Abstinence from carnal relations for former anglican clerics

[Chris_McAvoy]

Grace and peace from our Lord,

I note that I mention Eastern Christianity to serve as an illustration, not to proclaim as superior, but to serve as an example where I find a living tradition which may serve as a feasiable blueprint with which to reinvigorate that which is currently dormant within Latinity Christianity.

Within Eastern Christianity, both schismatic and non-schismatic there exists an unbroken tradition of the fast , abstention and alms giving. The most well known period for this occurs before the Lord’s Resurrection Day, but there are numerous others periods.

In seeking to live a more faithful Orthodox historically accurate model of ancient Latin Christianity which is harmonious with that of Eastern Christianity. Through the analysis of them both I stumble upon many inconsistencies which exist today that did not exist in the past. Where in the past there was a more frequent tendency to serve to unite in harmony over the centuries tendencies of divergence developed to serve to divide in dichotomy. Practices once agreed upon throughout all of the Ecumene or Christian lands and empires now exist in only bits and pieces in one cultural Church or another.

Recently, one particular example strikes me as a profoundly difficult difference which it seems to me to be necessary to seek a resolution for with all ones abilities and prayerful advocation from God.

I bring to your attention that most of the people of the Latin Church in the present time do not follow the advice written in her venerable ancient penitential books. It extends to food and other matters but in particular, most married couples are not foregoing carnal relations during the three Lents each year (St Martins/Advent/40 days before Pasche and 40 days after Pentecost/Whitsun) much less during the periods before Sunday/Festal communion.

Why I am most concerned is that soon these same problems shall be extended to the married priests in the Anglican-use ordinariate who have an even more serious obligation to follow such canons. You can see here why this is:

If priests of the Old Covenant abstained from sex before exercising cultic functions at specific times and places, then the same rule should apply to the priest of the New Covenant, but now in a continuous way. Therefore priests should keep perpetual continence.

Further, Siricius in an epistle to Bishop Himerius of Tarragonia, wrote that God is pleased only by sacrifices offerred by ministers with ritually pure bodies. The services of an impure priest are not as efficacious as those of one who is truly continent.

We offer up our hearts as well as our bodies in sobriety and chastity so that in all things our daily offeringa and sacrifices may be pleasing to God.

Pope Innocent I (circa 400) reiterated that clerics were to have no sex at all because they must always be ready to administer the sacraments. The argument for clerical celibacy because of the need for ritual purity persisted through the time of the Eleventh Century (“Gregorian”) reforms. Peter Damian in his Epistle 61 urges Pope Nicholas II to take strong action against wayward bishops. Rhetorically, Damian demands of such bishops,

What business have you to handle the body of Christ, when by wallowing in the allurements of the flesh you have become a member of the anti-christ?…Are you unaware that the Son of God was so dedicated to the purity of flesh that he was not born of conjugal chastity, but rather from the womb of a virgin? And if that were not enough, that only a virgin should be his mother, it is the belief of the Church that his foster father was also a virgin… by whom, I ask, does he now wish his body to be handled as he reigns supremely in heaven? If he wished to be fondled by hands that were unsullied as he lay in the crib, with what purity does he now wish to surround his body as he reigns on high in the glory of the Father’s majesty?

Only one canon lawyer has so far raised the serious consequences of this matter: canonlaw.info/a_deacons.htm

The following three links provide some basic analysis of the matter, one from a more secular/historical view the other from a more faith-filled personal experiential matter:

books.google.com/books?id=SiGe-Zf0nTIC&pg=PA158&dq=abstention+relations+lent&hl=en&ei=wqgnTqr0BIrUgAffndRc&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Law, sex, and Christian society in medieval Europe
By James A. Brundage

monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?2896-Sexual-relations-during-fasting/page4

patheos.com/community/deaconsbench/2011/01/20/deacons-and-sex-the-four-options/

I quote:

The real shocker is that lay people are also traditionally called (whether as a matter of law I do not think so) to periodic continence, especially during fasting periods or specific days of fasting and abstinence and even prior to receiving the Eucharist. This option would be more of a repudiation of traditional Christian praxis!

Option 3: “Canon law requires priests (and perhaps deacons, mutatis mutandis) to observe only periodic or temporary continence in regard to the celebration of the Eucharist.”

