Abuses at a parish I am temporarily visiting

[ChrisCA]

Hey Guys and Gals,

There is a parish that I have been going to while I am in town here with my Father and have always gone to it for Mass since living in this area. I’m away at college most of the year and only here over the summer.

At the parish I attend near my (secular, public) university, I re-discovered and came back to the Church at this particular parish and have gotten accustomed to the way the Mass is celebrated there. After having reading about how the NO Mass is supposed to be celebrated, I am blessed to have been a part of a parish at my university (which also has a FOCUS (Fellowship of Catholic University Students) chapter) that seemingly is abuse-free. Thank God!

Sadly, however, the parish we attend while I am here for the summer is not quite like the one I have at the university. I don’t want to sound like a complainer, or a nit-picker, but when I started noticing “differences” between the parishes, I didn’t know which was right or wrong, or if both were right/wrong, etc. Because I have made a return to the Church roughly 2+ years ago, I have also been learning more about the Church, the Mass, etc., so I’m by no means an expert on all the Liturgical rules, etc, although I think what I perceive as abuses, etc., has fueled my desire to understand how the Liturgy is “supposed” to be.

Some of the things I have noticed, consistently, with every priest, including when the pastor is the celebrant, at the visting parish are:

1. After everyone has received Communion, the extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion (EMHC) clean the chalices while the priest is sitting and one of the EMHC takes the remaining hosts and places them inside the tabernacle off to the side. The priest does give the EMHC the Body (to eat) to them all individually, but I noticed that one of the EMHC was giving the other EMHC the Cup (to drink) before they all went to their assigned stations. Isn’t the priest supposed to or is this okay?
2. One of the priests encourages clapping before a visiting priest begins his homily and then the congregation claps after the homily. (There is also the clapping just before the final blessing when the priests ask everyone who has a birthday, and then an anniversary, and then those who have a special anniversary, and then today for Father’s day, mind you each category is asked to stand individually, followed by clapping, then the next iteration etc.) When it was the Sunday before Memorial Day, there was a veteran/American themed song that someone had composed that they played during the announcements, just after Communion, before the final blessing. Everyone clapped and gave a standing ovation…
3. The parish bulletin and web site calls the EMHC “Minister of Holy Communion” where they list who is assigned for what particular week, etc.
4. During the sign of the peace, everyone is reaching over and going from all the ends of the pews to give a sign of peace. Actually today, was probably the most excessive I’ve seen it done where a whole pew was exchanging positions so that everyone in the pew could give a kiss on the cheek to each other, they were doing this up until just about the Lamb of God was completely finished. (Maybe they took today’s second reading (“Greet one another with a holy kiss”) literally? )
5. There is a faint melody (to the tune of Marty Haugen’s Mass of Creation) being played when the priest says the “Through Him, with Him, in Him…” (Final Doxology?) (Isn’t there not supposed to be music being played when the priest says this?) Also, not sure, but the changing of the Sanctus, to “God of Power, God of Might”, instead of it being one sentence? (However, the Agnus Dei is sung according to the text, to a tune that is really reverent. )

…

Among other things, this is a parish where it’s noisy before mass, even during mass, sometimes the ushers like to give handshakes and a “How are you doing?” type thing as they go through to signal pews for Communion, where everyone raises their hands during the “And also with you” , “We lift up our hearts…”, etc., holds hands during the Our Father, etc…(I realize these aren’t “abuses” but it seems (IMO) like the clergy at this parish aren’t helping to lead the flock by example …I simply close my eyes, and pray for them and try to be charitable)…

In fact, I have to remember to be charitable and keep praying for this parish throughout the Mass, and realize while it may be like this, it is still valid, and I am receiving the Lord.

I really don’t know if I should take any action, in addition to my prayers, such as writing to the Pastor or contacting the Bishop, or just keep praying for this parish, and even though I am only here for the summer, I just don’t know what to do, if I should do anything more.

I have never been to a TLM Mass, but have seen on YouTube, read about it, and really would like to experience what the Mass was like before my generation.

Although the parish I attend at my university only offers the NO, they frequently sing in Latin, and use the chants throughout the whole mass. Darn, I really miss it there!

 

[MarkThompson]

1. After everyone has received Communion, the extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion (EMHC) clean the chalices while the priest is sitting and one of the EMHC takes the remaining hosts and places them inside the tabernacle off to the side. The priest does give the EMHC the Body (to eat) to them all individually, but I noticed that one of the EMHC was giving the other EMHC the Cup (to drink) before they all went to their assigned stations. Isn’t the priest supposed to or is this okay?

It is fine for one EMHC who has already received Communion from the priest to help him in giving Communion to the others.

As to the purification, it was formerly permitted (at least in the US) for lay servers to help with this, but the permission was withdrawn a couple of years ago.

