Acceptance of conversion

[Catherine_k]

OK… This may be the wrong forum for this discussion… and I beg of everyone to respond only with respect.

AS a convert, there were many personal ramifications for my actions… and many who rejected me because of my faith. What I’d like is a rational discussion of how adherents of different faiths handle converts (both into the faith… is there difficulty in conversion or community acceptance and out from the faith…). What are the FAITH BASED reasons for the actions… and how does that affect and inform individual behavior.

Again, I beg of everyone… if you cannot be respectful and repond with charity then don’t respond. I’d rather silence than unkindness.

 

[Reuben_J]

OK… This may be the wrong forum for this discussion… and I beg of everyone to respond only with respect.

AS a convert, there were many personal ramifications for my actions… and many who rejected me because of my faith. What I’d like is a rational discussion of how adherents of different faiths handle converts (both into the faith… is there difficulty in conversion or community acceptance and out from the faith…). What are the FAITH BASED reasons for the actions… and how does that affect and inform individual behavior.

Again, I beg of everyone… if you cannot be respectful and repond with charity then don’t respond. I’d rather silence than unkindness.

Generally, converting to another religion is always a biggie in life simply because religion is. Thus not only one is affected by this new transition but also our loved ones, friends and relative. The effect may vary but all the same it will not be received with indifference.

When we convert to another religion, we are leaving behind our old belief, practices and even culture to some extent. Thus it is understandable that it may cause hurt and even rejection especially to people close to us, especially the parents.

We can expect some unkindness and disapproval in their response to our action. I would think in a practical sense it is more of what the convert should do rather than how others handle us. Perhaps the easiest way is not to be defensive for that can antagonize them even more. It would be good to be silent on the subject unless being asked. The best witness that I can think of would be to really change our way of life for the better. This always impress, especially the parents.

OTOH, for Christians to handle converts, it would always be with charity and compassion. The element of prayer can never be under estimated for them to find the true faith.

God bless.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

OK… This may be the wrong forum for this discussion… and I beg of everyone to respond only with respect.

AS a convert, there were many personal ramifications for my actions… and many who rejected me because of my faith. What I’d like is a rational discussion of how adherents of different faiths handle converts (both into the faith… is there difficulty in conversion or community acceptance and out from the faith…). What are the FAITH BASED reasons for the actions… and how does that affect and inform individual behavior.

Again, I beg of everyone… if you cannot be respectful and repond with charity then don’t respond. I’d rather silence than unkindness.

It’s clearly hard for adherents of any faith to handle converts. If one considers one’s faith to be the truth, how painful must it be to see loved ones abandon that faith? My grandparents were infuriated when my father left Catholicism for Pentecostalism; they blamed my mother, refused to attend their wedding, and, when my sister was born, threatened to “take” her and have her baptized in the Catholic Church.

It’s absolutely normal. And while it’s true that converts should always be treated with Christian charity and kindness, I also can’t blame people who are despaired when loved ones leave their faith. If I had a child and that child decided to leave the religion in which I was bringing them up, I’d be devastated no matter how much “charity” I’d like to express.

 

[Rawb]

My Godbrother and I have discussed what we would do if the other one left the faith. There’s no danger of that apparent, but we just talk a lot. We both agreed, there would be a lot of long talks, a fair bit of anger, and a sort of forced exorcism (I’m not sure how much we were joking about that last one). We also agreed that if the apostate was preaching heresy or mocking Holy Orthodoxy we would have to sever the relationship. As close as friends and family can be the relationship with God comes first, and I wouldn’t tolerate him making fun of my wife, so how much more should I refuse to accept his doing so to my faith?

 

[coachkfan1]

Is converting to Catholicism from Protestantism considered changing “religions?” Serious question.

 

[Sam_777]

how adherents of different faiths handle converts (both into the faith… is there difficulty in conversion or community acceptance and out from the faith…). What are the FAITH BASED reasons for the actions… and how does that affect and inform individual behavior.

In Islam it’s the death punishment if someone leaves it, here are direct authentic hadiths about the death punishment of the apostasy:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
“Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’”

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
“…Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed…”

Sahih Muslim, Book 016, Number 4152:
“'Abdullah (b. Mas’ud) reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah, but in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community.”

 

[Catherine_k]

Sam_77
“In Islam it’s the death punishment if someone leaves it, here are direct authentic hadiths about the death punishment of the apostasy:”
…
Conversion from Islam must require extraordinary courage… I wonder how those Hadiths you quoted are implemented by Muslims OUTSIDE of countries governed by Sharia. How do those Hadiths inform faith and actions of Muslims living in the US, Canada or elsewhere?

I would love to hear from any of the Jewish members of the forum regarding conversion INTO Judaism and how the faith regards those who leave Judaism. I understand conversion into Judaism is actively discouraged within the traditional community… how does the community at large view conversion (both into and out of)?

 

[GreatergoodGod]

Is converting to Catholicism from Protestantism considered changing “religions?” Serious question.

