Abuse at an indult?

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pm1853

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I was recently in a very remote region of the country and happened to find an indult about 15 miles away. I had a slight problem with the mass.

The church itself is an older church that was only mildly renovated from its original look (altar moved away from the wall, tabernacle still in original location). There was no altar rail, so the first row of pews served that purpose.

The mass itseld began as a low mass…“began” being the operative word. There was no cantor, only two candles on the altar, no deacon or sub-deacon, no asperges, etc… etc… Everything in the first half was spoken. Everything was as it should be for a low mass. Somewhere after the credo (I forget where, this was about 3 weeks ago) the priest started chanting everything.

Now, I don’t want to be nit-picky, but is this allowed? Is this some variant of the missa cantata? I only ask because I was honestly really surprised when I started to hear chant. I thought once you began a mass one way, you kept it that way.
 
No, this is not allowed. It is a common abuse at Indults, however.

At the Missa Cantata indult I serve, all that should be is sung, except for the Gospel and the Dismissal. Our celebrant justifies this by the fact that we have to leave the sanctuary in time for the English Missa Normativa which follows soon afterward.

So it’s apparently by necessity that we make this concession. Perhaps this is similar to what happened at the parish you attended.
 
Indults have many of these problems. If the Mass is a Low Mass, the altar should have two candles lit; one on the Epistle side, the other on the Gospel side. So that was correct for a low Mass.

Another abuse I’ve heard at indult cites is about lay people reading the English translations of the readings after the Gospel.
 
This was my second ever low mass. Everything else I’ve been to has either been High Mass or Cantata. My first actually was quite a wonderful experience. I was kind of expecting that.

I don’t think time is an issue really. Once a month this parish has a high mass (I’m guessing its really a missa cantata) and they don’t seem to need to juggle around mass times to accomodate.

I might be naive, but I guess I was expecting the rules to be followed more closely given the nature of those who seem to prefer the indult.
 
You should have flashed your Liturgy Police badge and arrested the celebrant.

Or, you could have prayed.
 
Ray Marshall:
You should have flashed your Liturgy Police badge and arrested the celebrant.

Or, you could have prayed.
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The original poster asked a question about what was allowed and did not hold himself as knowledgable in the area, but searching for an answer. Being at Mass, one should assume that prayer was involved at some point.
 
Mr. Marshall,

How dare you have the audicity to imply that I didn’t pray. That comment was neither called for nor appreciated as you have no idea what was in my heart. Nor does it seem you have any idea what was in my heart when I posted this thread.

As far as praying for the community? Given that I am moving to this very community in August, have a decent knowledge in chant notation, and have a singing voice that won’t peel the paint off the walls, I thought I might volunteer my time. If they’re going to have liturgical music at that mass, it should be done licitly with everything that needs to be chanted chanted.
 
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pm1853:
The mass itseld began as a low mass…“began” being the operative word. There was no cantor, only two candles on the altar, no deacon or sub-deacon, no asperges, etc… etc… Everything in the first half was spoken. Everything was as it should be for a low mass. Somewhere after the credo (I forget where, this was about 3 weeks ago) the priest started chanting everything.

Now, I don’t want to be nit-picky, but is this allowed? Is this some variant of the missa cantata? I only ask because I was honestly really surprised when I started to hear chant. I thought once you began a mass one way, you kept it that way.
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All masses without deacon or sub-deacon are low masses. There are two forms of the “missa cantata”, a simpler form and a “more solemn form”. The directives for the simpler form do not indicate what should be sung, but indicate when the choir sings in places such as the collect, gloria, credo, etc. that the priest is not to remain at the altar but go to the sedelia.

At Mater Ecclesiae, www.materecclesiae.org we had an older priest substitute for Fr. Pasley. He could not chant the Epistle or Gospel so he simply read them. At other places he could not sing either so he read them. No one seemed to mind.

Ken
 
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pm1853:
This was my second ever low mass. Everything else I’ve been to has either been High Mass or Cantata. My first actually was quite a wonderful experience. I was kind of expecting that.

I don’t think time is an issue really. Once a month this parish has a high mass (I’m guessing its really a missa cantata) and they don’t seem to need to juggle around mass times to accomodate.

