Acceptance and Validity

[mercygate]

julieanne:

I am sorry that I did not tell you that yes, I am Catholic and my husband is Baptist. We were married by a Baptist Preacher.
It is still confusing to me that my husbands batism can be recognized, but our marriage can not be.

My husband was in your position. He was a cradle atholic who left the Church and married me in my Protestant church without obtaining the appropriate waiver. We did not have a convalidation; we had to marry from scratch when I became Catholic.

In other words, for all the previous years of our marriage, we were, in the eyes of the Church, living in open fornication because my husband had left the Church and had joined a Protestant denomination: a formal repudiation of the Church.

Once you get past the harsh language, it makes perfect sense.

You undertook your marriage against the teaching of the Church. That plays a big part in validity.

While you are enjoyng your conjugal privileges in an invalid marriage, you should not be receiving sacraments at all.

 

[julieanne]

romeishome:

Well, Julie as a Catholic you are obligated to follow Cannon Law…if you feel like you need to go to confession…by all means go!..The acts themselves are not sins…

In my studying I have found that yes… to get convalidated I must go to confession before and if the convalidation is a week away form that confession, I may not partake in any marital acts. I must live as Brother and Sister not as Husband and wife until such time my marriage is blessed. I may be wrong. I would love to heaer more feed back. I must sign off until tomarrow. I hope that we can continue this then. Thank you and God bless! julie

 

[Pug]

julieanne:

This is what I have been lead to believe from what I have read recently. That is why I find it so hard to swallow that I am living in sin. We are two baptized people making the bond before God.

Marriage answers are not my strong suit. The problem in your case is that you are Catholic and bound by the canon law and the form of marriage that the Church has. Two Baptists don’t have that issue about the form in the canon law. They are not under its jurisdiction in the same manner as you are. Here is a possible relevant canon:

Can. 1108 §1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses according to the rules expressed in the following canons and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. ⇒ 144, ⇒ 1112, §1, ⇒ 1116, and ⇒ 1127, §§1-2.

§2. The person who assists at a marriage is understood to be only that person who is present, asks for the manifestation of the consent of the contracting parties, and receives it in the name of the Church.

They do have provisions in there if it is not possible (on a desert island, on death bed, etc.) to meet the form. But for your typical American, they can meet the form, so are required to.

Cody, I agree with what you said (your post about marriage being a sacrament.) I looked it up in my moral theology text, and it is clear that it is a sacrament for the two hypothetical baptized Baptists (neither of whom is Catholic).

 

[otm]

Pug:

Marriage answers are not my strong suit. The problem in your case is that you are Catholic and bound by the canon law and the form of marriage that the Church has. Two Baptists don’t have that issue about the form in the canon law. They are not under its jurisdiction in the same manner as you are. Here is a possible relevant canon:

They do have provisions in there if it is not possible (on a desert island, on death bed, etc.) to meet the form. But for your typical American, they can meet the form, so are required to.

Cody, I agree with what you said (your post about marriage being a sacrament.) I looked it up in my moral theology text, and it is clear that it is a sacrament for the two hypothetical baptized Baptists (neither of whom is Catholic).

I would assume that for it to be a sacrament, they would have to have the intention of the Church - i.e. that it is permanent, that they are open to life, etc? In other words, it is not automatic; they would have to have sacrmental intent? The same applies to baptism, that they need to have the intent (although not necessarily the understanding) to do what the Church does when it baptizes - in other words, an atheist could validly baptize if they used the proper form - water and words - and had the general intent to do what the Church does, even though they did not believe in God or an afterlife.

By the way, I would assume that the correct place to look it up would be in a Sacramental Theology textbook, as opposed to Moral Theology.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

julieanne:

I may be confused, but my pastor stated that my husbands Baptist baptism was recognized by the Catholic church so if he wanted to convert, he need not be baptised again. He stated this was so because he was baptised with water and in the name of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If this is true then I pose this question.
Why is it that we need to have our marriage convalidated? We were married by a Baptist preacher, in the name of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

If you were both Baptist at the time and married in the Baptist church according to their rules, and were free to marry (no divorce and re-marriage) and did so freely. The Marriage is accepted as valid and Sacramental.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

julieanne:

This is confusing for me. Do mean your marriage is considered a sacrement in the Catholic church even though you are both non-Catholic?