This is an incomplete option since it should make mention of these fasting/abstinence periods and days in the Church as well.

Is there any advice regarding this matter?

How ought I go about attempting to spread the word that, we, as Latin christians ought to revive our christian customs as once practiced toward abstaining from our passions during much of the year. Especially abstention for us all before receiving the Eucharist, and especially for those serving as clerics who are married men, that they MUST abide at least in temporary periodic continence, if not perpetual.

the humble servant of God,

Christopher

 

[JReducation]

Grace and peace from our Lord,

I note that I mention Eastern Christianity to serve as an illustration, not to proclaim as superior, but to serve as an example where I find a living tradition which may serve as a feasiable blueprint with which to reinvigorate that which is currently dormant within Latinity Christianity.

Within Eastern Christianity, both schismatic and non-schismatic there exists an unbroken tradition of the fast , abstention and alms giving. The most well known period for this occurs before the Lord’s Resurrection Day, but there are numerous others periods.

In seeking to live a more faithful Orthodox historically accurate model of ancient Latin Christianity which is harmonious with that of Eastern Christianity. Through the analysis of them both I stumble upon many inconsistencies which exist today that did not exist in the past. Where in the past there was a more frequent tendency to serve to unite in harmony over the centuries tendencies of divergence developed to serve to divide in dichotomy. Practices once agreed upon throughout all of the Ecumene or Christian lands and empires now exist in only bits and pieces in one cultural Church or another.

Recently, one particular example strikes me as a profoundly difficult difference which it seems to me to be necessary to seek a resolution for with all ones abilities and prayerful advocation from God.

I bring to your attention that most of the people of the Latin Church in the present time do not follow the advice written in her venerable ancient penitential books. It extends to food and other matters but in particular, most married couples are not foregoing carnal relations during the three Lents each year (St Martins/Advent/40 days before Pasche and 40 days after Pentecost/Whitsun) much less during the periods before Sunday/Festal communion.

Why I am most concerned is that soon these same problems shall be extended to the married priests in the Anglican-use ordinariate who have an even more serious obligation to follow such canons. You can see here why this is:

Only one canon lawyer has so far raised the serious consequences of this matter: canonlaw.info/a_deacons.htm

The following three links provide some basic analysis of the matter, one from a more secular/historical view the other from a more faith-filled personal experiential matter:

books.google.com/books?id=SiGe-Zf0nTIC&pg=PA158&dq=abstention+relations+lent&hl=en&ei=wqgnTqr0BIrUgAffndRc&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Law, sex, and Christian society in medieval Europe
By James A. Brundage

monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?2896-Sexual-relations-during-fasting/page4

patheos.com/community/deaconsbench/2011/01/20/deacons-and-sex-the-four-options/

I quote:

Is there any advice regarding this matter?

How ought I go about attempting to spread the word that, we, as Latin christians ought to revive our christian customs as once practiced toward abstaining from our passions during much of the year. Especially abstention for us all before receiving the Eucharist, and especially for those serving as clerics who are married men, that they MUST abide at least in temporary periodic continence, if not perpetual.

the humble servant of God,

Christopher

This is a disciplilne, not a dogma. The pope can change the discipline at his discretion. The discipline of celibacy is only applicable to those men who have made a promise of celibacy. Therefore, the canon does not apply to married men who are ordaiend in the Latin Church. This particular canon does not exist in the Code of Canon Law for the Oriental Churches. They have their own code of law.

In addition, the early Fathers are speaking about acts against purity. They lived during a time when the marital act was often treated without any concern for its sacramental meaning. Bl. John Paul tried to set this straight in Theology of the Body. A married priest should know the difference between the sacramental act between husband and wife and the use of the spouse as an object to satisfy his or her lust.

This rule applies to all people of faith. But one does not have to abstain from sexual intercourse with one’s spouse to receive Holy Communion worthilly. One has to refrain from anything that is impure. There is a difference.

Finally, a married person must never forget justice. Spouses have a moral obligation to make themselves available to each other as Christ makes himself available to his Church and the Church to him. Christ and the Church do not abstain from intimacy with each other.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[NguyenKimPhat]

Br. JR - you provide some of the coolest answers. I am so thankful for your insight into this forum. You provide clear, precise answers.

