Abuse

[she_he]

2 wrongs do not make a right!

after reading the original post the follow ups by the members and then responses to the suggestions posted it has occured to me that 1) Yes in many ways you are Making excuses for your friend.

You seem to be putting total Blame on the priest up to and including that he has somehow “brainwashed her” into this affair.
and that he has “taken advantage of her confession” that she lacks self control when it comes to men.and then to top it off
Blaming that part of lack of self control on “lack of a Male role model”

You stated they are consenting adults!
the key word in that phrase is adults,she is obviously mature enough to know better so blame MUST be on both parties if blame is to be made.

as far as your affair goes that is between you,your partner and god. its up to you to correct that situation…

you seem upset only about the communion sacrament here!
to my way of thinking the sacraments are equal in themselves none being more important than the other.
so the marriage sacrament should be as Important.

Now I also wonder is your friend Married?
if she isnt. and this is probably splitting hairs
would this in itself be considered a “mortal sin”?

I am under the impression that sex outside of marriage although frowned upon is not “adultery”

as far as the priest being involved I am unsure of the ramifications of that aspect but I do know a priest takes a Promise of chastity
not a vow of chastity as does a nun.

Regardless of those particulars, quit making any excuses for either of them,they are both to share equal blames,
if the situation you originally posted bothers you as much as you stated take an action to help resolve it.we are called on by Christ to spread the word,By talking to either of or both of these people
you in turn are Meeting up to that call. Maybe this is supposed to be your call in life,to help a couple of wayward bound souls.

Whatever you decide to do is up to you But relize two people are to blame here not just one…

may Peace be with you in all you do
John

 

[thistle]

she_he:

Now I also wonder is your friend Married?
if she isnt. and this is probably splitting hairs
would this in itself be considered a “mortal sin”?

I am under the impression that sex outside of marriage although frowned upon is not “adultery”

                              John

If there is a sexual relationship between a priest and someone he is committing a mortal sin whether the woman is married or not.
If the woman is married she is committing adultery and that is a mortal sin.
If the woman is unmarried she is committing fornication and that is a mortal sin.
In either case the priest cannot give her absolution as that constitutes a further mortal sin on his part subjecting him to excommunication.
In the case of the woman she cannot receive Communion.

 

[Jonah]

1. it was the priest that told her that it was okay to be intimate because it was between two consenting adults. (not I)

2)I agree that all sacraments are equally important. Thus, I do not go to confession knowing that I have yet to leave my affair partner. I do not receive communion because of my sin. Also I know that the marriage vow is important… very important. I have asked my husband to divorce me because of my sin, he has yet to say yes.

1. I am not making “excuses” for my friend. If I said she was weak in that aspect of her life, I said it because I have been in her life and know it to be true. When it comes to men she has NO self control. I do believe that a lot of her problems come from a lack of good male influence. I’m not making excuses for her… I do know her very well.

4)Yet, I have to agree that they are both at fault.

1. I will continue to encourage my friend to leave this relationship at the cost of losing my best friend…
2. God help us all.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

I posed a question that paralleled this one, and the situation I submitted hypothetically, may vary from that of this thread.

For more, read here from the Apologist, Michelle Arnold:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=93174

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Jonah:

Because this scandalous priest is having an affair with my best friend. I would rather deal with her. The affair is only about 3 months. He has really brainwashed my friend into believing that it’s no big deal, he is a man in love with her and sex is a natural progression; they are consenting and two adults in love.

The thing that makes me upset is that she is receiving communion. I told her that she shouldn’t and she said that he had forgiven her. GRRRRR…

And thank you for your concern for me I accept your prayers. I thank God for being patient and merciful with me during this hideous crime of mine. He is my Rock and my Refuge.

I think perhaps there is a misunderstanding of the forgiveness in Confession…it does presuppose that the person confessing intends to amend his/her ways or sin confessed and to make a real endeavour in good conscience before God to do so. There is a clear implication that one intends to strive and honestly so not to commit the confessed sin again. These are conditions for actual forgivness.

If this priest has forgiven her…then she is acknowledging they are sin by confessing, and he is acknowledging they are in sin by forgiving her. Clearly they both feel there is something to forgive…otherwise why confess.

Even their logic in the situation does not make sense…nor absolutely their theology. Rather incorrect rationalizations trying to justify their sin.

I tend to doubt that they are two adults in love, rather perhaps in lust. But even if they were in love, fornication is clearly prohibilited in our spirituality…and underscored by The Lord: “for I say unto you, do not even look after another with lust in your heart”.

