Abrogation - From God? Part 1

  • Thread starter Thread starter chrisse
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

chrisse

Guest
Below is the verses Father Zakaria quotes in his first discussion on abrogation. I’m not going to comment at this stage, and let you read the verses in context and the tafsir (explanation). All the links are authentic Islamic sites. If anyone is wondering how to get the explanation for verses in the qur’an, you can go this the tafsir link, select the sura and each verse and its explanation is there. I sort of guessed whereabout the verse was to find it, but the verse numbers precede the explanation.

Abrogation : to abolish by formal or official means; annul by an authoritative act; repeal; to abrogate a law.

Abrogation in the qur’an is allah’s way of revelation:

Medina : Sura 2 [106] None of our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?
Qur’an

Tafsir : Tafsir - The Meaning of Naskh

Makkah : Sura 16 [101] When We substitute one revelation for another, - and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), - they say, “Thou art but a forger”: but most of them understand not.
Qur’an
Tafsir - The Idolators’ Accusation that the Prophet was a Liar since some Ayat were abrogated, and the Refutation of their Claim

Makkah : Sura 13 [39] Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.
Qur’an
Tafsir: [tafsir.com]Tafsir](tafsir.com]Tafsir) - Meaning of Allah blotting out what He wills and confirming what He wills of the Book

Makkah : (refers to the infamous Satanic Verses) Sura 22 [52] Never did We send a Messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom:
[53] That He may make the suggestions thrown in by Satan, but a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and who are hardened of heart: verily the wrong-doers are in a schism far (from the Truth):
[54] And that those on whom knowledge has been bestowed may learn that the (Qur-an) is the Truth from thy Lord, and that they may believe therein, and their hearts may be made humbly (open) to it: for verily Allah is the Guide of those who believe, to the Straight Way.
Qur’an
Tafsir: [tafsir.com]Tafsir](tafsir.com]Tafsir) - How the Shaytan threw some Falsehood into the Words of the Messengers, and how Allah abolished that
Satanic Verses (Press button = English
Satanic Verses in the Book of Medicine
 
Abrogation is simply Muhammad’s “divine” word meaning “i changed my mind”.
 
inJESUS said:
Abrogation is simply Muhammad’s “divine” word meaning “i changed my mind”.
Click to expand...
Yes, inJesus, but I would go further. Abrogation in islamic terms is whatever suited mohammet at the time.

I’m doing this in parts (of which this is the first), for educational purposes, so people will fully understand the concept and the implications.
 
algebra said:
what is the point of this Chrisse?
Click to expand...
algebra, educational and also it’s a very large topic. I’m doing it in a number of parts to make it easier. At the end I’ll be posing the question (based on this aspect) - is the qur’an from YHWH?

I hold that the qur’an is nothing more than a created document first from Khadija’s uncle Waraqa (which I’ll also be discussing) - better known as the peaceful sura’s - and then from mohammet himself.
 
chrisse said:
I hold that the qur’an is nothing more than a created document first from Khadija’s uncle Waraqa (which I’ll also be discussing) - better known as the peaceful sura’s - and then from mohammet himself.
Click to expand...
Hmmm…I would agree with you.
 
algebra said:
what is the point of this Chrisse?
Click to expand...
i think it is a very important topic, and some Muslims who understand the implications of this topic refuse to say that there are any abrogations in the Quran.
 
inJESUS said:
refuse to say that there are any abrogations in the Quran.
Click to expand...
Never heard any muslim deny abrogation within the quran.

In the sunnah and supported by the quran itself is the greatest abrogation of all.

The changing of the kibla from jerusalem to mecca.
 
algebra said:
Never heard any muslim deny abrogation within the quran.

In the sunnah and supported by the quran itself is the greatest abrogation of all.

