Abrogating a holy day

[1ke]

Another important point is that the holy day has not been “aborgated”. Only the obligation has been abrogated. The feast remains a feast on the calendar. People who want to go to mass can still go to mass and celebrate the solemnity.

 

[SMHW]

Covering it doesn’t mean they learned it. It could be taught and not learned. The responsibility for that may not lay entirely with the educator.

I’ve heard some of my Catholic school classmates claim they were never taught something that I remember having been taught and examined.

We don’t know that. As I said they may themselves not have known. You can’t teach something you don’t know. The parents certainly do have an obligation to learn the Faith themselves so they can teach it.

All I can say is that I meet plenty of people who went through Catholic school or went through RCIA and don’t know certain basic elements of the Faith. We can test to see whether people know the Faith. So it isn’t as if it is impossible to determine whether people have learned things.

Children in Catholic schools usually ARE tested because they they are expected by both school and state to be learning something. Usually adults in RCIA are interviewed for readiness rather than for facts they have learned.

I think this speaks to why some bishops dispense from the obligation to attend Mass on some Holy Days of Obligation. Various cultures tend to be attached to certain Solemnities (whether universal or local). Catholics who come from a culture where a particular day plays a special role will incorporate Mass attendance into their schedule on that day but will fail to attend on a day which seems less important. People tend to remember facts that are important to them on more than just an intellectual level.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Not to put too fine a point on it, is it being implied that, say, Latinos are attached to Our Lady of Guadalupe, and attach more importance to that feast, and perhaps less importance to the January 1st Solemnity? So that is perhaps what “cultural reasons” means in reference to the Obligation on January 1st commonly being dispensed in Southern California?

 

[SMHW]

Not to put too fine a point on it, is it being implied that, say, Latinos are attached to Our Lady of Guadalupe, and attach more importance to that feast, and perhaps less importance to the January 1st Solemnity? So that is perhaps what “cultural reasons” means in reference to the Obligation on January 1st commonly being dispensed in Southern California?

I don’t know that I have ever heard that expressed but I wouldn’t be surprised. I have heard some express the opinion the American Church should consider the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe to be one of the most important for the United States.

 

[Phemie]

You know, I’m not sure I agree with you. In my church circle I doubt 1/10 of the parishioners know that Mary, Mother of God is a HDO if they even know what an HDO is. It’s never mentioned.

 

[Titivillus]

Not to put too fine a point on it, is it being implied that, say, Latinos are attached to Our Lady of Guadalupe, and attach more importance to that feast, and perhaps less importance to the January 1st Solemnity? So that is perhaps what “cultural reasons” means in reference to the Obligation on January 1st commonly being dispensed in Southern California?

More: I expect the Solemnity of Mary the Mother of God is overshadowed by the cultural holiday of New Year’s Day.

In the United States, the holy days of the Ascension, the Assumption, All Saints, and the Immaculate Conception all fall on merely mundane days on the secular calendar. Christmas is a holy day which has spilled over to become a holiday of the secular calendar. But the solemnity of Mary the Mother of God falls on a secular holiday which has no association with the holy day, and is overwhelmed by the cultural holiday.

 

[SMHW]

There is a slight difference between knowing what a HDO is and and knowing what days are HDOs.

I doubt most Americans could tell you what all six of the days we have in the United States. And I have seen posters on Catholic Answers complain about how the Epiphany used to be a HDO in the US before it was moved to Sunday. (It wasn’t, at least not in the lifetime of anyone born in the last 200 years.)

So there is considerable confusion about what the HDOs are. I imagine it is the same in Canada, England, Australia, Mexico, etc. as it is in the United States.

 

[SMHW]

More: I expect the Solemnity of Mary the Mother of God is overshadowed by the cultural holiday of New Year’s Day.

I would go so far as to say that January 1st has become something of a secular SPIRITUAL holiday. Over time it as picked up some ideas from Eastern religions and combined them with the “traditional” western resolutions and partying aspects. It’s a hard day with which to compete!

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

There is a slight difference between knowing what a HDO is and and knowing what days are HDOs.

Add to that the question of whether it’s an HDO this year. The obligation is abrogated if the holy day falls on a Saturday or Monday (and if it falls on Sunday you don’t really notice it as being different from the regular Sunday obligation) unless it’s one of the December holy days when the obligation holds even on a Saturday or Monday.

So first you have to know it’s a holy day, then you have to know what day of the week it is, then you actually have to remember to go on a day you’re not accustomed to going…and then you’re likely to skip it anyway because of work or family obligations.

Part of me thinks the Church should just remove the obligations. People would still attend on Christmas anyway. The other days that I often see people at Mass carry no obligation: Ash Wednesday, Thanksgiving, and Our Lady of Guadalupe.

 

[1ke]

unless it’s one of the December holy days when the obligation holds even on a Saturday or Monday.

Actually, the Immaculate Conception is not abrogated in the US if it falls on Saturday or Monday and this is only because it is the patronal feast of the US. This isn’t true outside of the US.

And Christmas is never abrogated, anywhere.

 

[twf]

I was visiting my parents over the holidays and the priest in their town clearly emphasized that Christmas and Mary, Mother of God are the two holy days of obligation in Canada. Here in Vancouver it’s always well advertised in bulletins etc as well. Our cathedral scheduled 8 Masses for the Jan 1 obligation (one vigil and 7 on New Year’s Day). I went to the 12:30 PM and it was standing room only. Gotta thank the Filipinos and other immigrant groups for a lot of that devotion.

 

[1ke]

In my church circle I doubt 1/10 of the parishioners know that Mary, Mother of God is a HDO if they even know what an HDO is.