It seems to me these two people are simply rationalizing and not using true reason to do so, to justify what is clearly sinful and seriously so, since the priest in question has made a vow to God of celibacy…he is deliberately and with forethought and with happy forethought breaking his vow to God…serious!
The priest is in a true position of putting his soul in clear jepoardy buy leading a soul in his care into mortal sin and bringing scandal to you … and if the affair ever comes into the light bringing scandal to The Church and all the souls with which God has intrusted this man…and they are in real risk of doing this and deliberately entertaining it. A very serious matter! I think that your friend is blinded by this priest…but oh my he is not, he knows what he is doing. Evil.
God is Love…how can these two people claim to be in love mystifies me!
I have hesitated to judge these two people…but you seem to have asked for advice, help…and have written as I see the situation tho not by direct knowledge but secondhand knowledge.

I feel terribly sorry for you, because it strikes me you are somewhat the ‘meat in the sandwich’ in the situation…an innocent third party much burdened by the situation and with obligations and accountabilities (in so far as you may insight this) in the actual situation itself. Come Holy Spirit.

Regards…Barb

 

[Jonah]

I think perhaps there is a misunderstanding of the forgiveness in Confession…it does presuppose that the person confessing intends to amend his/her ways or sin confessed and to make a real endeavour in good conscience before God to do so. There is a clear implication that one intends to strive and honestly so not to commit the confessed sin again. These are conditions for actual forgiveness.

If this priest has forgiven her…then she is acknowledging they are sin by confessing, and he is acknowledging they are in sin by forgiving her. Clearly they both feel there is something to forgive…otherwise why confess.

This is so true. I don’t know why it didn’t click with me earlier. This is the very reason why I don’t go to confession. Not because I’m not sorry for what is going on in my life. (I am) but because I find it so hard to let go of my own affair that I refuse to abuse the sacrament of confession. (Even though I was advised by my priest to come to confession often )

So not only is my friend abusing the sacrament of Communion but also the sacrament of reconciliation.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon9.gif

Now the reason I say that this is an abuse case on the priest part is because the priest “leads” her to believe “HIS” truths. She told me that when they first started seeing each other the priest took her to the Tabernacle and in front of it he prayed and told God Father that he loved this woman and then he encouraged her to do the same… If that’s not manipulation I don’t know what is.

I’m scared for my friend.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Jonah:

This is so true. I don’t know why it didn’t click with me earlier. This is the very reason why I don’t go to confession. Not because I’m not sorry for what is going on in my life. (I am) but because I find it so hard to let go of my own affair that I refuse to abuse the sacrament of confession. (Even though I was advised by my priest to come to confession often )

So not only is my friend abusing the sacrament of Communion but also the sacrament of reconciliation.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon9.gif

Now the reason I say that this is an abuse case on the priest part is because the priest “leads” her to believe “HIS” truths. She told me that when they first started seeing each other the priest took her to the Tabernacle and in front of it he prayed and told God Father that he loved this woman and then he encouraged her to do the same… If that’s not manipulation I don’t know what is.

I’m scared for my friend.

You have real reason to fear for your friend in that if this scandal ever comes to the light…and most usually they do at some stage, her predicament will be very dire.
However, it strikes me and I could well be very wrong, that she is being deliberately exploited spiritually, emotionally and sexually by the priest in question and his is the MOST SERIOUS spiritual and moral predicament. Her guilt hence lessened or non existant - depending.
The training to become a Catholic Priest would clearly indicate to this man that what he is doing and as a Catholic Priest is MOST SERIOUSLY morally wrong.
I do urge you to place the situation before your Bishop and as another Poster did mention giving your real name and details, but also pointing out carefully that what you relate is second hand information from your friend…give His Grace all the details that you know as related by your friend. It really must stop and possibly only His Grace after careful investigation can effect it.

I will keep this situation and you in prayer. You really are the meat in the sandwich and not at all at your invitation, nor in any way your fault. Your friend and perhaps unwittingly has made you the meat in the sandwich by relating to you what she has of her affair with this man/‘priest’. Do tell her if you do make a decision to approach His Grace prior to actually approaching him, as this may well be the cause of her relating the real truth of the matter if she has been in any way fantasizing or perhaps even telling untruths deliberately to gain your attention.
Many years ago I was a counsellor and it was somewhat an occurance at times to have people approach with complete fantasies and simply looking for attention and other questionable matters.

Send regards…Barb

 

[Jonah]

I do urge you to place the situation before your Bishop

I don’t know … I would feel (be) a hypocrite…

I don’t know…I feel very depressed and confused.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Jonah:

I don’t know … I would feel (be) a hypocrite…

I don’t know…I feel very depressed and confused.