Yes

If two validly Baptized people (M/F) enter Marriage validly. The Marriage is in fact a Sacrament. I does not matter where the Marriage takes place or what Christian faith they are.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

julieanne:

This is what I have been lead to believe from what I have read recently. That is why I find it so hard to swallow that I am living in sin. We are two baptized people making the bond before God.

You have what is called a “Defect of Form” ALL Catholics are subject to, at all times in all places, the Canon Law of the Catholic Church. There are many Canons that govern Marriage and they all must be followed when a Catholic is involved.

 

[julieanne]

Br. Rich SFO:

Yes

If two validly Baptized people (M/F) enter Marriage validly. The Marriage is in fact a Sacrament. I does not matter where the Marriage takes place or what Christian faith they are.

This is what gets me going. I would think the church would think that any marriage outside of the church would not be sacremental. It seems a little bias to me. If you look at it, my husband and I were married int the name of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, we have intent to raise our children Catholic, we do nothing to stop conception… It just seems to me that our marriage should be viewed as sacremental if the church views two Baptists getting married as sacremental. I understand that I am bound by canon law. Sometimes I have to think about it hard. I mean was canon law written in the bible or by the church? I do not know that I can find in the Bible where it says a Catholic must marry in the church… And that you need special permission to marry outside of your religion. Again I state that My husband and I are having our marriage convalidated because I respect the laws of my church. I just may not agree that in the eyes of God that I am a sinner. I have been faithful to my husband and my church. I did not realize there was a problem getting married by my husbands preacher. And now that we know we are proactively trying to make amends.

 

[romeishome]

julieanne:

This is what gets me going. I would think the church would think that any marriage outside of the church would not be sacremental. It seems a little bias to me. If you look at it, my husband and I were married int the name of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, we have intent to raise our children Catholic, we do nothing to stop conception… It just seems to me that our marriage should be viewed as sacremental if the church views two Baptists getting married as sacremental.

No one is denying that you where married in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, however, what we are saying is that because you ARE Catholic you are obligated to either marry in the Catholic Church, or get permission to marry elsewhere. So, because you ARE a Catholic and you married in the baptist Church, and you did not get the appropriate dispensation to be married in the baptist church then you committed an illicit act. Basically it is viewed as a rebellious act.

julieanne:

I understand that I am bound by canon law. Sometimes I have to think about it hard. I mean was canon law written in the bible or by the church? I do not know that I can find in the Bible where it says a Catholic must marry in the church… .

Julieanne this is dangerous territory to get into! Canon Law was written by the Church…but you must ask yourself…What is the Church? The Church is “the Sacrament of Salvation”…the Church is the “Body of Christ”…the Church speaks authoritativly on matters of faith and morals…basically Julieanne, if we turn a “deaf ear” to what the Church is saying then we have also turned a “deaf ear” to Christ Himself!..to go against the Church is to go against Jesus Christ…because the Church is His Body!
No, you will not find it in the Bible where it says in these exact words: “If you are Catholic you must marry in the Church…”, but you will find…
Holy Bible:

“Obey your leaders and do as the tell you, because they must give and account of the way they look after your souls; make this a joy for them to do, and not a grief-you yourselves would be the losers.”

Hebrews 13:17

julieanne:

I have been faithful to my husband and my church. I did not realize there was a problem getting married by my husbands preacher. And now that we know we are proactively trying to make amends.

Once again, we are very happy that you made the choice to make amends! God will bless you for being obediant!