I was just wondering, I know that this is off topic, but … if I am allowed to ask… what is the difference between a brother and a priest? Can a brother still celebrate mass or is he only allowed to live in the religious community?

 

[DaveBj]

Jumping the gun on Br JR here, but from my contacts with the local Benedictine monastery, my understanding is that within the community of the monastery, all priests are brothers, but not all brothers are priests. I could be wrong.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Grace and peace from our Lord,

I note that I mention Eastern Christianity to serve as an illustration, not to proclaim as superior, but to serve as an example where I find a living tradition which may serve as a feasiable blueprint with which to reinvigorate that which is currently dormant within Latinity Christianity.

Within Eastern Christianity, both schismatic and non-schismatic there exists an unbroken tradition of the fast , abstention and alms giving. The most well known period for this occurs before the Lord’s Resurrection Day, but there are numerous others periods.

In seeking to live a more faithful Orthodox historically accurate model of ancient Latin Christianity which is harmonious with that of Eastern Christianity. Through the analysis of them both I stumble upon many inconsistencies which exist today that did not exist in the past. Where in the past there was a more frequent tendency to serve to unite in harmony over the centuries tendencies of divergence developed to serve to divide in dichotomy. Practices once agreed upon throughout all of the Ecumene or Christian lands and empires now exist in only bits and pieces in one cultural Church or another.

Recently, one particular example strikes me as a profoundly difficult difference which it seems to me to be necessary to seek a resolution for with all ones abilities and prayerful advocation from God.

I bring to your attention that most of the people of the Latin Church in the present time do not follow the advice written in her venerable ancient penitential books. It extends to food and other matters but in particular, most married couples are not foregoing carnal relations during the three Lents each year (St Martins/Advent/40 days before Pasche and 40 days after Pentecost/Whitsun) much less during the periods before Sunday/Festal communion.

Why I am most concerned is that soon these same problems shall be extended to the married priests in the Anglican-use ordinariate who have an even more serious obligation to follow such canons. You can see here why this is:

Only one canon lawyer has so far raised the serious consequences of this matter: canonlaw.info/a_deacons.htm

The following three links provide some basic analysis of the matter, one from a more secular/historical view the other from a more faith-filled personal experiential matter:

books.google.com/books?id=SiGe-Zf0nTIC&pg=PA158&dq=abstention+relations+lent&hl=en&ei=wqgnTqr0BIrUgAffndRc&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Law, sex, and Christian society in medieval Europe
By James A. Brundage

monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?2896-Sexual-relations-during-fasting/page4

patheos.com/community/deaconsbench/2011/01/20/deacons-and-sex-the-four-options/

I quote:

Is there any advice regarding this matter?

How ought I go about attempting to spread the word that, we, as Latin christians ought to revive our christian customs as once practiced toward abstaining from our passions during much of the year. Especially abstention for us all before receiving the Eucharist, and especially for those serving as clerics who are married men, that they MUST abide at least in temporary periodic continence, if not perpetual.

the humble servant of God,

Christopher

The Roman Catholic Church has Always maintained the ancient teachings and practiced norms of Fasting, Abstinence, avoiding sex before marriage; they in fact are Canon Law. The problem is not always Practiced everywhere, resulting from the confusion, espescially ther Media hype after Vatican II: weakened teaching and sometimes practise. The 2 Popes since Vatican II have Focused attention of Maintining Tradition: The Pope Always and Only give Communion On the Tongue, Kneeling. Fasting before Communion is still ‘required’, as is Confession directly to a Priest of Mortal (Serious) Sin. Not eating meat on Friday has been The Norm since literally the Very begining Church of the Apotles.

1. 
   
   1. • The very centerpiece of The Church has been what our Lord asked done in His Remembrand at the Last Supper: (a) The Last Supper Feast (Sadar Feast He did) Only by the Apostles, then Priests Only, they Ordained in the rapidly expanding Church and (b) “blessing” Consecration of unleavened Bread/Wine into His Real Presence. There have been Innumerable Eucharistic Miracles, Proven, unpreserved, still heart Muscle from a dropped Eucharist by a doubting central European Priest in the 700’s, in Central Italy.
      ] LIST=1 22 Eastern sect Orthodox Churches have stayed or reunited with the Vatican: the Still seperate Russian and Greek Orthododox Churches are Very Close to Full Communion Also, with the Vatican after the Ravenna Conference On Reunion a couple Years ago. I Attended trhe Full Report on Ravenna By the 2 Principal Negotiators at Catholic University. Full Communion is Very Close.
      