Have you read the link I provided above. I posed this question to a staff apologist, who responded. See my last post above.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Jonah:

I don’t know … I would feel (be) a hypocrite…

I don’t know…I feel very depressed and confused.

Hi there Jonah…I feel very deeply for you! …and am remembering you and the situation in prayer.

I just returned and read your opening post to this Thread. You state that your affair is past tense: “I have been in an affair myself” and that you attend Mass, but not Holy Communion. Were I in such a situation, I would go to Confession and confess my own affair and immediately return to Holy Communion confident of God’s Absolute Mercy on me and that my sin and affair is forgiven.
If I felt I could talk to the priest (entrust him with my confidence and be confident of his good advice in return) to whom I confessed, I would make an appointment to speak to him outside the Confessional and about my friend’s affair and with a priest (you do not say with whom you had your affair - past tense) and lay your whole quandry before him and ask his advice re advising your Bishop and your own deep feeling of being a hypocrite if you did. I would talk the whole matter out with him and then prayerfully ponder it after and follow his advice if it all sat right with me. I can understand that you feel a hypocrite going to your Bishop when you yourself had had an affair (you do not say if it was with a priest).
For this latter reason I would speak to my friend prior to going to His Grace and tell her that you intend to do so because the priest in her affair is a priest and has obligations demanded by the priesthood and his vow of celibacy. That it is a very serious matter. Talk it all out with her after seeking advice hopefully from a priest you trust. On the other hand you may know a religious sister or of one that you feel you could open up to and whom you feel may give you wise and good advice.
Then based on all the information you have decide what your next move should be.
Please do be assured that if an approach to your Bishop is something that you feel you just cannot face or handle, cope with, then do not feel that you must try to do so. If it were me and I felt I could not handle it, I would not speak to His Grace - but I would have a good talk with my friend and let her know the terrible position she has put you in and the real danger she runs of becoming involved in a moral and public scandal in The Church.

Do go to Confession … and return to Holy Communion. The Lord may well make things clear to you after. And I will pray so!
Perhaps the hardest forgiveness of all is when we really have to forgive ourselves and pick up all the ends and walk on and in Peace trusting the Lord’s Absolute Mercy and Love of you. I too have done things in my life that led me to real and active regret, to depression and a feeling still of hypocracy even after going to Confession…but I walked on in blind trust of God’s Love of me and His Mercy and Pardon and over time, and it took time and give yourself all the time you need, the matter become totally in the past and I found Peace.
Your very real and active sorrow and regret, depression, at your own affair reflects that you are indeed very sorry and on a deep and inclusive level of your whole self. Your feeling of being a hypocrite is somewhat untrue, because you have ceased (as I understand matters) your own affair and with sorrow and regret…your friend persists. Were your friend’s affair not with a priest there would be no need to approach His Grace, nor if they ceased their affair.
Were I you and in the position you are in right now, I would treat the whole matter as an unfolding matter with no clear answer just yet and my next move would be to go to Confession and return immediately and with joy in the Lord’s pardon…“I have loved you with an everlasting love, said The Lord”…after that your next move called for I am sure will become clearer to you.

If you wish, there is always the email facility or Private Messaging system on this site.

Regards Jonah and in my prayers - Barb

 

[YinYangMom]

Jonah:

Because this scandalous priest is having an affair with my best friend. I would rather deal with her. The affair is only about 3 months. He has really brainwashed my friend into believing that it’s no big deal, he is a man in love with her and sex is a natural progression; they are consenting and two adults in love.

The thing that makes me upset is that she is receiving communion. I told her that she shouldn’t and she said that he had forgiven her. GRRRRR…

And thank you for your concern for me I accept your prayers. I thank God for being patient and merciful with me during this hideous crime of mine. He is my Rock and my Refuge.

Wow, you know what I pick up from this post?

You aren’t upset with the priest for breaking his vows to the Church.

You aren’t upset with your friend for sleeping with a priest.

You are upset because she is receiving the Eucharist and you are not.

And yet, you aren’t upset enough about not receiving the Eucharist to end your own adulterous behaviors.

Jonah, you’re priorities are out of whack. Wake up!

You don’t want to report the priest to the bishop because you are an adulter yourself and this is your friend we’re talking about here. You don’t want to rat on her, so to speak…the priest can sink or swim as far as your concerned.

Your priest is responsible for the entire congregation. You should be very concerned about his soul and his ability to serve the Catholic Church faithfully.