God Bless,

Cody

 

[puzzleannie]

julieanne:

Thank you for your help. However, it is still somewhat worrysome to me. The two main factors are;

1. My pastor has not told me or even indicated that I should not have been taking Communion for the past 8 years. I found this in my own studies and am now very confused. Why would God not want me to part take the Eucharist? Do I not ask for forgiveness and cleansing before Communion? I tell The Lord that I am not worthy to receive him, but if he only say the word, I shall be healed.
2. Although I know in my heart that I should be following Cannon Law, I do not feel like I need to go to confession and confess to loving things that happen in a marriage (no other nice way to put it) as if the acts in and of themselves were a sin. I was married before God and and in his name. Should it matter where it happened or what ordained man of God performed the ceremony?

Just to clear things up, my husband and I are going to have our marriage convalidated. It strikes me as odd that my pastor has not mentioned anything about a retreat weekend or getting any dispensations?

If you are Catholic you accept Catholic teaching on faith and morals, and accept that the Church’s authority for that teaching comes from Jesus Christ Himself. Your feelings are beside the point. Every marriage situation is unique and no one here can give an opinion, you must do what you have already done, give the priest all the facts of the case. He has given you the judgement you asked for. You do not want to accept it, understandably so.

As far as retreat weekend it is not required for convalidating couples, although many dioceses do offer a seminar of some kind–mainly to address the kinds of questions you are asking. The dispensation, assuming you have been entirely honest with the priest, is not needed or he would have said so. Again each situation is unique so no one here can give an opinion on that except in general terms.

Objectively, if a Catholic marries a non-Catholic outside the Church without the proper dispensations being requested and granted, that Catholic is not married in the eyes of the Church and is living in sin. With regard to your statement #1, if that Catholic receives communion without confessing that sin, he or she receives unworthily and sacreligiously (this is a mortal sin for them only of course if they do so with full knowledge that it is wrong).

If the non-Catholic spouse later decides to become Catholic, he also subjects himself or herself to Catholic teaching and laws on marriage. You have already done the best thing, asked your priest. Now you must decide what every adult Catholic has to decide: to obey or to disobey. Soon your marriage will be convalidated, you will make a general confession, and all will be well and you will be back for communion, and soon your husband beside you. What a great blessing for you and your family and the whole church. Thank you for taking this step, you enrich all of us by doing so.

 

[julieanne]

puzzleannie:

If you are Catholic you accept Catholic teaching on faith and morals, and accept that the Church’s authority for that teaching comes from Jesus Christ Himself. Your feelings are beside the point. Every marriage situation is unique and no one here can give an opinion, you must do what you have already done, give the priest all the facts of the case. He has given you the judgement you asked for. You do not want to accept it, understandably so.

As far as retreat weekend it is not required for convalidating couples, although many dioceses do offer a seminar of some kind–mainly to address the kinds of questions you are asking. The dispensation, assuming you have been entirely honest with the priest, is not needed or he would have said so. Again each situation is unique so no one here can give an opinion on that except in general terms.

Objectively, if a Catholic marries a non-Catholic outside the Church without the proper dispensations being requested and granted, that Catholic is not married in the eyes of the Church and is living in sin. With regard to your statement #1, if that Catholic receives communion without confessing that sin, he or she receives unworthily and sacreligiously (this is a mortal sin for them only of course if they do so with full knowledge that it is wrong).

If the non-Catholic spouse later decides to become Catholic, he also subjects himself or herself to Catholic teaching and laws on marriage. You have already done the best thing, asked your priest. Now you must decide what every adult Catholic has to decide: to obey or to disobey. Soon your marriage will be convalidated, you will make a general confession, and all will be well and you will be back for communion, and soon your husband beside you. What a great blessing for you and your family and the whole church. Thank you for taking this step, you enrich all of us by doing so.

Puzzleannie,

I must thank you for Being honest. It is nice to hear form someone who can listen, hear and make sense on the issues at hand. I applaud you for being able to speak the truth in a personal way so as not to make another person feel bad.

I talked more to my Pator last night arfter Mass. He has explained more to me what is going on and the ways of the church. He knows that I was not willingly defying the church, but also explained why ignorance to canon law is no excuse. He made it clear that many people question canon law and that his door was open anytime to discuss it further.

Again thank you for your help. I did not mean to tread on dangerous waters second guessing the laws of the church. I believe there is no such thing as a silly question. It is what you do with the answers you find that counts!