I might be naive, but I guess I was expecting the rules to be followed more closely given the nature of those who seem to prefer the indult.
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The “High Mass” or more accurately called “Solemn Mass” has a deacon and sub-deacon.

The rubrics for the Missa Cantata, “More Solemn Form” spell out everything for all to follow, the simpler form does not. What I would suggest is to purchase the book that is used by many Tridentine parishes called “The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described” by Fortesque and O’Connell.

It is hard to find a good High Mass, I know. I was told that we at our parish are very lucky to have what we have compared to other TLM locations. Very hard to find musicians who know Gregorian Chant and a good MC who knows how to run the Mass and a good choir director and a good organist…(besides that to get the money to pay the choir director and organist).

Ken
 
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kleary:
All masses without deacon or sub-deacon are low masses. There are two forms of the “missa cantata”, a simpler form and a “more solemn form”. The directives for the simpler form do not indicate what should be sung, but indicate when the choir sings in places such as the collect, gloria, credo, etc. that the priest is not to remain at the altar but go to the sedelia.

At Mater Ecclesiae, www.materecclesiae.org we had an older priest substitute for Fr. Pasley. He could not chant the Epistle or Gospel so he simply read them. At other places he could not sing either so he read them. No one seemed to mind.

Ken
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Nice try, but no cigar.

All Masses without a Deacon and Subdeacon are either a High Mass or a Low Mass.

When it has a Deacon and Subdeacon, it is a Solemn High Mass.

The difference between a high Mass and a Low Mass is that the High Mass is sung, or rather better put, chanted. A Low Mass is said.
 
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otm:
Nice try, but no cigar.

All Masses without a Deacon and Subdeacon are either a High Mass or a Low Mass.

When it has a Deacon and Subdeacon, it is a Solemn High Mass.

The difference between a high Mass and a Low Mass is that the High Mass is sung, or rather better put, chanted. A Low Mass is said.
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New Advent Encyclopedia actually under the heading “Liturgy of the Mass” makes clear that a High Mass is a mass with Priest, deacon, subdeacon, etc…, Low mass is priest only, and Missa Cantata “is a modern compromise. It is really a low Mass, since the essence of high Mass is not the music but the deacon and subdeacon.” This statement can be found down under the sub-heading “E. The Present Roman Mass.”
 
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EddieArent:
Indults have many of these problems. If the Mass is a Low Mass, the altar should have two candles lit; one on the Epistle side, the other on the Gospel side. So that was correct for a low Mass.

Another abuse I’ve heard at indult cites is about lay people reading the English translations of the readings after the Gospel.
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The readings aren’t in English?
 
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JKirkLVNV:
The readings aren’t in English?
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At most Indult Masses the readings are first read or chanted in Latin and then read in English. I believe the abuse was that the lay person was the one reading it again in English.

James
 
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James0235:
At most Indult Masses the readings are first read or chanted in Latin and then read in English. I believe the abuse was that the lay person was the one reading it again in English.

James
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Thank you!
 
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pm1853:
New Advent Encyclopedia actually under the heading “Liturgy of the Mass” makes clear that a High Mass is a mass with Priest, deacon, subdeacon, etc…, Low mass is priest only, and Missa Cantata “is a modern compromise. It is really a low Mass, since the essence of high Mass is not the music but the deacon and subdeacon.” This statement can be found down under the sub-heading “E. The Present Roman Mass.”
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That’s nice, but unless things have changed since the last High Mass I went ot, I think the encyclopedia is wrong. I do not consider it my source. Perhaps things have changed since I served at all three; but that was some time ago.
 
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otm:
That’s nice, but unless things have changed since the last High Mass I went ot, I think the encyclopedia is wrong. I do not consider it my source. Perhaps things have changed since I served at all three; but that was some time ago.
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People don’t always use the most precise terminology. Just like some will call any reader at Mass a lector, others will call any sung Mass a High Mass. The Low-ness of a Missa Cantata is also mentioned in the New Catholic Dictionary.

Of course, in the scheme of things, it really doesn’t matter too much either way. 😉
 
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