Absolutely Must be Subject to Roman Pontiff?

[CollegeKid]

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

As Catholics, how do we reconcile this part of the papal bull Unam Sanctam with the belief that some can be saved even if they never enter formal communion with the Church during their lifetime?

 

[NotWorthy]

I think it means if the Pope says that we must wear Red on Fridays or else we’re all ex-communicated, then you’ll see me wearing red on Fridays!!!

Thanks goodness we have the Holy Spirit guiding him (Il Papa) to prevent him from making ridiculous bindings like this. I’m so glad Jesus has remained with His Church just like He promised!

Beside, I don’t look good in red.

Notworthy

 

[hurst]

CollegeKid:

As Catholics, how do we reconcile this part of the papal bull Unam Sanctam with the belief that some can be saved even if they never enter formal communion with the Church during their lifetime?

Simple. The Pope offers prayers for their salvation, and/or directs the Church to pray for them. They would not be saved if the Pope barred them from the benefit of its graces. And if they rejected what the Church offered, then they cannot be saved.

hurst

 

[mike182d]

Furthermore,

If one rejects the Pope, they do not just reject the Pope currently in office, but the office itself and the authority inherent within the Church. If you deny the authority of the Church, you deny every fruit of this authority: in particular the New Testament canon.

I can’t imagine one getting very far in their salvation by doing as such.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

As Catholics, how do we reconcile this part of the papal bull Unam Sanctam with the belief that some can be saved even if they never enter formal communion with the Church during their lifetime?

Doesn’t this suggest that the Pope has the authority to “save” or “condemn” folks, which I thought was the job solely reserved for God?

This particular declaration seems to be a bit self-serving and dare I say, egotistical. It may have been issued to reaffirm the Pope’s power in the political circumstances of the time. It would be interesting to know more about the historical context.

My thinking is that Christ loves everyone unconditionally and that he offers His Salvation unconditionally. He did what He did for all of mankind, not just Christians. I think that He welcomes everyone with open arms, even those that may worship God through the venues of different religions, unless they actively reject Him or do evil, which would be a form of actively rejecting Him.

 

[NotWorthy]

Then why did Christ begin so many statements with, “Unless one” does this? Or “Unless one” does that? The end of those statements are usually pretty dire.

Was He really saying, “No, not really, just be a good old chap, will you?”

Also, when Christ begins a sentence with “Amen, Amen, I say to you…”, I start taking notes.

Notworthy

 

[ReformedCatholic]

I’m not sure how His words would read in the original Aramaic, but to me the message is clear. Love God above all else, and love one another as I have loved you…

If you do these two things, everything else takes care of itself.

The concept of UNCONDITIONAL love, is that it is indeed unconditional, and that you do not have to “do” anything to gain it. This is the type of love I believe Christ has for mankind.

 

[hurst]

ReformedCatholic:

Doesn’t this suggest that the Pope has the authority to “save” or “condemn” folks, which I thought was the job solely reserved for God?

He was given the keys to the Kingdom. He can bind or loose, and it will be done in heaven.

ReformedCatholic:

This particular declaration seems to be a bit self-serving and dare I say, egotistical.

Be careful. Christ said some things that offended the Pharisees in like manner. “How can He say God is His Father?” etc.

The Pope acts in the person of Christ in a special way, particularly during solemn actions. Every priest does likewise at certain times involving the Sacraments they are given to minister.

ReformedCatholic:

It may have been issued to reaffirm the Pope’s power in the political circumstances of the time. It would be interesting to know more about the historical context.

I don’t think it really could have been merely political. The Pope only had direct control of a certain number of lands at any given time. Even though he is the supreme power on earth, it is primarily a spiritual power he exercises, as I think should be obvious from the circumstances.

ReformedCatholic:

My thinking is that Christ loves everyone unconditionally and that he offers His Salvation unconditionally.

We are only allowed to love God unconditionally. We love our neighbor conditionally, that is, under the condition we don’t sin against God in doing so. We must love others as Christ loved us. That is His new commandment.

ReformedCatholic:

He did what He did for all of mankind, not just Christians. I think that He welcomes everyone with open arms, even those that may worship God through the venues of different religions, unless they actively reject Him or do evil, which would be a form of actively rejecting Him.