You should also be **very **concerned about any other women he might be sleeping with and leading astray.

You should also be **very **concerned about your friend receiving the Eucharist in such a sinful state. You believe because she receives absolution through confession from him (which, by the way, it seems is what you’re really jealous about - that she has an outlet for absolution you do not) that her participation in the sacrament is good, but if she has no intention of ending the affair with the priest and her other adulterous ways then her heart is not pure and the Eucharist can be quite damaging to her.

 

[YinYangMom]

2)I agree that all sacraments are equally important. Thus, I do not go to confession knowing that I have yet to leave my affair partner. I do not receive communion because of my sin. Also I know that the marriage vow is important… very important. I have asked my husband to divorce me because of my sin, he has yet to say yes.

I understand this thread was not intended to be about you, but early on it became obvious the resentment you are feeling is really about your friend’s adulterous behaviors being absolved so that she could receive the Eucharist while you continue to deny yourself the benefits of the sacraments. You are hurting spiritually and longing for God’s mercy. You, my friend in Christ, are my concern. You have already expressed your intent to save your friend, so she does not need my help, though she will be in my prayers.

I am comforted to see you respect Jesus enough not to receive Him in the Eucharist while you are struggling with this matter.

Do you realize, however, that the sacraments of reconciliation and eucharist can help you overcome the problem you are stuck in?

You mentioned earlier that if it were as easy as just saying ‘Stop It’ you would have done it decades ago.

It can be that easy if you allow Jesus to help you say those words. Go to confession tomorrow. Yes, I understand you aren’t ready to ‘stop’ cold turkey and that’s why you haven’t gone to confession, but confession can still help with those other areas in our hearts which are making it easy for us to continue with the really bad pattern of behavior.

You go to the priest and you tell him, I am currently in an adulterous relationship. I have not come to confession because I am not ready to break it off so it seems wrong to confess something I don’t plan to stop, but I do know this much - this affair is eating away at me. I have not been able to come to confession nor receive the Eucharist all this time and it upsets me so. I miss having Jesus inside me and I need Him now more than ever. Help me, father, to break away from this affair. Guide me through the steps. I am ready to openly seek God’s help and mercy.

Go home and tell your partner you have begun the process to break off the relationship for the sake of your soul. It’s not about whether or not you love the person or that person loves you. It’s not even about your husband and your marriage. It’s about your relationship with God and you’re tired of pushing Him away. No decent person could ever ask you to give up God for him/herself. Remember that. If anyone asks you to choose between them or God…that person is not worth your time or affections.

When you find yourself making plans to be with your lover, stop what you’re doing and make plans to be with Jesus instead. If it was a phone call, hang up and go pray a rosary. If you were on your way to the place where you were to meet, drive to the church instead and spend as much time before the tabernacle as it takes for you to effectively cancel out the rendezvous.

If the affair is past tense, then you would modify what you say to the priest, saying that you’ve broken off the relationship but have not been able to confess it…and share with him the reasons why you haven’t been able to let go and come to Jesus. He will help you from there.

I will keep you in my prayers. God is still with you. He loves you and He misses you. Please find the courage to mend that relationship so that you can begin your own healing and then that of your marriage. May the peace of Jesus Christ, Our Lord, be with you now and always.

YYM

 

[Jonah]

Wow, you know what I pick up from this post?

You aren’t upset with the priest for breaking his vows to the Church.

You aren’t upset with your friend for sleeping with a priest.

You are upset because she is receiving the Eucharist and you are not.

And yet, you aren’t upset enough about not receiving the Eucharist to end your own adulterous behaviors.

That is quite an assumption.
If that is what you got from reading my post … well I don’t have the energy or desire to change your opinion.
However if she was sleeping with her next door neighbor and receiving Jesus I would be just as upset and it sickens me that it is with a priest.

When I receive the Eucharist I want it to be because I am in grace and I know that I won’t go back to said behaviour . I have gone to confession, I have tried, I have failed… I have given up, I have tried again. So don’t point your finger at me and assume you know who and what I am.

 

[YinYangMom]

Jonah:

I don’t know … I would feel (be) a hypocrite…

I don’t know…I feel very depressed and confused.

Do not discount the possibility that the Holy Spirit is guiding you to help heal the Catholic Church.

Jonah, you are worthy enough - even in this state of sin, hypocrisy, depression and confusion - for God’s love and mercy, therefore you are worthy enough to defend His Church.

This priest is falling victim to Satan’s manipulations, surely you can see this. He needs your help and our help immediately. When a priest falls, it damages the very Catholic Church we love so we have to defend Her at all cost - despite our comfort levels.