                                                                                                                               [LIST=1]   (2)

      • The differences in Orthodox and Roman Church, Both Full Apostolic Powers Should be considered because we All will be The One Church soon.
        (a)

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Grace and peace from our Lord,

I note that I mention Eastern Christianity to serve as an illustration, not to proclaim as superior, but to serve as an example where I find a living tradition which may serve as a feasiable blueprint with which to reinvigorate that which is currently dormant within Latinity Christianity.

Within Eastern Christianity, both schismatic and non-schismatic there exists an unbroken tradition of the fast , abstention and alms giving. The most well known period for this occurs before the Lord’s Resurrection Day, but there are numerous others periods.

In seeking to live a more faithful Orthodox historically accurate model of ancient Latin Christianity which is harmonious with that of Eastern Christianity. Through the analysis of them both I stumble upon many inconsistencies which exist today that did not exist in the past. Where in the past there was a more frequent tendency to serve to unite in harmony over the centuries tendencies of divergence developed to serve to divide in dichotomy. Practices once agreed upon throughout all of the Ecumene or Christian lands and empires now exist in only bits and pieces in one cultural Church or another.

Recently, one particular example strikes me as a profoundly difficult difference which it seems to me to be necessary to seek a resolution for with all ones abilities and prayerful advocation from God.

I bring to your attention that most of the people of the Latin Church in the present time do not follow the advice written in her venerable ancient penitential books. It extends to food and other matters but in particular, most married couples are not foregoing carnal relations during the three Lents each year (St Martins/Advent/40 days before Pasche and 40 days after Pentecost/Whitsun) much less during the periods before Sunday/Festal communion.

Why I am most concerned is that soon these same problems shall be extended to the married priests in the Anglican-use ordinariate who have an even more serious obligation to follow such canons. You can see here why this is:

Only one canon lawyer has so far raised the serious consequences of this matter: canonlaw.info/a_deacons.htm

The following three links provide some basic analysis of the matter, one from a more secular/historical view the other from a more faith-filled personal experiential matter:

books.google.com/books?id=SiGe-Zf0nTIC&pg=PA158&dq=abstention+relations+lent&hl=en&ei=wqgnTqr0BIrUgAffndRc&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Law, sex, and Christian society in medieval Europe
By James A. Brundage

monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?2896-Sexual-relations-during-fasting/page4

patheos.com/community/deaconsbench/2011/01/20/deacons-and-sex-the-four-options/

I quote:

Is there any advice regarding this matter?

How ought I go about attempting to spread the word that, we, as Latin christians ought to revive our christian customs as once practiced toward abstaining from our passions during much of the year. Especially abstention for us all before receiving the Eucharist, and especially for those serving as clerics who are married men, that they MUST abide at least in temporary periodic continence, if not perpetual.

the humble servant of God,

Christopher

Greetings in God. Orthodox and Roman are each Fully the Church Christ began, as he began and full living Bible.

• There are several misunderstandings: (1) Only the Roman Church Has Maintained All Tradition, Teachings of the 1st Century Church, (Fasting/Abstinence are Still Canon Law, but sometimes not prctised by some not Knowing (2) The “Orthodox” and Roman Church aer Very Close to Full Communion, with the Vatican/Magesterium as 22 “Eastern”/“Byzantine” Orthodox Churches are (I attended the Ravenna Conference reoprt By the Principal Negotiators at Catholic University a couple of years ago.) (3) The Differences in Orthodox and Roman Need consideration: Once a week or twice Divine Liturgy or Evening Vespers Saturday vs Daily Mass/Eucharist in Roman; far greater Evangelization by Roman; No Eucharistic Adoration by Orthodox; Great evangelization in Roman by the Legion Of Mary 2 Million secular members in every part of the worls, etc., etc. I’ll present additional comparisons as time permits. I’ve been Involved, Attended Orthodox events also; they worry about losing members, not growing, and the benefits of the Roman. Vivat Jesu. :byzsoc: Please see ***Roman Catholic Practise ***Visually on worldwide/All Media [SIGN] EWTN[/SIGN]. Please note the Daily Mass 4 times shown daily; and the numerous components, as on CAF. God Bless you for your important points! Glory to God, Live in Jesus.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Br. JR - you provide some of the coolest answers. I am so thankful for your insight into this forum. You provide clear, precise answers.