1. One of the priests encourages clapping before a visiting priest begins his homily and then the congregation claps after the homily. (There is also the clapping just before the final blessing when the priests ask everyone who has a birthday, and then an anniversary, and then those who have a special anniversary, and then today for Father’s day, mind you each category is asked to stand individually, followed by clapping, then the next iteration etc.) When it was the Sunday before Memorial Day, there was a veteran/American themed song that someone had composed that they played during the announcements, just after Communion, before the final blessing. Everyone clapped and gave a standing ovation…

That sounds lame.

1. The parish bulletin and web site calls the EMHC “Minister of Holy Communion” where they list who is assigned for what particular week, etc.

And that’s what they are – that’s what the “MHC” in your abbreviation stands for.

1. During the sign of the peace, everyone is reaching over and going from all the ends of the pews to give a sign of peace. Actually today, was probably the most excessive I’ve seen it done where a whole pew was exchanging positions so that everyone in the pew could give a kiss on the cheek to each other, they were doing this up until just about the Lamb of God was completely finished. (Maybe they took today’s second reading (“Greet one another with a holy kiss”) literally? )

That sounds lame.

1. There is a faint melody (to the tune of Marty Haugen’s Mass of Creation) being played when the priest says the “Through Him, with Him, in Him…” (Final Doxology?) (Isn’t there not supposed to be music being played when the priest says this?) Also, not sure, but the changing of the Sanctus, to “God of Power, God of Might”, instead of it being one sentence? (However, the Agnus Dei is sung according to the text, to a tune that is really reverent. )

On one hand, the GIRM states, “While the Priest proclaims the Eucharistic Prayer ‘there should be no other prayers or singing, and the organ or other musical instruments should be silent’.” On the other, it is not altogether unreasonable for the organ to support the priest’s singing during the Per ipsum if necessary.

As to “God of Power, God of Might”: on one hand, you are correct that our modern understanding of the rules implies that the words should not be altered in this fashion. On the other, again, when this was written, nobody understood the rules with that degree of rigidity, and this remains somewhat a holdover from the way things were (essentially universally) thought about in the '70s and '80s. It will all change at the end of November anyway.

 

[ChrisCA]

It is fine for one EMHC who has already received Communion from the priest to help him in giving Communion to the others.

As to the purification, it was formerly permitted (at least in the US) for lay servers to help with this, but the permission was withdrawn a couple of years ago.

Good to know. The event that first caught my attention was the EMHC always placed the remaining hosts in the tabernacle. I usually like to kneel until the priest sits down after closing the tabernacle, but when I saw the priest sit down after consuming the remaining Blood of Christ, I was confused… I later found out that it is appropriate for the lay to sit, stand, or kneel though after Communion. However, none of the priests, pastor included, nor the deacon has placed the remaining hosts into the tabernacle. Is this something worth of asking the pastor (via e-mail) and showing him the quote below? I am not even a parishioner here, just a visitor for the summer…

163. When the distribution of Communion is finished, the priest himself immediately and completely consumes at the altar any consecrated wine that happens to remain; as for any consecrated hosts that are left, he either consumes them at the altar or carries them to the place designated for the reservation of the Eucharist.

(emphasis mine)

And that’s what they are – that’s what the “MHC” in your abbreviation stands for.

True, I guess I might be over analyzing things…but I’ve been “corrected” by some that it should always be prefaced with the modifier *extraordinary *since the ordinary (therefore, need not have the modifier in front of MHC) are always the ones who are ordained priests or bishops… However, it’s sort of gotten to my head to “be on the lookout” now for things that are not right at this parish…

On one hand, the GIRM states, “While the Priest proclaims the Eucharistic Prayer ‘there should be no other prayers or singing, and the organ or other musical instruments should be silent’.” On the other, it is not altogether unreasonable for the organ to support the priest’s singing during the Per ipsum if necessary.

As to “God of Power, God of Might”: on one hand, you are correct that our modern understanding of the rules implies that the words should not be altered in this fashion. On the other, again, when this was written, nobody understood the rules with that degree of rigidity, and this remains somewhat a holdover from the way things were (essentially universally) thought about in the '70s and '80s. It will all change at the end of November anyway.

I am glad the translation is coming. I understand that it conforms more to the Latin and will be universal across all (or most?) English speaking countries in the Latin Rite. I too hope it will help correct the modified texts that are sung and create rigid uniformity to the Liturgy from parish to parish… Although, I will not be around there in November to see how things change…

 

[mdgspencer]

Several days ago, I saw with great interest in the “Ask an Apologist” forum the question, “What do I do when the sign of peace is overdone?” The apologist’s response to this question there shows that going here and there about the church offering the sign of peace is against the official norm of the Church. (Though I do not see this as a great abuse.) Personally, I find this and applause during the mass very annoying

 

[John_Lilburne]

…

1. After everyone has received Communion, the extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion (EMHC) clean the chalices while the priest is sitting and one of the EMHC takes the remaining hosts and places them inside the tabernacle off to the side. …(

If the extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion are instituted acolytes, then there is no problem with them cleaning the chalices. Only men can be instituted acolytes, so if women are doing it, that is clearly wrong.