The changing of the kibla from jerusalem to mecca.
Click to expand...
this Islamic site accuses the abrogation theory of " turning religion into a game".

quranic.org/quran_article/25/turning_religion_into_a_game_nasih-mansuh.htm

And i agree, but unfortunately, what the Quran and Sunna say refute them, nevertheless, their conclusion couldn’t be more correct.
 
muslims believe in progressive revelation.

As society progressed, the laws changed to suit society
 
algebra said:
muslims believe in progressive revelation.

As society progressed, the laws changed to suit society
Click to expand...
That is incorrect, algebra. Islam accepts that there are people who are competent in itjihad (the ability and qualification to issue expert legal opinion) on particular questions which are new, ie to provide solutions to new ethical problems. In this sense only the door to itjihad can not be closed.

Outside of new ethical question, itjihad is closed. It’s in the trilogy : qur’an, hadiths, and sunnah.

Now what individual muslims believe, or the various sects (who are often treated as heretics and/or apostates) believe, is another matter. Unfortunately, numerically they are not of help in our current situation.♠️
 
algebra said:
muslims believe in progressive revelation.

As society progressed, the laws changed to suit society
Click to expand...
society progressed in 20 years which results in so many abrogations? what about the 1400 years that elapsed? does it mean the Quran belongs to “that” time period? Muslims say no it is eternal for all ages…
the Bible is a long process of progressive revelations, yet no prophet did what Muhammad did.
 
inJESUS said:
society progressed in 20 years which results in so many abrogations? what about the 1400 years that elapsed? does it mean the Quran belongs to “that” time period? Muslims say no it is eternal for all ages…
the Bible is a long process of progressive revelations, yet no prophet did what Muhammad did.
Click to expand...
👍 👍
 
chrisse said:
algebra, educational and also it’s a very large topic. I’m doing it in a number of parts to make it easier. At the end I’ll be posing the question (based on this aspect) - is the qur’an from YHWH?

I hold that the qur’an is nothing more than a created document first from Khadija’s uncle Waraqa (which I’ll also be discussing) - better known as the peaceful sura’s - and then from mohammet himself.
Click to expand...
it is so funny.

You are talking about Abrogation in Islam, while Christianity totally abrogated nearlly all of Judaism laws. ( even that jesus said he wouldnt do it) :rolleyes:
 
inJESUS said:
society progressed in 20 years which results in so many abrogations? what about the 1400 years that elapsed? does it mean the Quran belongs to “that” time period? Muslims say no it is eternal for all ages…
the Bible is a long process of progressive revelations, yet no prophet did what Muhammad did.
Click to expand...
err uhmm,

In the 20 years of Islam there were no previously muslims. In teh 1400 that followed people were BORN into islam . There is no need to graduation unless for newly converts who are any way allowed to take baby steps .
 
meedo said:
it is so funny.

You are talking about Abrogation in Islam, while Christianity totally abrogated nearlly all of Judaism laws. ( even that jesus said he wouldnt do it) :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
What I find funny, meedo, is that I’ve never met a muslim who has the mental dexterity to understand Islam 🤷 , must be something in that Islamic water 😉 Unless of course, they are ex-muslims. Yep, definitely the Islamic water.

As Jharek explained - Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour, God the Son, came to FULFILL the old laws and brought YHWH’s New Covenant to all mankind. All part of YHWH’s Divine plan for humanity’s salvation.

By the way, even your islamic scholars on abrogation agree Islam is the only religion that has it.
 
meedo said:
it is so funny.

You are talking about Abrogation in Islam, while Christianity totally abrogated nearlly all of Judaism laws. ( even that jesus said he wouldnt do it) :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
What do islam mean by “abrogation”? In my view, abrogation in Islam refer to their habit of changing and replacing old “truths” in Quran with new ones,thus rendering obsolete and replacing the old “truths” with new “truths”. But in Christianity, that is not done.
You accuse Christianity of “totally abrogated nearly all of Judaism laws.” In that concept of abrogation,I would say NO, Christianity did not abrogate. Jesus simply gave the true meaning of the Jewish laws. He came to fulfill the law, not to destroy them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top