Abrogation - From God? Part 1

[meedo]

I didn’t attempt to answer the question. I have wondered why would christians marvel about abrogation in Islam when it comes to specific law while a multitude of laws in Judaism is no more to be followed in Christianity.

While i commend you to theoretically empathise with stereotypes of Muslims. I see you right here and now think that by wondering about a valid issue , that i am a strategist or engaging in a diversion plan.

Could you imagine me as a muslim simply not making sense from some christian concepts without having a malicious intent behind it?

 

[meedo]

What I find funny, meedo, is that I’ve never met a muslim who has the mental dexterity to understand Islam , must be something in that Islamic water Unless of course, they are ex-muslims. Yep, definitely the Islamic water.

As Jharek explained - Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour, God the Son, came to FULFILL the old laws and brought YHWH’s New Covenant to all mankind. All part of YHWH’s Divine plan for humanity’s salvation.

By the way, even your islamic scholars on abrogation agree Islam is the only religion that has it.

You are entitled to your opinions on how muslims understand their faith.

In my simple mind , fullfiling a law doesnt mean not working by it. I do not see how this cannot be a sort of abrogation if you stop working by a law when you claim that you still linked to the old law.

Look, i am a muslim. But i am not a strategist nor i am making smoke screens. My question above seems to be pretty valid and straight forward.

Why i am not interested to discuss abrogation in Islam is because i dont any false logic in the instances where it happened. And in the light of the issue with christianity above, i cant but see that it is done not based on convicion but critisism based on ‘‘my religion makes more sense because it is my region’’ argument.

Many abroigations were easing muslims into their new faith. That si called bieng gradual . what is the problem in that ?

 

[meedo]

What do islam mean by “abrogation”? In my view, abrogation in Islam refer to their habit of changing and replacing old “truths” in Quran with new ones,thus rendering obsolete and replacing the old “truths” with new “truths”. But in Christianity, that is not done.
You accuse Christianity of “totally abrogated nearly all of Judaism laws.” In that concept of abrogation,I would say NO, Christianity did not abrogate. Jesus simply gave the true meaning of the Jewish laws. He came to fulfill the law, not to destroy them.

If your swimming instructor says he wont accept from you less than 100 meters in 30 seconds today . Comes in a month of training and says he wont accept of you less than 130 meters in the same time. would that be replacing old truths with new truths?!!

or if your father says it is ok that yopu live with him when you are 16 and comes and says that you shouldnt be living with him when you are 50 , is that replacing old truths with new truths?!!

It is very silly that i have to write it down to people, but laws change according to the situation. and TODAY in Islam it is accepted that graduation is best in maintaining ones commitment to prayers or observance.

I just fail to understand what is the problem with it?

 

[agangbern]

If your swimming instructor says he wont accept from you less than 100 meters in 30 seconds today . Comes in a month of training and says he wont accept of you less than 130 meters in the same time. would that be replacing old truths with new truths?!!

or if your father says it is ok that yopu live with him when you are 16 and comes and says that you shouldnt be living with him when you are 50 , is that replacing old truths with new truths?!!

It is very silly that i have to write it down to people, but laws change according to the situation. and TODAY in Islam it is accepted that graduation is best in maintaining ones commitment to prayers or observance.

I just fail to understand what is the problem with it?

What prevented your swimming instructor from informing me that after one month training I would have to swim 130 meters in the same time? Why in this “swimming game” has he have to hide something?

 

[meedo]

What prevented your swimming instructor from informing me that after one month training I would have to swim 130 meters in the same time? Why in this “swimming game” has he have to hide something?

May be not to despair of the difficult task ahead of you ? Especially if you are new to the whole issue?

 

[chrisse]

You are entitled to your opinions on how muslims understand their faith.

In my simple mind , fullfiling a law doesnt mean not working by it. I do not see how this cannot be a sort of abrogation if you stop working by a law when you claim that you still linked to the old law.

Look, i am a muslim. But i am not a strategist nor i am making smoke screens. My question above seems to be pretty valid and straight forward.

Why i am not interested to discuss abrogation in Islam is because i dont any false logic in the instances where it happened. And in the light of the issue with christianity above, i cant but see that it is done not based on convicion but critisism based on ‘‘my religion makes more sense because it is my region’’ argument.

Many abroigations were easing muslims into their new faith. That si called bieng gradual . what is the problem in that ?

meedo, my purpose here is primarily to provide Christians with the knowledge for inter-religious dialogue. I am providing them with authentic Islamic sources. I am allowing them to form their own opinions. If that is why you are here on the board, then what is the problem? What a pity you won’t discuss this with us. I’m sure many Christians here will have questions. So it will be left to me, and other Christians, to answer them.

