works.
*
Clearly Paul distinguishes the kind of righteousness which both groups sought: the Gentiles pursued “gracious” righteousness through faith while Israel pursued a “legal righteousness” through works. The former does not seek to obligate God; the latter most certainly does. But how can you pursue righteousness by faith? “Pursue” is a verb. “Righteousness” involves “goodness and truth”. To pursue goodness and truth, you inevitably must act. And action means works of faith. This is why St. Paul says in Galatians:
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“The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” (Galatians 5:6 NIV)
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It’s not just “faith” that counts; it’s “faith expressing itself through love.” Again, faith must work through love. It is a marriage of sorts. This is the reason why James says:
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“Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.” (James 2:17)
*
Notice that faith by itself cannot be alive. It needs the other the lung to breathe.

St. Paul uses Habukkuk like he used Abraham: to show us how justification is wrought through faith TO faith; from one test to another. Both of these men were repeatedly tested by God their whole lives, and they LIVED (i.e. through actions) their faith from one moment of existence to another. There are trials that come up that must be faced and conquered. If Habakkuk or Abraham failed in the works leading from one faith test to another faith test, one could not say that they lived from faith to faith. They would have started out with “faith”, but a trial might have come upon one of them to make them lose the second moment of “faith”. If Abraham had refused to sacrifice Isaac, could St. Paul say that he lived from “faith to faith”? Quite evidently not since Abraham would not have trusted in God concerning his only son’s fate. You see, it’s quite simple, actually. You cannot really “believe in something” or have “faith in something” unless you are willing to put your body and soul on the line for it, and unless you are willing to sacrifice something for that belief. If you are not willing to do it, then you cannot be said to really believe in it. You see, works are required to bring faith to life. This is the reason St. James compares the faith without works to a body without a soul: “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.” (James 2:26). If you still maintain that you do have “faith” but insist on divorcing works from it (insofar as your justification is concerned) and therefore stopping its realization and actualization, then you have a dead faith, and a dead faith does not save.

"You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is j-u-s-t-i-f-i-e-d by what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:20-24)

But James and Paul see something unique about Abraham’s faith reckoned for righteousness. You see, when Abraham was justified by offering up Isaac his ‘‘works’’ were reckoned for righteousness. Now if someones work is reckoned for righteousness, then the man recieves wages for his labor. This is the argument of Romans 4:1-4, if any work was done for justification, then grace is null. There is no freeness to it (rom 3:24).

James recognizes the uniqueness of Abraham’s faith, rather than his works, were reckoned for righteousness

 

[Odell]

But James and Paul see something unique about Abraham’s faith reckoned for righteousness. You see, when Abraham was justified by offering up Isaac his ‘‘works’’ were reckoned for righteousness. Now if someones work is reckoned for righteousness, then the man recieves wages for his labor. This is the argument of Romans 4:1-4, if any work was done for justification, then grace is null. There is no freeness to it (rom 3:24).

This kind of argument only brings the discussion back one step but it does not resolve the issue. How, when, where and why is righteousness applied to the sinner. Catholicism has made it very clear in their historic documents that the meritorious cause of justification is solely the atonement of Christ.

God can not be out in the position to legally obligated to pay anybody. However God can pay what God thanks man is worth because God is honest and just (Heb 6:10)
I have stressed when Pual condemns law he does under the perspective of legal obligation. Paul does not condemn law as a guide to or part of faith and righteousness. Paul" do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all rather we uphold the law" Did the law not speak of faith, not law, as a means of justification"?
The law can never force one to love and have faith it can only point one in the direction of virtues.
So when Paul in Romans 2 says only one who obey the law will be justified he is not talking about works that obligate God as in Roman 4:4 but works done under grace. Notice I did not totally dismiss this verse Paul doesn’t contradict himself!*
And as long as you refuse to see the difference in strict merit due from obligation and gracious merit provided by benevolence, we will get nowhere on this.

James recognizes the uniqueness of Abraham’s faith, rather than his works, were reckoned for righteousness

That’s not what James is saying at all.*

"You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? **Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? **You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is **j-u-s-t-i-f-i-e-d by **what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:20-24)

You want proof that we are rewarded eternal life do to our work

(Rom2:5-10) But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Also, if the gift of righteousness (rom 3:21) refers to the God pleasing righteousness of old testament saints whose works were done by faith, what is so new about it?

In Romans 3:21 you must put it in context, the righteousness of God is ‘‘now’’ revealed in the gospel. What’s so new about the meaning you give it?