He paid for all of us regardless of our sins, yes. Yes, He welcomes all. But we are all called to do penance in order to come to Him.

Acts 17:30 And God indeed having winked at the times of this ignorance, now declareth unto men, that all should every where do penance.

And if anyone is not appropriately “clothed”, they will be rejected

Matthew 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways; and as many as you shall find, call to the marriage. 10 And his servants going forth into the ways, gathered together all that they found, both bad and good: and the marriage was filled with guests. 11 And the king went in to see the guests: and he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment. 12 And he saith to him: Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? But he was silent. 13 Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Apocalypse 3:16 But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold fire tried, that thou mayest be made rich; and mayest be clothed in white garments, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear; and anoint thy eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance.

So while God receives us, we have to take part in His life, and learn obedience through suffering and discipline. Obedience is the key to heaven. The Pope holds this key.

hurst

 

[ReformedCatholic]

If the sins have been “paid for” then why is penance or suffering necessary? This has always confused me.

 

[mike182d]

ReformedCatholic:

If the sins have been “paid for” then why is penance or suffering necessary? This has always confused me.

If the sins have been “paid for” why does Jesus give the Apostles the power to “retain” people’s sins? How can you hold the sins against someone when they’ve already been paid for?

 

[CollegeKid]

hurst:

Simple. The Pope offers prayers for their salvation, and/or directs the Church to pray for them. They would not be saved if the Pope barred them from the benefit of its graces. And if they rejected what the Church offered, then they cannot be saved.

hurst

This was the only response that even came close to answering my question. Hurst, the following statement is more directed to the other posters: I’m not talking so much about protestants or other christians who are aware of the claims of the Church, including the belief that the Pope is its God-ordained earthly head, but more about those who never hear the gospel, like indian tribesmen in the Amazon rainforest, for example.

In Unam Sanctam we have the Pope saying that “**absolutely every human creature ** must be subject to the Roman Pontiff” to be saved. I don’t see how being prayed for by the Pope and Church makes one subject to them. Generally, to be subject to another person and/or institution/kingdom, etc., one has to consciously acknowledge the authority he is subjecting himself to.

 

[hurst]

ReformedCatholic:

I’m not sure how His words would read in the original Aramaic, but to me the message is clear. Love God above all else, and love one another as I have loved you…

Yes!

ReformedCatholic:

The concept of UNCONDITIONAL love, is that it is indeed unconditional, and that you do not have to “do” anything to gain it.

That is not what you really mean to say, is it? God loves those in hell, but that does not deliver them from its torments, which is their own fault for what they did not “do”?!

ReformedCatholic:

This is the type of love I believe Christ has for mankind.

I will show you one of many reasons why your belief to love the creature unconditionally is not well founded. Christ knew what was in man and did not trust himself to them:

John 2:24 But Jesus did not trust himself unto them, for that he knew all men, 25 And because he needed not that any should give testimony of man: for he knew what was in man.

We should rather trust in God

Ecclesiasticus 11:22 Abide not in the works of sinners. But trust in God, and stay in thy place.

Is it unconditional love to not trust yourself to the one you are loving? No.

On the other hand, we are called to give unreciprocated love:

Luke 6:32 And if you love them that love you, what thanks are to you? for sinners also love those that love them. … 35 But love ye your enemies: do good, and lend, hoping for nothing thereby: and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the sons of the Highest; for he is kind to the unthankful, and to the evil.

What Jesus did for us was done out of obedience to His Father, and not dependent upon whether we reciprocated that love. But we do not benefit from it if we do not reciprocate His love and obey Him in good faith. The Father’s condition for us to see Him is to come to Him by means of His Son. Those who are not baptized into His death cannot enter the Kingdom. Those who refuse to obey God, obey His Son, or obey His Church will not enter the Kingdom, for obedience is the key to the Kingdom.

I hope this clarifies things.

hurst

 

[solarwind23]

CollegeKid:

This was the only response that even came close to answering my question. Hurst, the following statement is more directed to the other posters: I’m not talking so much about protestants or other christians who are aware of the claims of the Church, including the belief that the Pope is its God-ordained earthly head, but more about those who never hear the gospel, like indian tribesmen in the Amazon rainforest, for example.