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“192. Likewise, when the distribution of Communion is completed, a duly instituted acolyte helps the priest or deacon to purify and arrange the sacred vessels. When no deacon is present, a duly instituted acolyte carries the sacred vessels to the credence table and there purifies, wipes, and arranges them in the usual way.”

“284. … b. Whatever may remain of the Blood of Christ is consumed at the altar by the priest or the deacon or the duly instituted acolyte who ministered the chalice. The same then purifies, wipes, and arranges the sacred vessels in the usual way.”

“249. The deacon … carries the chalice to the credence table and there he or a duly instituted acolyte purifies, wipes and arranges it in the usual way.”

“279. The sacred vessels are purified by the priest, the deacon, or an instituted acolyte after Communion or after Mass, insofar as possible at the credence table.”

Placing consecrated hosts in the tabernacle has the following descriptions in the liturgical books. Under the heading “Mass Without a Deacon” the GIRM has:

“163. When the distribution of Communion is finished, the priest himself immediately and completely consumes at the altar any consecrated wine that happens to remain; as for any consecrated hosts that are left, he either consumes them at the altar or carries them to the place designated for the reservation of the Eucharist.”

In the Ceremonial of Bishops it has in its description of the Stational Mass of the Diocesan Bishop: “165. … Another deacon or one of the concelebrants takes any remaining consecrated particles to the tabernacle, then at a side table cleanses the paten or ciborium over the cup before the cup is cleansed.” (Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1818-9, pages 59-60.)

The Code of Canon Law has in Canon 938§5 “The person in charge of a church or oratory is to see to it that the key of the tabernacle in which the blessed Eucharist is reserved, is in maximum safe keeping.” (The Code of Canon Law: New revised English Translation, HarperCollins Liturgical, 1997, ISBN 000599375X.)

 

[ChrisCA]

Just thought I’d provide some news…

After prayerful thought I decided that I would not contact any one or discuss my concerns that I have had with this parish and just decided to “wait and see” what would happen.

It turns out, that one of the priests was reassigned to a different parish to which he told the congregation this news after one of the masses.

Then, a few weeks later, the pastor told us that he also received a call from his Bishop indicating that he also is being reassigned to a different parish.

Perhaps the new priest and pastor will be good for this parish…I’m also excited for the new mass translation!

 

[ChrisCA]

Well, yet another update. It turns out that the third priest (there are only three at this parish) is also being reassigned at the end of this month.

I really don’t know what to feel. In a sense I’m happy that there will be new changes, hopefully for the better, but at the same time surprised all three priests are being moved by the Bishop…

 

[CB_Catholic]

Well, yet another update. It turns out that the third priest (there are only three at this parish) is also being reassigned at the end of this month.

I really don’t know what to feel. In a sense I’m happy that there will be new changes, hopefully for the better, but at the same time surprised all three priests are being moved by the Bishop…

Three priests at one parish is a blessing around here and unheard of unless it run by an Order. We have 2 for 3200 families, and a parish close to our size in our area had, until recently, 1, for a while. Still, usually they don’t reassign everybody in the same year, esp. the Pastor. That is odd.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

In our parish, we clean all of the vessels, because if the Priest were to do this, it would take him a good 20 minutes (or more). We usually have 14 EMHC at each Mass, and to clean & purify 7 Chalices and 7 Pattens would take a very long time.

Our Bishop has approved lay EMHC cleaning and purifying the vessels, and placing the Ciborium back into the Tabernacle. In fact, at our Mass of Dedication of our new church, he chose to hand it to an EMHC, rather than one of the several Priests.

Clapping: We do that for before Mass announcements, and occasionally after Mass when our Choir has done an extraordinary performance. Once again, even the Bishop did this after the Mass of Dedication of our Church, when he commented to our Pastor, "I didn’t know you had hired a “Professional Choir”. When our Pastor told him that we were all regular Parishioners, he led the applause, and said, “I wish we had this talent at the cathedral”.

As to the “Sign of Peace”, we do sometime go to another pew to give someone the sign of peace, but it is ONLY done at the appropriate time in the Mass. It is NOT appropriate to be “glad handing” people during Communion.

Our pianist ALWAYS does a very low key accompaniment when the Priest is singing the Doxology. Without it, one of our Priests (who could not carry a tune with a dozen buckets) simply cannot sing it. The playing is very soft, and it enables him to “more or less” stay on key to at least a minimal extent. Father Steve is aware that his singing is atrocious, and he specifically requested that this be done.