 

[YinYangMom]

Jonah:

That is quite an assumption.
If that is what you got from reading my post … well I don’t have the energy or desire to change your opinion.
However if she was sleeping with her next door neighbor and receiving Jesus I would be just as upset and it sickens me that it is with a priest.

When I receive the Eucharist I want it to be because I am in grace and I know that I won’t go back to said behaviour . I have gone to confession, I have tried, I have failed… I have given up, I have tried again. So don’t point your finger at me and assume you know who and what I am.

I deleted that post after reading it again…it was not helpful to you or your friend. My apologies.

 

[Jonah]

Thank you. Your edited post was most helpful and it touched my heart. Rightly so I did not want this to be about me. ( Maybe it is suppose to be.) I have always love my Catholic Church, have always defended it even while in sin.

Yes, God knows me and he is calling me back to Himself. He know that I am weary.

Again thank you for changing your post.

 

[Jonah]

Have you read the link I provided above. I posed this question to a staff apologist, who responded. See my last post above.

I did read it.

Only if you know for certain that the person actually is having an affair with the priest and that the priest is attempting to forgive that sin in the confessional should you go directly to the bishop.

I only know that she is having an affair with a priest because she confided that to me. Here comes the sticky part. I asked her if she was receiving and she said “Yes.” Then I asked her why and if he had forgiven her and to that she responded with a yes. But if it was an “official” confession I do not know. I almost doubt that he would go to the trouble. Doesn’t he have to put on a certain vestment?

 

[Kielbasi]

Jonah:

I’m going to be straight forward because I see no other way to do this.

My best friend is having an affair with priest. …

It would be wrong for you to snitch to the bishop, or to bring this into the open in any way I think.

You can certainly discuss this matter with the priest if you think it will do some good, and/or discuss it with your friend. But detracting from this priest’s good name, particularly as you can’t know for 100% certainly that the story is true or if the affair was true but is now over.

I don’t think you want to do anything to damage this priest (or your friend’s) reputation.

 

[Jonah]

What I wish is that my friend had kept this to herself.

Your advice to me is to keep quiet because I am not 100% sure that my friend is telling me the truth? I know one thing I will never be 100% sure that they are having sex, because I’ll never witness it.

She did call me today to tell me that he was picking her up for lunch and did I want to join them… my answer, “Noooooooo, thank you.”

 

[YinYangMom]

Jonah:

What I wish is that my friend had kept this to herself.

Your advice to me is to keep quiet because I am not 100% sure that my friend is telling me the truth? I know one thing I will never be 100% sure that they are having sex, because I’ll never witness it.

She did call me today to tell me that he was picking her up for lunch and did I want to join them… my answer, “Noooooooo, thank you.”

Hmmm…do you find it odd that she’d invite you to lunch with them?

Maybe next time you should take her up on the offer, that way you can see how they interact with each other in a public setting. I’d be curious to see if he wears the collar, and I’d be looking for any of those intimate body language signs, glances, etc. Given your situation you’d be a good reader of that kind of stuff, don’t you think?

There are three possibilities:

a. She is making this up, teasing you with it (though you say this is really unlikely)…so you’d expect her to flirt openly with him over lunch and sense discomfort or even frustration on his part.

b. She isn’t making this up but the priest is discreet…which means you’d basically see the same signs as a) - her flirting, him being embarrassed or irritated with her

c. She isn’t making this up and the priest really doesn’t think it’s a sin…in which case they’d openly behave as a couple in front of you (collar or not)

Still, really, it’s bad enough she told you and placed you in this awful predicament so I can also see staying far away from anything to do with it!

As for going to the bishop…I don’t think I’d do so, yet. But I would most certainly go to another priest. If there are more than one priests for your parish, I’d go to the other one. If he’s the only priest then I’d go to the neighboring parish’s priest. In a community these guys work together and attend mutual functions and the like. The other priest can advise you on how best to proceed.

But, I’d agree with your gut instinct here about not remaining 100% silent. It is still possible the Spirit is working through you by having you share what you know through confession with this other priest. If you think about it, it’s not outside the realm of how God works in mysterious ways - perhaps you’re going to confession again about your friend and this priest will be the confession which works for you this time (where the grace you receive is enough to begin your healing) while also saving the Church from scandal and saving your wayward priest. It may be enough for the other priest to bring it to the attention to the erring priest that the girlfriend is not being discreet to get the erring priest to break things off with your friend. That would be good for your friend, for you and for the priest.