I was just wondering, I know that this is off topic, but … if I am allowed to ask… what is the difference between a brother and a priest? Can a brother still celebrate mass or is he only allowed to live in the religious community?

Welcome, Nguyen! We can ask Any Question here, and luckily do, A Priest has the Full Apostolic Powers of The Apostles Our Lord gave them to. Only Priests can Say Mass, Consecrate the Eucharist; technically Only Christ does, through the Priest as His earthly instrument. Brothers, Sisters are Full Clergy, but no Apostolic powers, douing Critical Teaching, Praying work. :nun2:

 

[ConstantineTG]

The rule in the Byzantine Rite is the priest cannot have sex the night before Divine Liturgy, from Vespers until the end of Divine Liturgy. He also abstains from food in the same time, so it goes hand in hand as a fast. A priest would fast from sex the same way he would fast from food. Sex is not seen as something dirty in the East. Actually, sex is not dirty at all. Its a gift from God, its how we reproduce in the first place. Maybe read up on Blessed John Paul II’s Theology of the Body.

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

This is a disciplilne, not a dogma. The pope can change the discipline at his discretion. The discipline of celibacy is only applicable to those men who have made a promise of celibacy. Therefore, the canon does not apply to married men who are ordaiend in the Latin Church. This particular canon does not exist in the Code of Canon Law for the Oriental Churches. They have their own code of law.

In addition, the early Fathers are speaking about acts against purity. They lived during a time when the marital act was often treated without any concern for its sacramental meaning. Bl. John Paul tried to set this straight in Theology of the Body. A married priest should know the difference between the sacramental act between husband and wife and the use of the spouse as an object to satisfy his or her lust.

This rule applies to all people of faith. But one does not have to abstain from sexual intercourse with one’s spouse to receive Holy Communion worthilly. One has to refrain from anything that is impure. There is a difference.

Finally, a married person must never forget justice. Spouses have a moral obligation to make themselves available to each other as Christ makes himself available to his Church and the Church to him. Christ and the Church do not abstain from intimacy with each other.

Fraternally,

Br. Jr, because you say so does not make it so.

It is sad to see that you disagree with everything I posted, even though there is ample evidence to support that this is our tradition.

It is most unfortunate to see this topic treated as something unimportant.

A Pope can not change the tradition that we are all called to control our passions and abstain from marital relations before reception of the Eucharist. There would be no logical reason to totally eliminate this practice which has proven itself of benefit and been with the church for at least 1500 years.

 

[JReducation]

Br. JR - you provide some of the coolest answers. I am so thankful for your insight into this forum. You provide clear, precise answers.

I was just wondering, I know that this is off topic, but … if I am allowed to ask… what is the difference between a brother and a priest? Can a brother still celebrate mass or is he only allowed to live in the religious community?

A brother is a man who has consecrated his life to God. He lives for God alone. God is his eternal goal and the source of his strength. His life is centered on prayer, the Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Hours. His first and most important apostolate are his brothers in community. He serves them, cares for them when they’re sick and old, he protects them from spiritual and physical harm. We call this the common life or community living. His life is spent working for the salvation of his soul, that of his brothers and that of the world.

There are some external attributes that make a brother different from a priest and from a layman. The brother consecrates his life to follow the rule of his religious community. His entire spirituality is built on that rule. He also follows the constitutions of the community. These are statutes that the brothers create to address specific needs at specific times in the history of a community. The constitutions can change from time to time. Other men do not have such a structured life.

In addition, the brother vows to obey, live without property and be chaste until his death. Everyone is called to obey legitimate authority. Everyone is also called to live a simple life so that the goods of this world can be shared by all. Everyone is called to live a pure life, respecting the sanctity of sex and human sexuality. The brother promises God that he will get it right or forfeit his eternal soul. That makes him different from other men.