In Unam Sanctam we have the Pope saying that “**absolutely every human creature ** must be subject to the Roman Pontiff” to be saved. I don’t see how being prayed for by the Pope and Church makes one subject to them. Generally, to be subject to another person and/or institution/kingdom, etc., one has to consciously acknowledge the authority he is subjecting himself to.

Didn’t they also used to say that you had to be a part of the Catholic Church to be saved?

Maybe there is a different way of interpreting subjection to the Roman Pontiff just as there is a different way of interpreting what being a part of the Church is.

 

[hurst]

CollegeKid:

Generally, to be subject to another person and/or institution/kingdom, etc., one has to consciously acknowledge the authority he is subjecting himself to.

Generally. But a baby is baptized and saved without being conscious of an authority. Yet, it is baptized via the authority. In the same manner, someone can be under the guardianship of another without full awareness.

Perhaps you will ask how they can obey the ruler of that Kingdom? That is where conscience comes into play. When we pray for such remote people, one way God helps them is by awaking their conscience to right and wrong. If someone refuses to follow their conscience, then they have rejected a grace preparing them for salvation.

hurst

 

[hurst]

ReformedCatholic:

If the sins have been “paid for” then why is penance or suffering necessary? This has always confused me.

Look at it this way: Christ suffered and was pierced that we might have the life in His blood. We must also be pierced to receive the transfusion. Our life-blood must give way to His.

hurst

 

[CollegeKid]

hurst:

Generally. But a baby is baptized and saved without being conscious of an authority. Yet, it is baptized via the authority. In the same manner, someone can be under the guardianship of another without full awareness.

Good point.

hurst:

Perhaps you will ask how they can obey the ruler of that Kingdom? That is where conscience comes into play. When we pray for such remote people, one way God helps them is by awaking their conscience to right and wrong. If someone refuses to follow their conscience, then they have rejected a grace preparing them for salvation.

Yes, but people had consciences before Christ was born, before the birth of the Catholic Church.

 

[hurst]

CollegeKid:

Yes, but people had consciences before Christ was born, before the birth of the Catholic Church.

God allowed people to be ignorant before Christ was born, but now calls all to do penance.

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one, all mankind, to dwell upon the whole face of the earth, determining appointed times, and the limits of their habitation. 27 That they should seek God, if happily they may feel after him or find him, although he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and are; as some also of your own poets said: For we are also his offspring. 29 Being therefore the offspring of God, we must not suppose the divinity to be like unto gold, or silver, or stone, the graving of art, and device of man. 30 And God indeed having winked at the times of this ignorance, now declareth unto men, that all should every where do penance. 31 Because he hath appointed a day wherein he will judge the world in equity, by the man whom he hath appointed; giving faith to all, by raising him up from the dead.

Mark 1:14 And after that John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying: The time is accomplished, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe the gospel.

This is further underscored by the fact that Christ went to the spirits of those who died in Noah’s Flood and preached to them in their prison:

1 Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

hurst

 

[CollegeKid]

Let me see if I’m understanding you:

if you’re invincibly ignorant, then following your conscience = being subject to the Roman Pontiff?

 

[NotWorthy]

Why is this so hard to understand? Christ gave Peter the power to “bind and loose” on earth and in heaven.

If Pope Benedict XVI says to “Jump, in order for your salvation”, then I say, “How high”!!!

Notworthy

 

[CollegeKid]

NotWorthy:

Why is this so hard to understand? Christ gave Peter the power to “bind and loose” on earth and in heaven.

If Pope Benedict XVI says to “Jump, in order for your salvation”, then I say, “How high”!!!

Notworthy

I agree, but we’re both speaking as people in full communion with the Church. Obeying the Pope isn’t a problem for us. But I was confused by the part of Unam Sanctam that stated “absolutely every human creature” must be subject to the Roman Pontiff for salvation. To me it looked like the Pope was rejecting our understanding of No Salvation Outside the Church, because we hold that some can be saved even if they don’t join the fold in their lifetime. It looked as if Boniface VIII was saying, “No one who doesn’t come into the Church during their lifetime, no matter how ignorant of it they are, can enter into Heaven.”