Abstinence or what? if not open to life

[agentlank]

Long story short my wife and I have 4 kids. Oldest being 5. So a lot of little ones around, we are not in a position financialy or mentally to have more kids at this time. Prior to finding the Catholic faith we used withdrawal for birth control and all of our pregnancies were expected and planned. I obviously don’t agree with that anymore and think that either NFP or abstinence is the answer if one is not prepared to have children. My wife doesn’t have faith in NFP and would like to go back to using withdrawal.(she works in womens health and sees the “failures” of nfp on a regular basis)

What can we do, neither is ready to have another child at this time and I don’t feel like the burden of birth control should be put on me. Although not ideal I feel like abstinence is the answer unless we use NFP. I know it probably isn’t right of me to be closed to life at this time but it is the truth.

 

[LittleFlower378]

If used properly, NFP is 98-99% to postpone pregnancy. It is life giving and good for marriages if there is a serious reason to postpone pregnancy.If your wife won’t take NFP classes maybe you could go on your own. I understand your situation, it is not easy but trust in God, you will be alright.

 

[1ke]

You are correct, abstinence is the moral way to space children. That abstinence can be total, or periodic. If your wife is not open to periodic abstinence based on observations of her fertility, then yes complete abstinence is the choice.

I would encourage your wife to actually learn a specific method of natural family planning before making any decisions.

Her comments regarding seeing “nfp failures” might be coming from a place of some level of ignorance. Most secular sources include “no method” as a “natural” method. I highly doubt your wife sees people who have method failure with Sympto-Thermal, Creighton, or Billings on a regular basis, because only like a teeny tiny number of the general population actually uses a scientific method of natural family planning to begin with. More likely, she is seeing people who do some sort of calendar based rhythm or nothing at all.

Stop talking about NFP in the abstract, and talk about specific methods. Have her do the research and talk to people who are instructors.

 

[Tomdstone]

You are correct, abstinence is the moral way to space children. That abstinence can be total, or periodic. If your wife is not open to periodic abstinence based on observations of her fertility, then yes complete abstinence is the choice.

I thought that one’s wife has a right to oppose abstinence and has a right to request marital relations. And I thought that it was a mortal sin to refuse your wife.

 

[1ke]

I thought that one’s wife has a right to oppose abstinence and has a right to request marital relations. And I thought that it was a mortal sin to refuse your wife.

Certainly either the husband or the wife can request intercourse whenever they please. Since the wife has a stated desire to avoid children at this time, if she DOES want to request marital relations it would behoove her to learn NFP to determine WHEN to request it.

At this time, the wife is not requesting marital relations, she is requesting contraception. The husband cannot comply with that request. The right is to marital relations, not to contraception. If she is willing to accept full, complete unaltered relations then OK.

 

[Regina7]

Used correctly, nfp is more successful at preventing pregnancy than ANY birth control method.

Every single person I know who had a “oops nfp baby” admits being a bit lazy with charting.

It will take a few months before your wife will get the hang of nfp, so you’ll likely be abstaining until she is confident in her charting.

Call your diocese tomorrow to find a nfp teacher. Good luck!

 

[Jon_S_1]

Long story short my wife and I have 4 kids. Oldest being 5. So a lot of little ones around, we are not in a position financialy or mentally to have more kids at this time. Prior to finding the Catholic faith we used withdrawal for birth control and all of our pregnancies were expected and planned. I obviously don’t agree with that anymore and think that either NFP or abstinence is the answer if one is not prepared to have children. My wife doesn’t have faith in NFP and would like to go back to using withdrawal.(she works in womens health and sees the “failures” of nfp on a regular basis)

What can we do, neither is ready to have another child at this time and I don’t feel like the burden of birth control should be put on me. Although not ideal I feel like abstinence is the answer unless we use NFP. I know it probably isn’t right of me to be closed to life at this time but it is the truth.

Have you guys taken an NFP course, I think your wife has some false misconceptions about it.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I thought that one’s wife has a right to oppose abstinence and has a right to request marital relations. And I thought that it was a mortal sin to refuse your wife.

No I don’t believe this is true…does that mean wives can have sex with their husbands against the husbands will? That’s called spousal rape.

 

[Regina7]

No I don’t believe this is true…does that mean wives can have sex with their husbands against the husbands will? That’s called spousal rape.

It shouldn’t ever be against his will. In marriage, the man’s body belongs to his wife and vice versa. This is not to say that a spouse should not be understanding if one isn’t feeling well, etc. After all, the marital act is not (should not) be selfish, so if the man is always thinking of his wife and not his own pleasure, there should never be a problem. Of course, this is the ideal, not always reality.

 

[Tomdstone]

No I don’t believe this is true…does that mean wives can have sex with their husbands against the husbands will? That’s called spousal rape.

I don;t believe that either partner is allowed to use force in such situations. However, I thought it was the Catholic teaching, that generally except for reasons of health, etc., the spouse was required under pain of mortal sin, to agree to the marital requests of the other spouse.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I don;t believe that either partner is allowed to use force in such situations. However, I thought it was the Catholic teaching, that generally except for reasons of health, etc., the spouse was required under pain of mortal sin, to agree to the marital requests of the other spouse.

I’ve never heard that at all and I’ve read the “sex” sections of the catechism quite a bit. Maybe someone else can confirm.

 

[underacloud]

I thought that one’s wife has a right to oppose abstinence and has a right to request marital relations. And I thought that it was a mortal sin to refuse your wife.

The marriage debt is not unconditional. It is owed when it is reasonably requested. Is it reasonable for either husband or wife to request sex during the fertile time when they have already agreed to practise NFP to avoid conception? My strong opinion is no, it is not reasonable, and thus the marriage debt is not owed.