God bless,
Julieanne

 

[julieanne]

romeishome:

Julieanne this is dangerous territory to get into! Canon Law was written by the Church…but you must ask yourself…What is the Church? The Church is “the Sacrament of Salvation”…the Church is the “Body of Christ”…the Church speaks authoritativly on matters of faith and morals…basically Julieanne, if we turn a “deaf ear” to what the Church is saying then we have also turned a “deaf ear” to Christ Himself!..to go against the Church is to go against Jesus Christ…because the Church is His Body!
No, you will not find it in the Bible where it says in these exact words: “If you are Catholic you must marry in the Church…”, but you will find…

Once again, we are very happy that you made the choice to make amends! God will bless you for being obediant!

God Bless,

Cody

Cody,

Thank you for responding. I appreciate it. I know that ours is not to question. If you look at the post I put up to Puzzleannie, you will see where I am at. Please consider yourself thanked as well.

Thank you and God bless,
julieanne

 

[romeishome]

Blessings,

Cody

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

julieanne:

This is what gets me going. I would think the church would think that any marriage outside of the church would not be sacremental. It seems a little bias to me. If you look at it, my husband and I were married int the name of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, we have intent to raise our children Catholic, we do nothing to stop conception… It just seems to me that our marriage should be viewed as sacremental if the church views two Baptists getting married as sacremental. I understand that I am bound by canon law. Sometimes I have to think about it hard. I mean was canon law written in the bible or by the church? I do not know that I can find in the Bible where it says a Catholic must marry in the church… And that you need special permission to marry outside of your religion. Again I state that My husband and I are having our marriage convalidated because I respect the laws of my church. I just may not agree that in the eyes of God that I am a sinner. I have been faithful to my husband and my church. I did not realize there was a problem getting married by my husbands preacher. And now that we know we are proactively trying to make amends.

Without complications the Convalidation process is fairly simple, I am happy that you are taking the proper steps to resolve this. I have for years stated that the Church has failed in teaching the Sacrament of Marriage to the Faithful. Marriage preparation is very weak. However many say that if the Church were to strengthen Marriage preparation many would just simply go and Marry outside the Church, because the faith of many Catholics is very weak to begin with today. So I’m not sure what the answer is.

 

[Pug]

otm:

I would assume that for it to be a sacrament, they would have to have the intention of the Church - i.e. that it is permanent, that they are open to life, etc? In other words, it is not automatic; they would have to have sacrmental intent? The same applies to baptism, that they need to have the intent (although not necessarily the understanding) to do what the Church does when it baptizes - in other words, an atheist could validly baptize if they used the proper form - water and words - and had the general intent to do what the Church does, even though they did not believe in God or an afterlife.

By the way, I would assume that the correct place to look it up would be in a Sacramental Theology textbook, as opposed to Moral Theology.

Ah, well, I only have a top flight moral theology text, otherwise for sacramental theology I am stuck with the book by Ott (they sell it here at CA). Fortunately, the moral theology text is quite thorough about marriage (and all the moral behaviors therein).

I agree with your point about baptism, but I do notice you don’t seem to mention that they need to specifically intend a sacrament, just to do what it is that the Church does. So, if the same reasoning applies (it does), then one need not really comprehendingly intend to have a sacrament happen when marrying, just to do whatever it is that the Church (Christians) does by marriage. This is usually a simple requirement, not some complex thing. It is not a requirement to actively intend ever detail of what the Church intends, it is just one to do it, whatever it is.

Valid reception of sacraments does not require orthodox belief (not talking about Penance). They could easily be confused about marriage, but still receive it. However, a dead set will against certain things stands as an impediment. But just being vague about having kids is not an impediment. You’d need something more like they colluded in advance to always use contraception and then get sterilized and absolutely never have kids. Most Protestants aren’t like that.

I guess I’m saying that it is my understanding that they don’t really have to have the theology right, they just have to not forcefully set their wills against parts of marriage (like kids) to the extent that it excludes them actually marrying because they cannot be construed to intend marriage.

This applies to Catholics as well as Protestants. Make sense?