The brother obeys all legitimate commands without questioning. It makes no difference whether the superior is as wise as Solomon or a fool. If the command is not a sin, it is legitimate and the brother obeys. The brother’s superior include the superior of his religious community, the local bishop, the pope, civil authorities, his boss at work, and the other brothers when they vote on something. The brother tries to see obedience as Christ saw it, an act of love that is necessary for the redemption of souls.

Brothers give up the right to own anything. We have many things that are given to us to use. However, we do not own them. The superior can take them away and give them to another brother who may need them. If they break and we don’t have the money to replace them, we do not worry about it. If God does not provide the money, then he does not mean for us to have them. Each community decides what a brother needs for work and for his health. In my community, my closet has two habits, a pair of jeans, one pair of dress grey slacks and one grey clerical shirt, four t-shirts, four pairs of boxers, four pairs of sox, one pair of sneakers and a pair of brown moccasins. I almost forget, I jacket for cold days. Because my ministry involved preaching, teaching and writing, I have access to a laptop. I did not have one before, because I was teaching theology. I had access to the seminary library computers.

Like diocesan priests, we are celibate and never marry. Unlike them, we give up membership in our biological families to embrace our religious family. We still love our parents and siblings and when they are in need, we do what we can for them. If there is a choice to be made, we choose the religious family. Our biological families are given to use by God for the purpose of preparing us to follow where ever Christ calls. Our religious family is where Christ has called us to live and die. Through the vow of chastity, embrace celibacy, unite ourselves to a community of brothers with whom we pray, play, eat, study, rest, retreat, work and share our joys and sufferings. This relationship with our brothers takes precedence over all ministry. Even if a brother is a priest and he has to pray with his brothers, he puts off hearing confession or saying mass until he has prayed with his brothers.

That answers the other question. There are brothers who are priests. Not every priest is a brother. Some priests belong to communities of Clerks Regular. These are religious families that were founded for priests to live and work together. Some of them are: Jesuits, Salesians, Redemptorists, Passionists, Marists, etc. There are priests who are attached to a diocese instead of a religious community. They are secular priests. We often call them diocesan priests. They do not make the three vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. They do not live in a community. Each man is his own person. They share a rectory, which operates like a frat house. Everyone operates on his schedule. However, if they get along, they can agree to eat and pray together. No one is going to stop them. But they don’t have to do so.

Not all brothers are priests. Many brothers live the consecrated life as I have described it. These brothers often teach, nurse, are parish administrators, diocesan chancellors, spiritual directors, preachers, theologians, pastoral counselors, carpenters, cooks, gardeners, farmers, artists, medical doctors, etc.

 

[JReducation]

There are orders that were founded to be brotherhoods. The most famous and the largest are the Benedictines and Franciscans. In these two families, a brother may be a priest. He is still a brother and has all of the duties and rights of any other brother. He has no special place in the community, because he’s a priest and no special privileges. He celebrates mass and other sacraments, with the permission of the superior. His superior may be a brother priest, but does not have to be. Superior are elected by the community, not because they’re priests, but because they have leadership qualities. A man who is a brother can only become a priest after he has completed his formation as a brother. He must have made perpetual vows. He must have the permission of the superior and the superior’s council to be ordained. Without that permission, he may never become a priest. From aspirant to final vows is a period of about seven years of formation. During that time the brother is formed in philosophy, theology, and some academic science or a trade.

The daily life of the brother will vary according to the charism of his community and the vision of the founder. In my own community we pray the Liturgy of the hours five times a day, three time in common. We have daily mass, adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, Lectio Divina, one meal in common (we eat only one meal a day), a silent period from about 9:00 pm to 9:00 am. We live and work with the poorest of the poor. I run a ministry to men who are struggling with unexpected pregnancies and who are poor. I also have an outreach ministry to men who are in need of spiritual guidance. I have no medical insurance, no retirement plan and no life insurance. I have cancer and I beg for my medication, just like any other poor person. I attend a public clinic along with other poor people. My superior is very kind and allows me to have an apple on Sundays. He knows that I love apples.

