Abstenance and Suffering

[YipYupYep]

The only conclusion I can draw from this rambling post is that you have failed to follow the argument I made. I surmise from that conclusion that your lack of coherence is purposefully self-inflicted to avoid the conclusion that everyone is responsible for their own sexuality.

I have read all the posts on this thread with interest. Im sorry but your conclusion to way out in left field. No one said anything about an excuse from sexual responsibility.

Chastity is not abnormal.
1a. Because chastity is not abnormal, it does not necessarily involve continuous suffering.

Whats this about normal or abnormal? The Op and posters are taking about there suffering.

1. To propose that chastity is abnormal is offensive to the Catholic faith, because that proposition undermines the value placed NOT ONLY on celibate lifestyles BUT ALSO on the limitations placed on sexuality within marriage.

I find quoting Gloria Stenem as some sort of authority on anything at all offensive here at a Catholic web site. And the Buddhists and Hindus. Whats up with that?

I think that Ish has mocked you and that was unkind but I see his/her point as clear as a bell. Your position is subjective. Thats your stuff. Please dont include the rest of us because its not true and wont fly.

What do you think?

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I find quoting Gloria Stenem as some sort of authority on anything at all offensive here at a Catholic web site. And the Buddhists and Hindus. Whats up with that?

Even non-Christians can be celibate without suffering. That’s offensive? Only if you completely twist the statement.

It’s fine to mock celibacy, huh. Seems to me that’s more like your “subjective stuff”, not mine.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I have read all the posts on this thread with interest. Im sorry but your conclusion to way out in left field. No one said anything about an excuse from sexual responsibility.

If you persist in the idea that celibacy involves continuous suffering, and therefore is something that is “heroic”, and not normal, then what do you have but an excuse for yourself? This is someone saying, "ok, I’ve suffered for 5 hours. That’s all God expects of me, now I will go look at pornography.

Whats this about normal or abnormal? The Op and posters are taking about there suffering.

I am really confused why this is so hard for you to grasp. IF celibacy is normal, then HOW does it involve a continuous state of suffering? St. Paul says it is BETTER to be unmarried and like him than to marry, but marriage is allowed if a person cannot control their lusts. Is St. Paul saying it is better for those people to persist in suffering? No, he is saying it is better if they experience celibacy as normal and do not battle lust.

Galatians 5:19-21, “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, … : of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

 

[YipYupYep]

Will sombody help me here!!!

 

[Angels_Unaware]

You already know the answer. Do you feel good or bad when your not getting any. Sure its suffering. You bet. What stronger feeling of physical pleasure is there, and your not getting yours. Thats suffering okay.

For the celibate, its a heavy cross, probably all the time, stretching and growing the person in there spirit. A hammer and anvil shaping the person. In my own life, as a single man, my sexuality is “the” cross of my life. As for myself, I don’t expect to receive any special blessings for not sinning, but I hope to anyway.

Welcome to the battlefield.

Help you out?

How? This is what you said. You know, I am sorry for you. You are brave to admit your problem and you have quite a bit of integrity to at least try to be chaste. But you are willfully refusing to accept the fact that not everyone has your problem. It is not true that chastity is, as you say, “a constant heavy cross”. No, it isn’t, I’m sorry. Perhaps it is for a person who constantly goes back and forth between indulgence and chastity. (That behavior- gonig back and forth- is how people develop addictions.)

I am not saying that it is not normal to long for wife, or to face temptation, but our society has greatly over-emphasized the “need for sex” and like the other poster, flat-out ridiculed those who can easily manage to abstain from lust.

The answer to the problem of lust is to take responsibility for not feeding it with any thoughts, actions, or temptations and to do as St. Paul commands you and to look for a wife.

 

[YipYupYep]

But you are willfully refusing to accept the fact that not everyone has your problem…

I never said everyone. Most. That are healthy and normal. Sure, saints, change of lifers and angels from heaven, excepted. Sure, there are those cases, where sexual overdrive is just not there. But not the rank and file.

It is not true that chastity is, as you say, “a constant heavy cross”. No, it isn’t, I’m sorry. Perhaps it is for a person who constantly goes back and forth between indulgence and chastity. (That behavior- going back and forth- is how people develop addictions.)