 

[Bookcat]

Article from Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers: jimmyakin.com/library/the-justifications-of-abraham

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

This kind of argument only brings the discussion back one step but it does not resolve the issue. How, when, where and why is righteousness applied to the sinner. Catholicism has made it very clear in their historic documents that the meritorious cause of justification is solely the atonement of Christ.

God can not be out in the position to legally obligated to pay anybody. However God can pay what God thanks man is worth because God is honest and just (Heb 6:10)
I have stressed when Pual condemns law he does under the perspective of legal obligation. Paul does not condemn law as a guide to or part of faith and righteousness. Paul" do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all rather we uphold the law" Did the law not speak of faith, not law, as a means of justification"?
The law can never force one to love and have faith it can only point one in the direction of virtues.
So when Paul in Romans 2 says only one who obey the law will be justified he is not talking about works that obligate God as in Roman 4:4 but works done under grace. Notice I did not totally dismiss this verse Paul doesn’t contradict himself!*
And as long as you refuse to see the difference in strict merit due from obligation and gracious merit provided by benevolence, we will get nowhere on this.

That’s not what James is saying at all.*

"You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? **Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? **You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is **j-u-s-t-i-f-i-e-d by **what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:20-24)

You want proof that we are rewarded eternal life do to our work

(Rom2:5-10) But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Your not recognizing what James says. He is and the scripture was fulfilled which said ‘‘Abraham believed God and it was accounted for righteousness’’. In other words James see a prophecy in genesis 15:6 that is not fulfilled yet.

Also the sungenis idea that God can maintain a salvation of grace where mans work is not debt of payment but simply the god pleasing life is not going to work.

For instance when Paul says ‘‘for by grave you have been saved, through faith, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God’’ (Ephesians 2:8-9) he totally excludes works as a maintenance if grace and faith. Otherwise the two are nullified.

God himself makes the transition from deadness to alivness nothing we do but faith

 

[thenobes]

Your not recognizing what James says. He is and the scripture was fulfilled which said ‘‘Abraham believed God and it was accounted for righteousness’’. In other words James see a prophecy in genesis 15:6 that is not fulfilled yet.

Also the sungenis idea that God can maintain a salvation of grace where mans work is not debt of payment but simply the god pleasing life is not going to work.

For instance when Paul says ‘‘for by grace you have been saved, through faith, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God’’ (Ephesians 2:8-9) he totally excludes works as a maintenance if grace and faith. Otherwise the two are nullified.

God himself makes the transition from deadness to alivness nothing we do but faith

If you check the Greek, you will see that “it” following “not of yourselves” is of neuter gender, and by implication references neither the words grace nor faith but the process of salvation. Thus the process of salvation is not put into effect by works, but by grace through faith. But that does not mean it is not maintained by our works, done of course by the leading of the Spirit.

BTW I am not an ancient Greek scholar. This is information I gleaned from a Reformed website in an argument from a person who eventually moved toward Orthodoxy,if I recall correctly.

peace
steve

 

[Bookcat]

They did not view Rome as THE CHURCH that christ is infallibily building. They understood Rome as the more endowed church among many churches that contain the apostolic depository.
The idea of a ROMAN Catholic church would have been appaulling to churches around the world

The Office of Peter is the key.

The term to be used is not the “Roman Catholic Church” but the “Catholic Church” Which is why the term for the Catechism is the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”

The “Roman Catholic Church” is one Church within the Catholic Church. Though some like to use the term to refer to the Catholic Church --really the appropriate term is the Catholic Church.

(I have not been following the thread…so my post here may be out of context some…)

 

[Bookcat]

Pope Benedict XVI

"The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes? When Paul met the Risen One on the road to Damascus he was an accomplished man; irreproachable according to the justice deriving from the Law (cf. Phil 3: 6), Paul surpassed many of his contemporaries in the observance of the Mosaic Law and zealously upheld the traditions of his fathers (cf. Gal 1: 14). The illumination of Damascus radically changed his life; he began to consider all merits acquired in an impeccable religious career as “refuse”, in comparison with the sublimity of knowing Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 8). The Letter to the Philippians offers us a moving testimony of Paul’s transition from a justice founded on the Law and acquired by his observance of the required actions, to a justice based on faith in Christ. He had understood that what until then had seemed to him to be a gain, before God was, in fact, a loss; and thus he had decided to stake his whole existence on Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 7). The treasure hidden in the field and the precious pearl for whose purchase all was to be invested were no longer in function of the Law, but Jesus Christ, his Lord.