There you have it. That’s the life of a brother. Most Catholics do not know what a brother is. I have found that some very radical Traditionalists do not like brothers, because most brothers do not celebrate mass or because in communities of brothers, the priests do not stand out. We try to minimize the differences. For example, Franciscans have never had communion rails, Gregorian Chant and have had CITH for centuries. Our founder was not a priest. He was and is revered as Father Francis. Every unnecessary distinction between the ordained brothers and the rest of the brothers is laid aside when you enter our houses. We call everyone, Brother. Only Francis is called Father. The lay people will often call our ordained men, Father. That’s OK. We’re not offended. We understand that it’s a habit.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Br. Jr, because you say so does not make it so.

It is sad to see that you disagree with everything I posted, even though there is ample evidence to support that this is our tradition.

It is most unfortunate to see this topic treated as something unimportant.

A Pope can not change the tradition that we are all called to control our passions and abstain from marital relations before reception of the Eucharist. There would be no logical reason to totally eliminate this practice which has proven itself of benefit and been with the church for at least 1500 years.

I’m sorry my friend, but the pope can change any tradition he wants. What he may never change is dogma and moral teaching. This is not a revealed moral truth nor a revealed dogma.

If you want to see a pope change traditions, just look at Canon Law over the last 1,000 years. You’ll see traditons inserted and deleted. Look at liturgy over the last 1,000 years and you’ll see the same thing.

There are many theological writings from the Fathers and other great teachers that never became doctrines. Even the most of the writings of the great Thomas Aquinas were never doctrine. Sometimes he wrote about a doctrine. Other things were theological constructs and concepts. The Church adopted some, declared some to be in error, and simply ignored others. That’s what happens with theology.

The pope is the highest law giver who is not subject to any other law giver except God. Thats’ why he can’t change revealed truth. Anything under heaven he can bind and unbind. Christ said so.

In the Latin Church, no one is bound to abstain from the marriage bed, if he or she is validly married.

In the East, the abstention comes with an abstention from food as well. The idea is not that sex is bad. The goal is to separate a time before the Eucharist for recollection and prayer. You set aside the temporal, that includes sexual intercourse, food and alcohol too.

The Church does not subscribe to the idea that sex between spouses is to be avoided. In fact, she encourages it. In the Latin marriage rite, there is a prayer for fertility said over the bride. She can’t be fruitful without the marital event. We pray as we believe and we beleive as we pray. If the marriage act is so sacred that we pray it into the celebration of the sacrament, then we cannot profane it by saying that it is bad or sinful to engage on this day or that day. The Eastern Catholic priests do not go to confession or refrain from celebrating mass, if for some reason they fail to abstain from sex the day before. It is a discipline, not a moral law.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Br. Jr, because you say so does not make it so.

It is sad to see that you disagree with everything I posted, even though there is ample evidence to support that this is our tradition.

It is most unfortunate to see this topic treated as something unimportant.

A Pope can not change the tradition that we are all called to control our passions and abstain from marital relations before reception of the Eucharist. There would be no logical reason to totally eliminate this practice which has proven itself of benefit and been with the church for at least 1500 years.

• Friend McAvoy, brother, you misunderstanding a few things Br Jr posted so very well but also incomplete. No Pope has changed Traditions of marital Abstinence, our Eastern brothers seem to have begun, earlier into a married abstinence at Seasons and Communion tradition of theirs.

Brother JR, sir, Marital Relations is more of a responsibility of One spouse to the other, as well as “Justice”. Each has a love obligation to always help, never hurt, the Other. It Is Living Love, as Our Lord and Church have for Us.

We should Fully Appreciate, avoid little quibles, our very few Years from full union with Rome Orthodox, and current ‘Eastern’/‘Byzantine’ brothers In The Church. As Historic Blessed John Paul II the Great, of very recent great memory said: Let us always Preserve, Appreciate all the Cultures, Tongues, Ethnicities, Histories, Wisdoms, Traditions, … (Such as Anglican) Another occassion, He said The Orthodox are one part of our Heart, we are the other

Finally, “Brother” is Figurative respect, but also distinguishes fully dedicated Brothers from Apostolic Powers also Priests.