Obviously, its wrong to go back and forth. Try to use different words and see if it does not change. One would resolve to never drop there cross again and after a time, on thing leads to another and the person falls. They get back up, dust them selves off, put there shoulders back and get back in the fight. No cross no glory.

but our society has greatly over-emphasized the “need for sex” and like the other poster, flat-out ridiculed those who can easily manage to abstain from lust.

Easily? Read these posts about sexual battle. Its real life. The ridicule was, as I see it, your own enforcement of your condition as the norm. When it is not. I’m sorry, but I read a holly er than thou deal. Come on, have a heart, the ordinary Tom, **** and Harry are not made of stone.

The answer to the problem of lust is to take responsibility for not feeding it with any thoughts, actions, or temptations and to do as St. Paul commands you and to look for a wife.

That’s too simple to just say a thing like that. The brain chemistry of the human person. The hormonal assault of the ordinary celibate is a battle field.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

My condition as a person who was chaste until marriage without constantly suffering because of my attachment to lust is NORMAL.

For you to insist otherwise is to undermine the teachings of the Church, and that is a problem that you need to address.

He is who is not with me is against me.

Sorry, buddy.

Good luck to you.

That’s too simple to just say a thing like that. The brain chemistry of the human person. The hormonal assault of the ordinary celibate is a battle field

Hmm. The Bible is just too simple. Only simple people agree with St. Paul on sexuality. Funny that the actual celibates don’t decribe their lives as battelfields.

You know, it makes me wonder WHY you don’t just simply marry, as you obviously have natural desires that are to be used to honor God in marriage and to produce children. I wonder… is it because you know that marriage won’t solve your problem? Because you know that a person who is a slave to lust will continue to be tempted even after marriage to adultery?

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Afterthought…

The #1 reason that people reject Jesus Christ and His Church is their refusal to accept the Church’s very clear teachings on sexual purity. You can make all the excuses for yourself in the world, and convince yourself that “everybody” is a slave to impurity, and that if they aren’t, they are “sick” or “holier than thou” or “lying”.

The real liar is Satan who tells you that your hormones excuse you from living in obedience and abstaining from mental impurity, and quickly confessing any and all impurity. If you are not using the sacraments in an honest battle to be pure, then you have no excuse.

It is one thing to battle tempation, it is another to give yourself up to temptation because you believe a lie. And your beliefs about sexual purity and how everybody feels when they are (in your words) “not getting any” are lies.

 

[YipYupYep]

My condition as a person who was chaste until marriage without constantly suffering because of my attachment to lust is NORMAL.

Married? Oh I see.

Its easy to sat these things when your in the rear with the gear while the troops in the front line are facing the fire.

 

[YipYupYep]

You can make all the excuses for yourself in the world, and convince yourself that “everybody” is a slave to impurity,

Where are you getting this stuff. From another thread? Not here.

Anyway. You are living the vocation of a married person. What do you know about it?

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Married? Oh I see.

Its easy to sat these things when your in the rear with the gear while the troops in the front line are facing the fire.

I spent 4 years in total purity after giving birth to my child out of wedlock.

A conception that occurred not because of lust, but because of desire for love.

The word of God tells us that we must “crucify the flesh with its passions.”

You have no excuse.

 

[YipYupYep]

You have no excuse.

What in Gods Holy Name have I written here to receive Judgment after Judgment. Where have I said or insinuated that I condone or excuse surrender in the battle?

Do you have a crossed wire to another thread?

 

[GreyRabbit]

Alright you two, enough! Please! We are supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ! A fine example you are showing to young people who are searching for answers, and for those who are looking in how to defend their faith and beliefs!

I’m not trying to add fuel to the fire here. Look, some people are not able to handle their lust, and for them, it is a suffering. But this is only to bring them closer to God, ~if~ they give that suffering to Him and turn to Him for help.
Other people do not have this suffering, because they are given something else for which they turn to God for.
God gives things to us that He knows we can handle, so long as we combine our suffering to Him.