The relationship between Paul and the Risen One became so deep as to induce him to maintain that Christ was no longer solely his life but also his very living, to the point that to be able to reach him death became a gain (cf. Phil 1: 21). This is not to say he despised life, but that he realized that for him at this point there was no other purpose in life and thus he had no other desire than to reach Christ as in an athletics competition to remain with him for ever. The Risen Christ had become the beginning and the end of his existence, the cause and the goal of his race. It was only his concern for the development in faith of those he had evangelized and his anxiety for all of the Churches he founded (cf. 2 Cor 11: 28) that induced him to slow down in his race towards his one Lord, to wait for his disciples so they might run with him towards the goal. Although from a perspective of moral integrity he had nothing to reproach himself in his former observance of the Law, once Christ had reached him he preferred not to make judgments on himself (cf. 1 Cor 4: 3-4). Instead he limited himself to resolving to press on, to make his own the One who had made him his own (cf. Phil 3: 12).

It is precisely because of this personal experience of relationship with Jesus Christ that Paul henceforth places at the centre of his Gospel an irreducible opposition between the two alternative paths to justice: one built on the works of the Law, the other founded on the grace of faith in Christ. The alternative between justice by means of works of the Law and that by faith in Christ thus became one of the dominant themes that run through his Letters: “We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law; because by works of the law no one will be justified” (Gal 2: 15-16). And to the Christians of Rome he reasserts that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rm 3: 23-24). And he adds “we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law” (ibid., v. 28). At this point Luther translated: “justified by faith alone”. I shall return to this point at the end of the Catechesis. First, we must explain what is this “Law” from which we are freed and what are those “works of the Law” that do not justify. …

Keep reading: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

 

[Bookcat]

Then read:

Pope Benedict XVI:

The Doctrine of Justification: The Apostle’s Teaching on Faith and Works

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

In the Catechesis last Wednesday I spoke of how man is justified before God. Following St Paul, we have seen that man is unable to “justify” himself with his own actions, but can only truly become “just” before God because God confers his “justice” upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”. This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith.

Thus, in our last Catechesis, we discovered two levels: that of the insignificance of our actions and of our deeds to achieve salvation, and that of “justification” through faith which produces the fruit of the Spirit. The confusion of these two levels has caused more than a few misunderstandings in Christianity over the course of centuries. In this context it is important that St Paul, in the same Letter to the Galatians radically accentuates, on the one hand, the freely given nature of justification that is not dependent on our works, but which at the same time also emphasizes the relationship between faith and charity, between faith and works: “In Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love” (Gal 5: 6). Consequently, there are on the one hand “works of the flesh”, which are “immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry…” (Gal 5: 19-20): all works that are contrary to the faith; on the other, there is the action of the Holy Spirit who nourishes Christian life, inspiring “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control” (Gal 5: 22-23). These are the fruits of the Spirit that blossom from faith…

Keep reading: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

 

[Bookcat]

Then read an older one:

Pope Benedict XVI:

St Paul’s new outlook

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

In our previous Catechesis two weeks ago, I endeavoured to sketch the essential lines of the biography of the Apostle Paul. We saw how his encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus literally revolutionized his life. Christ became his raison d’être and the profound motivation of all his apostolic work.

In his Letters, after the Name of God which appears more than 500 times, the name most frequently mentioned is Christ’s (380 times). Thus, it is important to realize what a deep effect Jesus Christ can have on a person’s life, hence, also on our own lives. Actually, the history of salvation culminates in Jesus Christ, and thus he is also the true discriminating point in the dialogue with other religions.

Looking at Paul, this is how we could formulate the basic question: how does a human being’s encounter with Christ occur? And of what does the relationship that stems from it consist? The answer given by Paul can be understood in two stages.

In the first place, Paul helps us to understand the absolutely basic and irreplaceable value of faith. This is what he wrote in his Letter to the Romans: “We hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (3: 28).

This is what he also wrote in his Letter to the Galatians: “[M]an is not justified by works of the law but only through faith in Jesus Christ; even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified” (2: 16).

“Being justified” means being made righteous, that is, being accepted by God’s merciful justice to enter into communion with him and, consequently, to be able to establish a far more genuine relationship with all our brethren: and this takes place on the basis of the complete forgiveness of our sins.

Well, Paul states with absolute clarity that this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24). With these words St Paul expressed the fundamental content of his conversion, the new direction his life took as a result of his encounter with the Risen Christ…

Keep reading: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Yes I read these. I really don’t see the relevance.

Protestants have always believed that faith and works are together like a body and soul. Protestants have always believed that we are judged by our works of love.

The issue here is how is a man declared right with God. Is it by goood works which are done by the power of holy spirit after baptism, or is it a state of blessing one enter upon conversion (rom 5:1-3) the consists in having our sins remitted by the blood of jesus. Or is it both?

 

[Richca]

How do catholics understand the verse Geneis 15:6 “Abraham believed God and it was accounted for righteousness”

Doesn’t this mean that St. Paul is teaching that Abraham’s believing in God was a righteous act?

Erick_ybarra: if your trying to make a point on this thread. Please tell me/us what exactly is it? If I knew what the point is your trying to make, I might be able to respond with a reasonable post.

 

[Odell]

Also the sungenis idea that God can maintain a salvation of grace where mans work is not debt of payment but simply the god pleasing life is not going to work.

What’s the hang up on sungenis?

To say God will not reward us out of benevolence because he is pleased with our inward righteousness is not going to cut it.*

For instance when Paul says ‘‘for by grave you have been saved, through faith, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God’’ (Ephesians 2:8-9) he totally excludes works as a maintenance if grace and faith. Otherwise the two are nullified.

No the works he has in mind are works done outside the realm of grace.

I notice you didn’t address Romans 2?

 

[Bookcat]

Yes I read these. I really don’t see the relevance.

Protestants have always believed that faith and works are together like a body and soul. Protestants have always believed that we are judged by our works of love.

The issue here is how is a man declared right with God. Is it by goood works which are done by the power of holy spirit after baptism, or is it a state of blessing one enter upon conversion (rom 5:1-3) the consists in having our sins remitted by the blood of jesus. Or is it both?

(not conceding what Protestants have always believed or not…there are some 30,000 communities out there…)

He answers much in those texts…(I suggest repeated readings…to catch all he says there)

One enters into a state of justification (not only declared I would note but *made *right by God) --NOT through good works or even works of the law. But by grace. Ordinarily through faith and baptism (extraordinarily as God so wills).

Then as a Christian he lives his faith in love and becomes more holy by grace - walking in the good works God has prepared for him – God further as the Liturgy says “crowns his own gifts”.

Now if a Christian falls into mortal sin and separates himself from God --either by a mortal sin of commission or of omission – he needs to be restored by God to that state of grace.

 

[Godfollower]

Your not recognizing what James says. He is and the scripture was fulfilled which said ‘‘Abraham believed God and it was accounted for righteousness’’. In other words James see a prophecy in genesis 15:6 that is not fulfilled yet.

Also the sungenis idea that God can maintain a salvation of grace where mans work is not debt of payment but simply the god pleasing life is not going to work.

For instance when Paul says ‘‘for by grave you have been saved, through faith, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God’’ (Ephesians 2:8-9) he totally excludes works as a maintenance if grace and faith. Otherwise the two are nullified.

God himself makes the transition from deadness to alivness nothing we do but faith

You’re absolutely right, Erick; works are absolutely useless and have nothing to do with salvation. It’s right there in the Bible:

And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat, but you proclaimed your belief in Me; I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink, but you acknowledged Me as your Savior; I was a stranger, and you took me not in, but you had faith in Me: Naked, and you covered me not, though you thanked Me for My Grace: sick, and you visited me not, but you argued with all and sundry that faith alone saves: I was in prison, and you came not to me, but rather sat on your haunches and did nothing, because you realized that faith alone is necessary for salvation, and works count for nothing. Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee not; thirsty, and gave not thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger, and took not thee in? or naked, and covered thee not? Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came not to thee? And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these my least brethren, you did it not to me. But thou art saved for all eternity, because faith alone is necessary for salvation.

Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in: naked, and you covered me: sick and in prison, and you visited me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these least, you did it to me. And your reliance on performing such works shall condemn thee.

And these shall go into everlasting punishment for performing works: but the just, into life everlasting for believing that faith alone saves.

Matthew 25:31-46 (some modifications made to fit your theology).

[/sarcasm off – but it’s intended good-naturedly, honest].

Catholic theology is this: we believe ALL of the Bible, not just selected portions of it. We believe that GRACE alone saves us; but faith without works has no power to save (James 2:17, 26). In the end, the single most important question related to our salvation is how we treated our fellow human beings.

NOT because works somehow merit salvation. Simply because God told us to treat our fellow humans well.

Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21.

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:21.

Works are necessary for salvation. They do not suffice; and they do not earn our way into Heaven; but they are absolutely necessary.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Titus 3:7 says

‘‘But when the kindness and goodness of our God and Savior toward man appeared, he saved us, not by works of righteousness which have done, but according to his mercy by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit whom He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we should become hairs of the hope of eternal life’’.

When did this justification take place? Well, when did the washing take place? When did the regeneration take place?

If the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the holy spirit is a process lifelong, then justification can be lifelong. But I believe this is referring to baptism, a one time evebt

 

[Bookcat]

One is saved by Jesus Christ.

This occurs initially by grace through faith and baptism. Not by good works or works of the law.

Now one I then add the then by the grace of God one needs to remain living * in Christ*…and die as a Christian in Christ…in a state of Grace…there are various aspects to the question …here are some older files of Jimmy Akin…he would prob do better now…they are early…but he keeps them up warts and all for the his older files are still good cin.org/users/james/files/pastpres.htm cin.org/users/james/questions/q022.htm

It can happen though that some have faith and never get to baptism…(they can be killed for example or not have anyone to baptize them …or not know they need to…though this can thus be a baptism blood or desire)

It can happen that a person has faith infused for the first time in baptism…

It all depends on from what aspect we look at the question. And the particular person. And of course God sees more clearly than we do and sees what we do not.

In early Church – many converts were older and thus heard the proclamation of the Gospel and had faith (by grace of course)…and then were baptized. Some it seems were infants (whole households were baptized as we see in Acts) and were baptized into the faith of the Church and thus faith was infused into them for the first time at baptism…

Today with many children being born into Christian homes …it thus happens the other way around…most receive faith at baptism and increase in it as they live more and more in Christ. Some are baptized at an older age and so likely first have faith first from hearing the Gospel. All is via grave. All is by the Holy Spirit…

Yes we need to follow Jesus Christ…and know him very personally but this developes…
Jesus can save an infant or a child who as of yet does not even know his name…and Jesus can also save a person who through no fault never hears his name in ways known to Him not to us.

All is from Jesus Christ and from his death and resurrection!

“Happy are you who believe!” (cf 1 Peter 2:7). Let us turn to Jesus! He alone is the way that leads to eternal happiness, the truth who satisfies the deepest longings of every heart, and the life who brings ever new joy and hope, to us and to our world."
~Homily at Yankee Stadium by Pope Benedict XVI

 

[Bookcat]

Paul is speaking there of Faith and Baptism.

He is speaking to ordinary Christians --who are “living in Christ”

 

[Bookcat]

One is saved by Jesus Christ.

This occurs initially by grace through faith and baptism. Not by good works or works of the law.

Now one I then add the then by the grace of God one needs to remain living * in Christ*…and die as a Christian in Christ…in a state of Grace…there are various aspects to the question …here are some older files of Jimmy Akin…he would prob do better now…they are early…but he keeps them up warts and all for the his older files are still good cin.org/users/james/files/pastpres.htm cin.org/users/james/questions/q022.htm

It can happen though that some have faith and never get to baptism…(they can be killed for example or not have anyone to baptize them …or not know they need to…though this can thus be a baptism blood or desire)

It can happen that a person has faith infused for the first time in baptism…

It all depends on from what aspect we look at the question. And the particular person. And of course God sees more clearly than we do and sees what we do not.

In the early Church – many converts were older and thus heard the proclamation of the Gospel and had faith (by grace of course)…and then were baptized. As for infants or very small children (note whole households were baptized as we see in Acts) that were baptized into the faith of the Church and for them – faith was infused into them for the first time at baptism…

Today with many children being born into Christian homes …it thus happens the other way around…most receive faith at baptism and increase in it as they live more and more in Christ (or fall away for a while and have to return). Some are baptized at an older age and so likely first have faith first from hearing the Gospel. All is via grave. All is by the Holy Spirit…

A Christian is then to follow Jesus Christ…and know him very personally but this developes…

Jesus can save an infant or a child who as of yet does not even know his name…and Jesus can also save a person who through no fault never hears his name in ways known to Him not to us.

Now if a person who has been justified and made holy --who is “in Christ” by grace via Faith and Baptism --falls into mortal sin --cuts himself off by the sin which is deadly. He will need God to again restore him to “justification”. So he will have left the state of grace – of justification-- and once again by the love and mercy of God --by the blood of Jesus Christ --need to be make right again --so he can be again by the gift and grace of God – “living” in Christ.

All is from Jesus Christ and from his death and resurrection!

“Happy are you who believe!” (cf 1 Peter 2:7). Let us turn to Jesus! He alone is the way that leads to eternal happiness, the truth who satisfies the deepest longings of every heart, and the life who brings ever new joy and hope, to us and to our world."
~Homily at Yankee Stadium by Pope Benedict XVI