Now, my OP question is valid. Muslims come to Christians and claim that the qur’an is the final revelation from God. Then, as they truly know the Almighty, they must be able to decide whether this final revelation is from God, or if it isn’t, why it isn’t. Freedom of religion, freedom to choose the path of the Almighty, is still ours to choose by our own free will - anything else is compulsion.

You claim that abrogation was easing new muslims into their new faith. Or as many muslims put it, it was for commands/permissions only - or what is halal and haram for a muslim to do. That is incorrect, as I will show in the next part.

 

[chrisse]

What I find funny, meedo, is that I’ve never met a muslim who has the mental dexterity to understand Islam , must be something in that Islamic water Unless of course, they are ex-muslims. Yep, definitely the Islamic water.

As Jharek explained - Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour, God the Son, came to FULFILL the old laws and brought YHWH’s New Covenant to all mankind. All part of YHWH’s Divine plan for humanity’s salvation.

By the way, even your islamic scholars on abrogation agree Islam is the only religion that has it.

Big oops here, I meant to “the mental dexterity to:diamonds:understand Christianity”. I edited a spelling mistake and missed the bigger one

 

[inJESUS]

it is so funny.

You are talking about Abrogation in Islam, while Christianity totally abrogated nearlly all of Judaism laws. ( even that jesus said he wouldnt do it)

i will tell you why your analogy is totally flawed. First, Jesus is not Moses, hence we are not talking about the same man abrogating his own words. Second, Jesus came thousands of years after Moses, meaning it wasn’t within 20 years. Third, Jesus brought a new covenant which means it isn’t like the previous one and the OT says the Messianic law is to rule for ever. Fourth, Jesus fulfills, does not destroy, meaning what was before had a reason, a plan, a forshadowing , a promise and a fulfillment. When you fulfill, you go a step further, you do not go backward and the progression is in God’s plan for humanity, for thousands of years, and to different audiances, not within 20 years to the same people. That being said, your analogy has nothing to do with a single man that has no covenant, no forshadowing, no place in scriptures, no fulfillment, changing his teachings within 20 years to the same audiance and this is why people accused him of teaching something and changing his mind the following day.

 

[inJESUS]

I didn’t attempt to answer the question. I have wondered why would christians marvel about abrogation in Islam when it comes to specific law while a multitude of laws in Judaism is no more to be followed in Christianity.

for different reasons. One, there are laws given to the Jewish people at specific times for specific reasons (that jews no longer observe), and there are laws pertaining to ritual and forgiveness purity (that Jews do not observe after the destruction of the temple) and there are moral laws that pertain to humanity as a whole like the 10 commandments. We do not observe what Jesus fulfilled (sacrifices, ritual, purity laws) and we do not observe what was intended to the Jewish people as a nation because we are not Jews. In other words, we do not have to become Jews in order to follow Jesus, we do not have to observe the old covenant laws if we have the new covenant ,just as you do not have to become a jew to follow Islam, not to mention that the Quran says that Jesus did change things.

 

[inJESUS]

You are entitled to your opinions on how muslims understand their faith.

In my simple mind , fullfiling a law doesnt mean not working by it. I do not see how this cannot be a sort of abrogation if you stop working by a law when you claim that you still linked to the old law.

Jesus did not destroy the Law, He fulfilled the old and brought a New Covenant to all humanity, not only Jews. If it were the same covenant, it wouldn’t be called a new covenant . Old Covenant to Jews, New covenant to humanity, which has nothing to do with one man abrogating his own words to the same audiance within 20 years.

 

[chrisse]

i will tell you why your analogy is totally flawed. First, Jesus is not Moses, hence we are not talking about the same man abrogating his own words. Second, Jesus came thousands of years after Moses, meaning it wasn’t within 20 years. Third, Jesus brought a new covenant which means it isn’t like the previous one and the OT says the Messianic law is to rule for ever. Fourth, Jesus fulfills, does not destroy, meaning what was before had a reason, a plan, a forshadowing , a promise and a fulfillment. When you fulfill, you go a step further, you do not go backward and the progression is in God’s plan for humanity, for thousands of years, and to different audiances, not within 20 years to the same people. That being said, your analogy has nothing to do with a single man that has no covenant, no forshadowing, no place in scriptures, no fulfillment, changing his teachings within 20 years to the same audiance and this is why people accused him of teaching something and changing his mind the following day.

Let me try and explain the fulfillment role of Christ’s New Covenant with us a little further. Christ did not abrogate the laws at all, however it is the timing of Christ’s arrival that is the defining point in God’s plan and hence His New Covenant.