So please, stop being rude to each other! Jesus was asked how many times we are to forgive our brother, and the reply was, if you take what he really meant and not the literal reply, was to keep forgiving!

We are not our own army, we are soldiers of Christ, our general. Please don’t pit yourselves, His own men and women (forgive me if I don’t know whether you are male or female) against each other.

There is nothing wrong with admiring other faiths for their integrity and their strength, that just means we ought to be all the more stronger in our own, and show that we Christians are that too, and all the more so because we are the “holy Catholic church”. :knight2:

Okay? So please, just walk away from this if nothing else, and don’t let the enemy win by leaving you with bitterness in your hearts.



~Sister in Christ,
Grey

 

[Fran65]

I Sure, saints, change of lifers and angels from heaven, excepted.

Wow. I’ve never been called a saint or an angel before and I’m very definately not a change of lifer either!

First few years - difficult. You betcha. Rebellion, tears, grief, all sorts of sinful thoughts and plans. Turned it all over to God and here I am 8 years later, still married and celibate and actually the better for it. I hadn’t realised that would make me a candidate for sainthood; but hey; its nice to get some recognition.

God Bless.

 

[YipYupYep]

Alright you two, enough! Please! We are supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ! A fine example you are showing to young people who are searching for answers, and for those who are looking in how to defend their faith and beliefs!

So, what then? Should I find a place where everyone agrees with me?

Look, some people are not able to handle their lust, and for them, it is a suffering.

That’s all I was writing.

Other people do not have this suffering, because they are given something else for which they turn to God for.

Yes, that’s well said. May I know If you are a Lay person or a Person Religious? Just curious?

 

[YipYupYep]

I am 8 years later, still married and celibate and actually the better for it. I hadn’t realized that would make me a candidate for sainthood; but hey; its nice to get some recognition.

God Bless.

Hello little saint,

Married and celibate? I thought there was some sort of ruling against that. Guess not. No prob, that’s cool. ( puzzled look )

May I know if there are any children?

So, if your celibate, your husband must be; right? Sounds complicated.

If this is some personal thing, you should not answer, but whats up with this? Why would you do this if your vocation is to be joined with your husband in Holy Matrimony?
( I got a lot to learn )

YYY

 

[GreyRabbit]

So, what then? Should I find a place where everyone agrees with me?

That’s all I was writing.

Yes, that’s well said. May I know If you are a Lay person or a Person Religious? Just curious?

If you don’t find people who agree with you, then it’s best to acknowledge that you don’t agree and just move on, rather than battling it out and harboring negative feelings. =) The important thing that we all have to remember, is even though we may get mad, to keep our temper. Often times we forget to still be courteous in our anonymity–since we have screen names. =D

Ah…and I am but a lay person. ^^;;

Cheers,
Grey

 

[Fran65]

Hi Yip,

No ruling against it in our circumstances. I have a life threatening heart condition - because of the risks we live as we do - it is a choice. We could go ahead, but for us, we’d rather not. Its called sacrifice and is based on love. And yes, we have a son.

That does not mean that I (I only speak for myself!) don’t have a normal desire for intimacy, but it has actually got much, much easier - through God’s grace.

As a psychologist, I can say that exposure to sexual material and engaging in sex increases sexual desire. It is straightforward -keep engaging in looking, thinking and doing and the desires grow. The opposite also happens. It just takes a lot of discipline - as I said I didn’t think it made you a saint, but in certain circumstances it is desirable and beneficial to be celibate and not impossible!

God Bless

 

[YipYupYep]

I have a life threatening heart condition - because of the risks we live as we do - it is a choice. We could go ahead, but for us, we’d rather not. Its called sacrifice and is based on love. And yes, we have a son.

Well, all is well that ends well. Now, the possibility of instant, agonizing death is sort of a pretty big motivation, however, I still you you the gold star.

As a psychologist, I can say that exposure to sexual material and engaging in sex increases sexual desire. It is straightforward -keep engaging in looking, thinking and doing and the desires grow.

Doc, I got a lot of problems… let me tell ya. But I understand what you mean. "Of the two wolves that fight each other, the one that wins the battle on the inside, is the wolf you feed.

YYY