It’s a willful ignorance. I mean, the word obligation is pretty self explanatory.

 

[Phemie]

Shouldn’t be hard to remember, we’ve only had Christmas and Mary, Mother of God for the last 40 years.

I would be willing to bet that if you asked most under 50 if they knew what an HDO is the answer would be “no” and if you told them they had an obligation to attend Mass on those two days they’d tell you you were nuts.

 

[Vico]

I’ve been reading that some dioceses don’t observe January 1st as a Holy Day of Obligation. Does anyone know the reasoning behind that? I know that individual bishops may choose to not require it as a Holy Day (Canon 87 section 1), but I wondered specifically about the reason why they don’t.
Thanks!

Joanna Bogle comments on the Church in England and Wales:

“The thinking behind this is not daft. Many people, by failing to attend Mass on a Holy Day, miss out on the great reality of the feast, and the importance that it holds for us in our lives as Christians. The bishops believe that, rather than allow this to occur, the feast should be observed on a Sunday when more people are likely to be at Mass.”

Holy Days

Online Edition – September 2006 Vol. XII, No. 6 We Do Need Holy Days What message is sent when Bishops move (or remove) Holy Days from the Church calendar? by Joanna Bogle Editor’s note: In recent years, several national bishops’ conferences have transferred Holy Days of Obligation — days in...

adoremus.org

 

[babochka]

Another important point is that the holy day has not been “aborgated”. Only the obligation has been abrogated. The feast remains a feast on the calendar. People who want to go to mass can still go to mass and celebrate the solemnity.

Thank you so much for this! It drives me crazy when people say “such and such is not a Holy Day anymore, or in Canada, or this country or that…” Unless the Holy Day has actually been transferred to another day or removed from the cChurch calendar altogether, it remains a solemnity and will be celebrated as such in church. Go to Mass! Celebrate the Feast!

 

[babochka]

SMHW:

There is a slight difference between knowing what a HDO is and and knowing what days are HDOs.

Add to that the question of whether it’s an HDO this year. The obligation is abrogated if the holy day falls on a Saturday or Monday (and if it falls on Sunday you don’t really notice it as being different from the regular Sunday obligation) unless it’s one of the December holy days when the obligation holds even on a Saturday or Monday.

So first you have to know it’s a holy day, then you have to know what day of the week it is, then you actually have to remember to go on a day you’re not accustomed to going…and then you’re likely to skip it anyway because of work or family obligations.

Part of me thinks the Church should just remove the obligations. People would still attend on Christmas anyway. The other days that I often see people at Mass carry no obligation: Ash Wednesday, Thanksgiving, and Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Every parish that I’m familiar with lets people know about the obligation in the bulletin a couple of weeks in advance, as well as announcing it from the pulpit. So, if people are going to Mass regularly and they’re paying attention, there is no reason for them not to know or remember. Most people use a calendar or planner of some sort to keep their schedule straight. If it is important, put it on the calendar.

 

[babochka]

Shouldn’t be hard to remember, we’ve only had Christmas and Mary, Mother of God for the last 40 years.

I would be willing to bet that if you asked most under 50 if they knew what an HDO is the answer would be “no” and if you told them they had an obligation to attend Mass on those two days they’d tell you you were nuts.

Do they attend Mass regularly on Sunday? Do they generally pay attention in life? I am with @1ke The word obligation is self-explanatory. If they are confused, they should ask.

 

[phil19034]

1ke:

Catholics know what a holy day of obligation is. They know they are supposed to attend mass. But many do not. Some cannot, legitimately. I don’t know why other do not.

Not all. I know a cradle Catholic who went to Catholic schools through high school. She didn’t know what holy days of obligation are. She did hear a homily last year, I believe, on them. After that she started meeting her obligation. It was a homily that finally taught her, but she was somehow a Catholic going to Catholic schools and didn’t learn this.

The point is we have to be very careful in assuming Catholics know things as apparently they weren’t always well instructed. She might have never learned had a priest assumed everyone sitting in Mass knows what a holy day of obligation is.

I agree… I’m a cradle Catholic never knew of any Holy Days other than Christmas as a kid. I also though Ash Wednesday was a Holy Day too.

But I had never heard the term Holy Day of Obligation until I was an adult.

NOTE: I was born in 1977.

 

[phil19034]

Not to put too fine a point on it, is it being implied that, say, Latinos are attached to Our Lady of Guadalupe, and attach more importance to that feast, and perhaps less importance to the January 1st Solemnity? So that is perhaps what “cultural reasons” means in reference to the Obligation on January 1st commonly being dispensed in Southern California?

I don’t know how true this is, but I heard it partially had to do with all the festivities & traffic surrounding Rose Bowl and Rose Bowl Parade in Southern California.

But I don’t understand why Salt Lake City would dispense with the Obligation. They are not in the Province of Los Angeles.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Loud-living-dogma:

I’ve been reading that some dioceses don’t observe January 1st as a Holy Day of Obligation. Does anyone know the reasoning behind that? I know that individual bishops may choose to not require it as a Holy Day (Canon 87 section 1), but I wondered specifically about the reason why they don’t.
Thanks!

Joanna Bogle comments on the Church in England and Wales:

“The thinking behind this is not daft. Many people, by failing to attend Mass on a Holy Day, miss out on the great reality of the feast, and the importance that it holds for us in our lives as Christians. The bishops believe that, rather than allow this to occur, the feast should be observed on a Sunday when more people are likely to be at Mass.”

Holy Days

Well, that would explain why a Holy Day of Obligation would be to the Sunday. I suppose that has the same effect as abrogating the obligation, though, doesn’t it?