This has been debated in other threads. My opinion, as above, is not directly expressed in any Church teaching, and others disagree, but I think it a sound opinion based on the principles.

 

[Usige]

I’m confused here. Your wife trusts the withdrawal method more than modern NFP?

Withdrawal has a 4% failure rate with perfect use. The typical rate is actually closer to 30%. A modern method like the Billings Ovulation Method has a 0-3% failure rate with perfect use and a typical rate between 6 and 18% depending on how failures were counted. Most of the “failures” are from risk taking or ambivalence about becoming pregnant. Those are not method failures, but usage failures.

That being addressed, no you cannot morally participate in intercourse with the withdrawal method. If she choses to contraception it is her that sins. Unless you willing participate, you are not morally culpable. I cannot see how one could practice that particular method without the man’s active participation on some level.

 

[Rau]

The marriage debt is not unconditional. It is owed when it is reasonably requested. Is it reasonable for either husband or wife to request sex during the fertile time when they have already agreed to practise NFP to avoid conception? My strong opinion is no, it is not reasonable, and thus the marriage debt is not owed.

This has been debated in other threads. My opinion, as above, is not directly expressed in any Church teaching, and others disagree, but I think it a sound opinion based on the principles.

If the woman is on the pill and requests sex, is the husband free to decline for no other reason than his wife’s use of contraception? I assume yes.

I do believe however that the husband is not forbidden to have sex in this circumstance so long as he makes some quiet effort to resolve the situation over time. However, he is not permitted to take steps to contracept himself, eg. Withdrawal, condom, etc.

 

[Tomdstone]

The marriage debt is not unconditional. It is owed when it is reasonably requested. Is it reasonable for either husband or wife to request sex during the fertile time when they have already agreed to practise NFP to avoid conception? My strong opinion is no, it is not reasonable, and thus the marriage debt is not owed.

This has been debated in other threads. My opinion, as above, is not directly expressed in any Church teaching, and others disagree, but I think it a sound opinion based on the principles.

What if one spouse does not agree to use NFP? Can the other spouse require they use NFP? I don’t think so. According to St. Paul:
Let the husband render the debt to his wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband. And in like manner the husband also hath not power of his own body, but the wife. (I Cor. 7:3 & 4)
25. By this same love it is necessary that all the other rights and duties of the marriage state be regulated as the words of the Apostle: “Let the husband render the debt to the wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband,”[28] express not only a law of justice but of charity.
w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii.html
St. Thomas Aquinas has written on the marriage debt:
newadvent.org/summa/5064.htm#article2
According to a Catholic apologetics site (I don’t know how official this is):
“The “marriage debt” means that a married person is obliged, under penalty of mortal sin, to give his (or her) married partner sexual intercourse whenever it is reasonably asked for.
Lawful excuses for refusing: Adultery, sickness, drunkenness, insanity, non-support, danger to an unborn baby.”
catholicapologetics.info/morality/family/smarige.htm

 

[Vico]

What if one spouse does not agree to use NFP? Can the other spouse require they use NFP? I don’t think so. According to St. Paul:
Let the husband render the debt to his wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband. And in like manner the husband also hath not power of his own body, but the wife. (I Cor. 7:3 & 4)
25. By this same love it is necessary that all the other rights and duties of the marriage state be regulated as the words of the Apostle: “Let the husband render the debt to the wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband,”[28] express not only a law of justice but of charity.
w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii.html
St. Thomas Aquinas has written on the marriage debt:
newadvent.org/summa/5064.htm#article2
According to a Catholic apologetics site (I don’t know how official this is):
“The “marriage debt” means that a married person is obliged, under penalty of mortal sin, to give his (or her) married partner sexual intercourse whenever it is reasonably asked for.
Lawful excuses for refusing: Adultery, sickness, drunkenness, insanity, non-support, danger to an unborn baby.”
catholicapologetics.info/morality/family/smarige.htm

If NFP is justified then it is justified not to become pregnant. In that case, abstinence is also justified because the risk of pregnancy may be to great to accept.

 

[Rau]

What if one spouse does not agree to use NFP? Can the other spouse require they use NFP?

Neither spouse can refuse sex without reasonable cause, and the adoption of NFP by that one spouse absent the other spouse’s agreement would not be a reasonable cause. So a one-side adoption of NFP is not possible.

If NFP is willingly agreed between the spouses (say, to defer pregnancy), and then one spouse acts contrary to that agreement, I would not blame the other spouse for proposing a pause in order that they might review their intentions.

 

[Tomdstone]

Neither spouse can refuse sex without reasonable cause, and the adoption of NFP by that one spouse absent the other spouse’s agreement would not be a reasonable cause. So a one-side adoption of NFP is not possible.

That is my understanding also.
I read that absent a reasonable excuse, it is a mortal sin for one spouse to refuse the marital debt when another requests it.

 

[Rau]

That is my understanding also.
I read that absent a reasonable excuse, it is a mortal sin for one spouse to refuse the marital debt when another requests it.

Actually - I don’t know on that point. I am quite sure that should I provide an enquiring look toward my wife, and she sweetly tells me she’s stuffed after a hard day with the kids, no sin has occurred. Were I to push the point, it would be I that sinned against her.

 

[underacloud]

If the woman is on the pill and requests sex, is the husband free to decline for no other reason than his wife’s use of contraception? I assume yes.

I do believe however that the husband is not forbidden to have sex in this circumstance so long as he makes some quiet effort to resolve the situation over time. However, he is not permitted to take steps to contracept himself, eg. Withdrawal, condom, etc.

Yes, that is my understanding. The marriage debt does not apply if the asking spouse intends to contracept. But, noting certain conditions, the other spouse may have relations even when their spouse will contracept.