Absent Priest, Valid Mass?

[FrDavid96]

The priest is two people in the Mass, himself as a disciple, and in persona Christi.
He is not “transubstantiated” like the bread and wine, but speaks in persona Christi in virtue of his ordination, I believe.
This would mean that there is one person saying “Lord, I am unworthy that you should enter under my roof” and eating and drinking, and another person saying “This is my body, this is the chalice of my blood of the new covenant”, even when only the priest is there.

The disciple(s) must be present (and are present) in All cases for the Mass.

John Martin

I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that someone else “must” be there, or is there. That’s not any belief that the Church holds.

The priest is in persona Christi. That’s all. He is not two persons. He does not somehow represent the disciples.

Of course, the angels and saints are present at every Mass, so in that sense, yes the Apostles and Disciples are there; but I know that’s not what you mean.

 

[deaconjohnO]

A Communion service can fulfill your weekly obligation. There are several parishes in my area that end up having to have one or two a year when there is no priest available.

This is incorrect. We are dispensed from the obligation if Mass is not avail whether we attend a communion service or not.

You post implies that a communion service fulfills obligation. It does not.

DCN J

 

[Elizium23]

This is incorrect. We are dispensed from the obligation if Mass is not avail whether we attend a communion service or not.

You post implies that a communion service fulfills obligation. It does not.

DCN J

There is no dispensation, there is simply no obligation in this case.

 

[thistle]

You have most definitely heard wrong. We must also attend Mass on all Sundays and Holy Days of obligations, as well as go to confession at least once a year and receive communion at least once during the Easter season.

Actually that’s a misunderstanding many people have. There is no requirement to confess once a year. The requirement is to receive Communion once a year (during the Easter period). Confession is only required if you are in a state of mortal sin. In short, if you have not committed a mortal sin in a 12 month period (even if this seems unlikely) you have no requirement to confess.

 

[John_Martin]

I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that someone else “must” be there, or is there. That’s not any belief that the Church holds.

The priest is in persona Christi. That’s all. He is not two persons. He does not somehow represent the disciples.

Of course, the angels and saints are present at every Mass, so in that sense, yes the Apostles and Disciples are there; but I know that’s not what you mean.

Well, you tell me how the person of Jesus will say “Lord, I am unworthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed”. Yet the Priest is required to say that word. Both Christ and a Disciple of Christ are speaking during the Mass, even when only the Priest is there.

By the way, I am getting my ideas from a doctor friend of mine.

John Martin

 

[thistle]

Well, you tell me how the person of Jesus will say “Lord, I am unworthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed”. Yet the Priest is required to say that word. Both Christ and a Disciple of Christ are speaking during the Mass, even when only the Priest is there.

By the way, I am getting my ideas from a doctor friend of mine.

John Martin

Maybe you are unaware but FrDavid96 is a priest.

 

[pianistclare]

Maybe you are unaware but FrDavid96 is a priest.

It’s ok…FR David is a pretty nice guy…

 

[Heismysword]

This is incorrect. We are dispensed from the obligation if Mass is not avail whether we attend a communion service or not.

You post implies that a communion service fulfills obligation. It does not.

DCN J

That is interesting, I had always been told it fulfilled a Sunday obligation. Thank you for letting me know.

 

[John_Martin]

Maybe you are unaware but FrDavid96 is a priest.

Well, then he may be aware of my doctor friend / teacher - name of Thomas Aquinas - and if you read what I wrote, you would yourself be saying, "No, Jesus cannot say the words “I am unworthy for you to enter under my roof”. So, put your thinking cap on.

John Martin

 

[Elizium23]

I am sure Father David knows his Aquinas well. I am passingly familiar with him as well, and I am hard-pressed to believe that you are drawing directly on anything he said. I think you are applying your own interpretations.
The Westminster Handbook to Thomas Aquinas:

Christ’s offering in the Eucharist is in a secondary way also the offering of Christ’s people, here acting in discipleship to Christ and acting in a way made possible by their union to Christ as their head. In this connection, the comments that Aquinas provides about the priest are illuminating. In terms of real presence, the priest does act in persona Christi, and the contribution of the priest is that of an instrumental cause, through whom Christ and the Holy Spirit act in bringing about Christ’s real presence in this sacrament. Yet the priest in the liturgy also acts on behalf of Christ’s people, and in the prayers of the liturgy he offers up on their behalf their sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving (III.83.4 ad 5). In this sense, then, they too in the Eucharist are offering Christ to God-not as the principal agent (which is always Christ) but as joined to Christ and following his lead in his offering to God. True sacrifice, however, always involves Christ, and the effectiveness of this sacrifice is wholly derived from Christ.

Summa Theologica: primary source

So I hope you can understand our confusion when you add to Aquinas by saying the priest is two people, and that the disciples must be present, because neither is true. He takes on the persona of Christ throughout the Mass, while he acts on behalf of the disciples in some way, in some cases.

 

[John_Martin]

I am sure Father David knows his Aquinas well. I am passingly familiar with him as well, and I am hard-pressed to believe that you are drawing directly on anything he said. I think you are applying your own interpretations.

Summa Theologica: primary source

So I hope you can understand our confusion when you add to Aquinas by saying the priest is two people, and that the disciples must be present, because neither is true. He takes on the persona of Christ throughout the Mass, while he acts on behalf of the disciples in some way, in some cases.

Your quote from the Westminster Handbook also states that the Priest is two people (acting as two people)
the priest does act in persona Christi, and the contribution of the priest is that of an instrumental cause, through whom Christ and the Holy Spirit act in bringing about Christ’s real presence in this sacrament. Yet the priest in the liturgy also acts on behalf of Christ’s people,
Am I the only one who can see this??? Anyone else???

John Martin