In the time of Moses, people’s hearts were hard, ie humanity’s understanding was limited, primitive and without any or much philosophical basis. It was a time of brutal survival, as in survival of the fittest. Hence the old laws were true, however their implementation were relevant to those times only.

Christ came when the Jews were living within the Roman Empire. While they had limited autonomy, they could not implement fully the punishments, they were subject to Roman Law. That is, they couldn’t counter the laws and punishments of Caeser. This to me is part of the Lord’s plan, as he told us “unto Caeser what is Caeser”.

Now, by today’s standards, Caeser wasn’t very humanitarian. However, Roman Law formed a strong basis for our own civil laws today. So humanity had reached the point in its evolution of thought where the truth of God’s justice and love could start to be applied within the social order itself towards all, not just His believers. As we know, as Christians we are meant to influence the civil laws, and the society’s morality and ethics, by God’s Truths, not by force, but by living example and joining in the civil debate.

Jesus Christ came to fulfil the Almighty’s plan for all of humanity and guide us on the right path for our salvation, and equality and justice on earth for all.

 

[inJESUS]

It is very silly that i have to write it down to people, but laws change according to the situation. and TODAY in Islam it is accepted that graduation is best in maintaining ones commitment to prayers or observance.

 

[inJESUS]

Chrisee, Muslims do not realize that without the Temple more than half of the laws of Judaism were no longer applicable. For many Jews back then the destruction of the Temple meant the destruction of Judaism, and Christians do not observe them because Jesus fulfilled them, which boils down to both of us not prcticing them (Jews because of the temple’s destruction, and us because of Jesus’ fulfillment) and there were few years between Jesus’ fulfillment and the destruction of the temple that He prophecised, which is no coincidence of course and something they should ponder upon, if they believe there are no coincidences with God.

 

[dzheremi]

I didn’t attempt to answer the question.

A refreshing admission! Alhamdulillaah!

I have wondered why would christians marvel about abrogation in Islam when it comes to specific law while a multitude of laws in Judaism is no more to be followed in Christianity

There are all the reasons given by inJESUS and Chrisse. inJESUS’ first point is particularly good. What you would call “abrogation” in Christianity does not match in form with the abrogration in Islam, because Jesus never contradicts His own words as the Allah of the Qur’an must do to cause abrogration in the Qur’an. When Jesus shows a better way to the Jews, it is in essence reaffirming what they should have been following the whole time. There is no “I have something similar but better for you”, as Allah seems to be saying about abrogation. Rather it is, “you should have been doing this all along”. This is in harmony with the Old Testament, where we see verse after verse in which G_d tells the people that they aren’t behaving as they should. Within Christian thought, it is not even a question, then, whether or not Jesus has the authority to fulfill the old laws, because He has the authority of the Father from whom He is sent (keeping in mind that He never acts in any way contrary to the will of the Father, as they are of one substance/essence).

Could you imagine me as a muslim simply not making sense from some christian concepts without having a malicious intent behind it?

Yes. Could you imagine us as Christians getting the same sorts of arguments as you have made from Muslims day in and day out and eventually getting a little tired of people who will not at least accept the Christian position as the Christian position? If you are simply curious about what we believe, it should be enought that we are telling you over and over. If you still do not understand, we are happy to explain once more, but eventually you have to realize that there is a limit to what you will be able to understand if you keep trying to force Christian pegs into Islamic holes.

For every one Muslim I have seen who is genuine about dialogue here there are generally about 3-4 who are not. Remember that dialogue does not have to involve acceptance of viewpoints contrary to your own (by the grace of God, I will never accept Muhammad’s prophethood, for instance), but does necessarily require that you recognize the validity of the others’ argument as it relates to their own faith, not to your own. I find I spend most of my time here in conversations with Muslims who are misrepresenting Christianity (either willfully or not), NOT saying bad things about Muhammad or that Allah is a moongod or some other nonsense as some like to peddle around here.

The trouble with Islam for Christians, of course, is somewhat analogous to the problem of Christianity for Jews: It rests upon claims of continuity with the previous tradition(s), but those who remain in that previous tradition do not accept that claim. When a Christian asks “why abrogation in Islam?”, they are essentially asking how this doctrine fits in with the Christian and Jewish traditions that do not allow such a thing.

So…answer that without reference to Christianity, please.

 

[agangbern]

May be not to despair of the difficult task ahead of you ? Especially if you are new to the whole issue?

That would be shallow reason for the instructor. For the opposite would do better. If I knew ahead of the entire truth, then I would be more psychologically prepared for the entire event. But for not informing me of the entire truth, only the half truth did I learned. Therefore there was a lie all along.

That is what is happening with the Quran. People are caught with surprises by new “truths” that even contradict with previous"truths".