 

[JReducation]

• Friend McAvoy, brother, you misunderstanding a few things Br Jr posted so very well but also incomplete. No Pope has changed Traditions of marital Abstinence, our Eastern brothers seem to have begun, earlier into a married abstinence at Seasons and Communion tradition of theirs.

Brother JR, sir, Marital Relations is more of a responsibility of One spouse to the other, as well as “Justice”. Each has a love obligation to always help, never hurt, the Other. It Is Living Love, as Our Lord and Church have for Us.

This is what I said. I thought.

We should Fully Appreciate, avoid little quibles, our very few Years from full union with Rome Orthodox, and current ‘Eastern’/‘Byzantine’ brothers In The Church. As Historic Blessed John Paul II the Great, of very recent great memory said: Let us always Preserve, Appreciate all the Cultures, Tongues, Ethnicities, Histories, Wisdoms, Traditions, … (Such as Anglican) Another occassion, He said The Orthodox are one part of our Heart, we are the other

We do appreciate cultural and historical differences. These differences are not doctrines or dogmas. That was my point.

Finally, “Brother” is Figurative respect, but also distinguishes fully dedicated Brothers from Apostolic Powers also Priests.

I don’t understand this part. Help!!!

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Thank You, Lord, for every One Here, increasing each of our understandings. Please help Each of us, Lord to find, Live You more; we all need Your blessings. :byzsoc::heaven:

 

[AntalKalnoky]

This is what I said. I thought.

Thanks for helping my thinking

We do appreciate cultural and historical differences. These differences are not doctrines or dogmas. That was my point.

But do we Appreciate them as Much as we should; John Paul II the Great Tried to teach the World, the Only one to, in the new world ‘cuture’ of Money, Success is ‘god’, God “is obsolete culture” in the Finacial Big Money world.

I don’t understand this part. Help!!!

Blacks use Brother/Sister Best now, aa sign of Respect. The Aramaic Language of Christ had no words for Uncle, follower, relative; therefore their word was “Brother”, explaing why Christ had Thiousamdes of “brothers”. Brother Now is a Beautiful Title in Legion of Mary, Knights of Columbus formally. It is a Profound sign of Respect by some Catholic Clergy, and a Step to full priesthood.
My Fathers side and I have been Jesuit Educated ‘since jesuits first came to Austria’. Historically Jesuits were The Educators of the Leaders and average people, especially as Missionaries also. We learned a few things in Centuries, Now it seems Many Orders are the ideal Teachers. as Fr Groeschell ROF is on worddwide EWTN, Teacher And Inspiration, as all Clergy are. Vivat Jesu.

Fraternally, Tony

We Each learn to Think, rethink,figure out, learn from each other here: CAF. Is the way to Learn; as Living Our Faith in Public Should be: [SIGN]EWTN[/SIGN] Hints to Say the Grace before Meals in Public (Fast Food Too!)

• Thank You Lord, for Brother JR OSF living Your Life, and his Wisdoms teaching us.

 

[JReducation]

We Each learn to Think, rethink,figure out, learn from each other here: CAF. Is the way to Learn; as Living Our Faith in Public Should be: [SIGN]EWTN[/SIGN] Hints to Say the Grace before Meals in Public (Fast Food Too!)

• Thank You Lord, for Brother JR OSF living Your Life, and his Wisdoms teaching us.

Only one correction. Brother is not a step to the priesthood. Brother is the proper title for any consecrated religious male. In some communitieis, if the brother becomes a priest, he is called Father. In many communities, he remains Brother, even if he becomes a priest.

He is Brother, not because he’s on his way to the priesthood, but because he’s a consecrated man. Only the consecrated can use Brother as title. May brothers are priests as well as brothers. Many priests are not brothers. They never become consecrated religious. They remain secular men. Perfect example: Pope Benedict. He is a secular man, not a consecrated religious. He is not a Brother.

In the past, religious men all went by Brohter, ordained or not. Americans and Europeans began to call the ordained Father to distinguish them from the Protestant clergy. Prior to that, they were called Mr, Mssr, or Don. Father was the religious superior of a house.

In my community, no one is allowed to use the title Father, except the superior. The Conventual Franciscans also use Brother for everyone, ordained or non ordained.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF