Abraham's believing reckoned for righteousness

[Erick_Ybarra]

But we are not dealing with the specific argument of Paul.

Paul says that if Abraham was justified by works, he would have reason to boast. But what did the scripture say? Abraham believed God and it was reckoned for righteousness. ‘’

Since we know works here refer generally to any demand or command of God, Abraham was justified apart from any of that, by faith, no?

How do we know these works refer to any and all of the law? Because the works of the law brings the knowledge of sin and Paul applies the command to not covet to this.

 

[Bookcat]

One is saved by Jesus Christ.

This occurs initially by grace (ordinarily) through faith and baptism. Not by good works or works of the law.

Now I must then add the then by the grace of God one needs to remain living * in Christ*…and die as a Christian in Christ…in a state of Grace…there are various aspects to the question …here are some older files of Jimmy Akin…he would prob do better now…they are early…but he keeps them up warts and all for the his older files are still good cin.org/users/james/files/pastpres.htm cin.org/users/james/questions/q022.htm

It can happen though that some have faith and never get to baptism…(they can be killed for example or not have anyone to baptize them …or not know they need to…though this can thus be a baptism blood or desire)

It can happen that a person has faith infused for the first time in baptism…

It all depends on from what aspect we look at the question. And the particular person. And of course God sees more clearly than we do and sees what we do not.

In the early Church – many converts were older and thus heard the proclamation of the Gospel and had faith (by grace of course)…and then were baptized. As for infants or very small children (note whole households were baptized as we see in Acts) that were baptized into the faith of the Church and for them – faith was infused into them for the first time at baptism…

Today with many children being born into Christian homes …it thus happens the other way around…most receive faith at baptism and increase in it as they live more and more in Christ (or fall away for a while and have to return). Some are baptized at an older age and so likely first have faith first from hearing the Gospel. All is via grave. All is by the Holy Spirit…

A Christian is then to follow Jesus Christ…and know him very personally but this developes…

Jesus can save an infant or a child who as of yet does not even know his name…and Jesus can also save a person who through no fault never hears his name in ways known to Him not to us.

Now if a person who has been justified and made holy --who is “in Christ” by grace via Faith and Baptism --falls into mortal sin --cuts himself off by the sin which is deadly. He will need God to again restore him to “justification”. So he will have left the state of grace – of justification-- and once again by the love and mercy of God --by the blood of Jesus Christ --need to be made right again --so he can be again by the gift and grace of God – “living” in Christ.

And of course he by the grace of God is to “walk in love” and grow in holiness and yes even merit – as the Liturgy of the Church says though --God is crowning his own gifts.

“Happy are you who believe!” (cf 1 Peter 2:7). Let us turn to Jesus! He alone is the way that leads to eternal happiness, the truth who satisfies the deepest longings of every heart, and the life who brings ever new joy and hope, to us and to our world."

~Homily at Yankee Stadium by Pope Benedict XVI

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

You’re absolutely right, Erick; works are absolutely useless and have nothing to do with salvation. It’s right there in the Bible:

Matthew 25:31-46 (some modifications made to fit your theology).

[/sarcasm off – but it’s intended good-naturedly, honest].

Catholic theology is this: we believe ALL of the Bible, not just selected portions of it. We believe that GRACE alone saves us; but faith without works has no power to save (James 2:17, 26). In the end, the single most important question related to our salvation is how we treated our fellow human beings.

NOT because works somehow merit salvation. Simply because God told us to treat our fellow humans well.

Matthew 7:21.

John 14:21.

Works are necessary for salvation. They do not suffice; and they do not earn our way into Heaven; but they are absolutely necessary.

I don’t deny this teaching of Jesus at all. In fact I have quoted this teaching to many catholics who I’ve encountered before, trying to show them the necessity of good works

I really don’t appreciate everyone assuming that I believe in some easy belivist billy Graham gospel

 

[Richca]

The issue here is how is a man declared right with God. Is it by goood works which are done by the power of holy spirit after baptism, or is it a state of blessing one enter upon conversion (rom 5:1-3) the consists in having our sins remitted by the blood of jesus. Or is it both?

A man is declared right (justified) with God in baptism whereby his sins are forgiven through the merits of Christ. In baptism, we are made partakers in the divine nature through sanctifying grace, a supernatural free gift. Baptism demands faith and a profession of faith on the part of the recipient. The process of being justified with God is:
1. God’s infusion of grace
2. Moved by grace and cooperating with it, man turns towards God by faith and
3. away from sin
4. the remission of sins.

Once justified, a person can merit an increase of sanctification or sanctifying grace through good works. A person can also lose justification or sanctifying grace by mortal sin in which case he/she would have to be rejustified through the sacrament of penance.

 

[Godfollower]

I don’t deny this teaching of Jesus at all. In fact I have quoted this teaching to many catholics who I’ve encountered before, trying to show them the necessity of good works

Then you believe what the Catholic Church teaches, at least in this area. So what’s the problem?

I really don’t appreciate everyone assuming that I believe in some easy belivist billy Graham gospel

I’m not making assumptions about you; I’m using a helpful contrast to explain the Catholic position. At least, that’s the intent.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I believe that God saves the human being through the graces of baptism and faith. In and through baptism, we become joined to him whobwas raised from the dead creating a new human race wherein sin has no presence and the Holy Spirit gives the life of God.

By this we are also joined mystically to his death on the cross, ans so the adamic man is crucified and its practice of sin is overcome by the practice of righteousness.

However, when St. Paul is engaging in the topic of justification, which also occurs in baptism, he is referring to the communion of peace and good standing before God that comes through the remission of sins by the blood sacrifice of Jesus.

The good works that necessarily flow out if baptism are not, in my view, contributory to the justification (peace with God) that we already have (of course unless of mortal sin). The good works that flow out of being a new creation are necessary and will be used as a standard for who really is known by Jesus Christ. However the blood of Jesus also plays a role in thebfinal judgement.

 

[Bookcat]

But we are not dealing with the specific argument of Paul.

Paul says that if Abraham was justified by works, he would have reason to boast. But what did the scripture say? Abraham believed God and it was reckoned for righteousness. ‘’

.

Here this can be of help: “The Justifications of Abraham” by Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers

jimmyakin.com/library/the-justifications-of-abraham

 

[Godfollower]

I believe that God saves the human being through the graces of baptism and faith. In and through baptism, we become joined to him whobwas raised from the dead creating a new human race wherein sin has no presence and the Holy Spirit gives the life of God.

By this we are also joined mystically to his death on the cross, ans so the adamic man is crucified and its practice of sin is overcome by the practice of righteousness.

However, when St. Paul is engaging in the topic of justification, which also occurs in baptism, he is referring to the communion of peace and good standing before God that comes through the remission of sins by the blood sacrifice of Jesus.

The good works that necessarily flow out if baptism are not, in my view, contributory to the justification (peace with God) that we already have (of course unless of mortal sin). The good works that flow out of being a new creation are necessary and will be used as a standard for who really is known by Jesus Christ. However the blood of Jesus also plays a role in thebfinal judgement.

No, the Blood of Jesus is the only reason we have hope in the final judgment.
However, salvation is not a one-time event.

Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

Phillippians 2:12.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, having on the breastplate of faith and charity, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.

1 Thessalonians 5:8.

[To Timothy, who was already a believer] And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:15.

And that knowing the season; that it is now the hour for us to rise from sleep. For now our salvation is nearer than when we believed.

Romans 13:11.

And I do all things for the gospel’s sake: that I may be made partaker thereof.

1 Corinthians 9:26.

It’s an ongoing thing: a race to be run, even after baptism.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

How is Jesus blood the only reason?

 

[Richca]

I believe that God saves the human being through the graces of baptism and faith.

This is true for initial justification. But most people’s lives don’t end with baptism. The graces of baptism can be lost through mortal sin.

The good works that necessarily flow out if baptism are not, in my view, contributory to the justification (peace with God) that we already have (of course unless of mortal sin).

 

[Godfollower]

How is Jesus blood the only reason?

Catholic theology is that we are saved by grace alone. Faith is not what saves us; it is God’s grace, pure and simple. He chose to give us a chance for salvation that we do not deserve.

Now, before we all run around celebrating at having been saved, it must be pointed out that He conditioned that salvation. The condition is that we have to have faith – and, more specifically, a living faith, not a dead one. That, in turn, means that we are required to do His will – which is to love Him with all our heart, all our mind, all our strength, and all our soul; and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

And you can’t do that if you ignore your fellow man.

This does not mean that we earn our salvation. Our salvation comes solely through Jesus’ Sacrifice on the Cross. His Grace is what saves us.

If we do His will.

Does that help?

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Yeah I can see that

 

[Bookcat]

One is saved by Jesus Christ.

This occurs initially by grace (ordinarily) through faith and baptism. Not by good works or works of the law.

Now I must then add the then by the grace of God one needs to remain living * in Christ*…and die as a Christian in Christ…in a state of Grace…there are various aspects to the question …here are some older files of Jimmy Akin…he would prob do better now…they are early…but he keeps them up warts and all for the his older files are still good cin.org/users/james/files/pastpres.htm cin.org/users/james/questions/q022.htm

It can happen though that some have faith and never get to baptism…(they can be killed for example or not have anyone to baptize them …or not know they need to…though this can thus be a baptism blood or desire)

It can happen that a person has faith infused for the first time in baptism…

It all depends on from what aspect we look at the question. And the particular person. And of course God sees more clearly than we do and sees what we do not.

In the early Church – many converts were older and thus heard the proclamation of the Gospel and had faith (by grace of course)…and then were baptized. As for infants or very small children (note whole households were baptized as we see in Acts) that were baptized into the faith of the Church and for them – faith was infused into them for the first time at baptism…

Today with many children being born into Christian homes …it thus happens the other way around…most receive faith at baptism and increase in it as they live more and more in Christ (or fall away for a while and have to return). Some are baptized at an older age and so likely first have faith first from hearing the Gospel. All is via grave. All is by the Holy Spirit…

A Christian is then to follow Jesus Christ…and know him very personally but this developes…

Jesus can save an infant or a child who as of yet does not even know his name…and Jesus can also save a person who through no fault never hears his name in ways known to Him not to us.

Now if a person who has been justified and made holy --who is “in Christ” by grace via Faith and Baptism --falls into mortal sin --cuts himself off by the sin which is deadly. He will need God to again restore him to “justification”. So he will have left the state of grace – of justification-- and once again by the love and mercy of God --by the blood of Jesus Christ --need to be made right again --so he can be again by the gift and grace of God – “living” in Christ.

And of course he by the grace of God is to “walk in love” and grow in holiness and yes even merit – as the Liturgy of the Church says though --God is crowning his own gifts.

“Happy are you who believe!” (cf 1 Peter 2:7). Let us turn to Jesus! He alone is the way that leads to eternal happiness, the truth who satisfies the deepest longings of every heart, and the life who brings ever new joy and hope, to us and to our world."

~Homily at Yankee Stadium by Pope Benedict XVI

 

[Bookcat]

“In the Catechesis last Wednesday I spoke of how man is justified before God. Following St Paul, we have seen that man is unable to “justify” himself with his own actions, but can only truly become “just” before God because God confers his “justice” upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”. This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith.”

–Pope Benedict XVI (linked above)

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

But I just see how justification could be so fluid with scripture teaching this or any church father.

Paul’s locates our justification just as having been washed, regenerated, and recreated. All past tense referring to the one act of baptism

 

[Bookcat]

Paul’s locates our justification just as having been washed, regenerated, and recreated. All past tense referring to the one act of baptism

Sure and such is the case. (Repentance, Faith and Baptism of course are involved).

But a person who falls into mortal sin – is going to need to be restored to justification.

The life in him has ceased. He choose death. He needs to be restored to life.

And of course life can “increase” …one can become more and more holy (hopfully) by grace and “faith working through love”. etc.

 

[Bookcat]

"At the beginning of Christianity, the members of the Church were also called “saints”. In his First Letter to the Corinthians, St Paul addresses “those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (I Cor 1: 2).

Indeed, Christians are already saints because Baptism unites them to Jesus and to his Paschal Mystery, but at the same time they must become so by conforming themselves every more closely to him.

Sometimes, people think that holiness is a privileged condition reserved for the few elect. Actually, becoming holy is every Christian’s task, indeed, we could say, every person’s! The Apostle writes that God has always blessed us and has chosen us in Christ “that we should be holy and blameless before him… in love” (Eph 1: 3-5). …

The “Way” is Christ, the Son, the Holy One of God: “no one comes to the Father but by me [Jesus]” (cf. Jn 14: 6)."

–Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/angelus/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20071101_all-saints_en.html

 

[Bookcat]

But I just see how justification could be so fluid with scripture teaching this or any church father.

Paul’s locates our justification just as having been washed, regenerated, and recreated. All past tense referring to the one act of baptism

Here this will help from Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers:

jimmyakin.com/salvation-past-present-and-future

 

[Bookcat]

Paul’s locates our justification just as having been washed, regenerated, and recreated. All past tense referring to the one act of baptism

Here this will help from Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers:

jimmyakin.com/salvation-past-present-and-future

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Can anyone find a scripture, context, or summary from the NT that teaches that justification is a life-long process? And can anyone find a Early Church Father who also taught this?