It sounds to me like some real “nit pickling” is going on here. The fact that some minor things are a bit different from one parish to another is NOT a sign of abuse.

And, it is also not at all uncommon for a Priest to be re-assigned. In my diocese, very few parishes have more than one Priest, and it is VERY rare for one to stay in a particular setting for more than 7 years (our pastor has been her 12, but he also was responsible for building our new Church and Parish complex, and will undoubtedly be transferred next year. The 2nd Priest just celebrated his 1st anniversary of Ordination, and he will likely get his own parish next year.

They will likely bring in an more experienced Priest as our new pastor, and we will likely be back to having just one Priest again (for over 1,000 families). At least, beginning a year from this coming September, we WILL have a Deacon on the permanent staff.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Well, yet another update. It turns out that the third priest (there are only three at this parish) is also being reassigned at the end of this month.

I really don’t know what to feel. In a sense I’m happy that there will be new changes, hopefully for the better, but at the same time surprised all three priests are being moved by the Bishop…

We also have three assigned priests at our parish and have never had all three leave in one year (let alone within a month!). That is unusual. If they are being split up into different parishes, it may be that the bishop is directing some retraining toward the not ideal (but not abusive) practices like constant applause. The one thing you mentioned that stood out to me was having the EMHCs purify the vessels. That is no long allowed and should have stopped a few years ago.

I pray that your new priests are reverent, orthodox men!

 

[ChrisCA]

We also have three assigned priests at our parish and have never had all three leave in one year (let alone within a month!). That is unusual. If they are being split up into different parishes, it may be that the bishop is directing some retraining toward the not ideal (but not abusive) practices like constant applause. The one thing you mentioned that stood out to me was having the EMHCs purify the vessels. That is no long allowed and should have stopped a few years ago.

I pray that your new priests are reverent, orthodox men!

They are being reassigned to different parishes. More applause today after the decaon gave the homily. I’ll admit, it was a good homily, but it seems like it only takes a few people in the corner to start the applause, and then it spreads…

 

[TrueLight]

1. During the sign of the peace, everyone is reaching over and going from all the ends of the pews to give a sign of peace. Actually today, was probably the most excessive I’ve seen it done where a whole pew was exchanging positions so that everyone in the pew could give a kiss on the cheek to each other, they were doing this up until just about the Lamb of God was completely finished. (Maybe they took today’s second reading (“Greet one another with a holy kiss”) literally? )

I don’t know why people don’t realize that this is such a Protestant thing. I attended a Protestant worship service over the weekend, and we had the moment where we were told to turn around and shake each other’s hands and during that time, it got a little out of hand.

 

[nickybr38]

I don’t know why people don’t realize that this is such a Protestant thing. I attended a Protestant worship service over the weekend, and we had the moment where we were told to turn around and shake each other’s hands and during that time, it got a little out of hand.

It really is a Protestant thing because the focus is on the community more then on Christ. At least that’s how I interpret it.

That said my parish LOVES the passing of the peace. Things get way out of hand. People get out of their pews and walk ALL AROUND. It’s ridiculous. I stay in my pew and shake the hands of those nearest me and then face forward and wait for the peace passing to pass.

 

[benedictgal]

In our parish, we clean all of the vessels, because if the Priest were to do this, it would take him a good 20 minutes (or more). We usually have 14 EMHC at each Mass, and to clean & purify 7 Chalices and 7 Pattens would take a very long time.

Our Bishop has approved lay EMHC cleaning and purifying the vessels, and placing the Ciborium back into the Tabernacle. In fact, at our Mass of Dedication of our new church, he chose to hand it to an EMHC, rather than one of the several Priests.

Our pianist ALWAYS does a very low key accompaniment when the Priest is singing the Doxology. Without it, one of our Priests (who could not carry a tune with a dozen buckets) simply cannot sing it. The playing is very soft, and it enables him to “more or less” stay on key to at least a minimal extent. Father Steve is aware that his singing is atrocious, and he specifically requested that this be done.

It sounds to me like some real “nit pickling” is going on here. The fact that some minor things are a bit different from one parish to another is NOT a sign of abuse.

The practices you have listed are ilicit. These are in violation of the GIRM. The bishop cannot override what the Holy Father, himself, has indicated should not be done. Pope Benedict XVI allowed the indult permitting EMHCs to purify the vessels to expire. He chose not to renew it. In fact, the expiration was duly noted in the USCCB’s own Norms for Distribution of Holy Communion in the United States. Furthermore, the GIRM specifies that the priest is the one to go to the Tabernacle during Mass, not an EMHC.

The playing of musical instruments during the Eucharistic Prayer is not allowed. It is ilicit for the organ or any other instrument to be played while the priest is chanting the doxology.