It shouldn’t matter much given they are both Christian faiths. Having said that some people still consider Catholicism a false religion.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

It shouldn’t matter much given they are both Christian faiths. Having said that some people still consider Catholicism a false religion.

Many Catholics also consider Protestant sects as false religions, it should be added.

 

[Catherine_k]

OK… but how do devout families react when a Protestant joins the Catholic Church? Or vice versa?

 

[Reuben_J]

OK… but how do devout families react when a Protestant joins the Catholic Church? Or vice versa?

I would say, no matter how painful and hurtful it is, we still have to accept them (with charity and compassion and prayer) and not to cut off our relationship with them. It is difficult no doubt, and we wish we may never have to face this situation but if it should happen, then that is the only way as what is expected of the people of the Lord.

 

[Catherine_k]

Agreed Ruben… we need to always act with charity towards others… but sometimes, the faith does not permit that (see the examples from above regarding Islamic Hadiths)

guess I’m wondering if any on the forum have experienced discord over a family member or friend converting… and how this is handled/resolved.

 

[Reuben_J]

Agreed Ruben… we need to always act with charity towards others… but sometimes, the faith does not permit that (see the examples from above regarding Islamic Hadiths)

guess I’m wondering if any on the forum have experienced discord over a family member or friend converting… and how this is handled/resolved.

Yes, I have read about how Islam handles this. And how some Christian churches practically ostracize their members who convert to another religions which are often being shared here in the CAF. All I can say that it is not right because they are enforcing conversion/non-conversion by force when by their action and attitude they are doing just that. We however, recognize that no matter whatever a person does, he/she is still human being and that should not change our relationship with him/her other than disagreement and being hurt by his/her action of converting away from the religion.

In Islam, they even resort to killing and persecution of apostasy. In some Christian churches, they would avoid members who apostatize.

 

[Perseveranze]

In Islam it’s the death punishment if someone leaves it, here are direct authentic hadiths about the death punishment of the apostasy:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
“Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’”

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
"*…Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, “I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) *and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed…”

Sahih Muslim, Book 016, Number 4152:
“'Abdullah (b. Mas’ud) reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah, but in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community.”

There’s three problems with this;

1. It’s not as black and white as you’re level of understanding compels you to believe.
2. Christianity has “executed” far more apostates than Muslims ever have. In fact, you can count the apostate executions with your fingers within Islamic history.

Punishment for apostasy (in any case, extremely rare) was not in practice enforced in later times and was completely abolished by the [Ottoman] Turks by a decree of the Ottoman government in 1260/1844.
(The New Encyclopedia of Islam, by Cyril Glasse, p.54)

1. Go be in denial.

“One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. ** Then let the entire community stone him to death.** Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. ” (Leviticus 24:10-16)
“Suppose someone secretly entices you—even your brother, your son or daughter, your beloved wife, or your closest friend—and says, ‘Let us go worship other gods’—gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known. They might suggest that you worship the gods of peoples who live nearby or who come from the ends of the earth. But do not give in or listen. Have no pity, and do not spare or protect them. You must put them to death! Strike the first blow yourself, and then all the people must join in. Stone the guilty ones to death because they have tried to draw you away from the Lord your God, who rescued you from the land of Egypt, the place of slavery.” (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)

“When you begin living in the towns the Lord your God is giving you, you may hear that scoundrels among you are leading their fellow citizens astray by saying, ‘Let us go worship other gods’—gods you have not known before. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find that the report is true and such a detestable act has been committed among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.** Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the open square and burn it. Burn the entire town as a burnt offering to the Lord your God. **That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. **(Deuteronomy 13: 12-16)

“When you begin living in the towns the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman among you might do evil in the sight of the Lord your God and violate the covenant. For instance, they might serve other gods or worship the sun, the moon, or any of the stars—the forces of heaven—which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then the man or woman who has committed such an evil act must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.” (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)

“Then they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their ancestors, with all their heart and soul. They agreed that anyone who refused to seek the Lord, the God of Israel, would be put to death—whether young or old, man or woman“(2nd Chronicles 12-13)**

 

[Reuben_J]

1. Go be in denial.

It is not very useful to quote the Old Testaments as a yardstick for Christian belief as many of the old practices there were not upheld anymore in Christianity.

Yes, there is no doubt such practices happened then but it does not mean that it should happen now.

 

[Catherine_k]

History is filled with these horrors.

I appreciate your willingness to engage in conversation. What I would like to focus on is the present (or at least the not too distant past… say last 25 years). How does faith inform the way we treat others who either chose to enter into our community or who chose to leave it. For example, there is speculation that Tom Cruise might have to leave Scientology because of their rules that require ostracizing those who leave the community. He has not ostracized Katie Holmes (who rejoined the Catholic Church) and that has fueled the speculation/rumor. Have people experienced the pain of separation caused by an individual’s faith choice and how that was resolved.

 

[joe370]

OK… This may be the wrong forum for this discussion… and I beg of everyone to respond only with respect.

AS a convert, there were many personal ramifications for my actions… and many who rejected me because of my faith. What I’d like is a rational discussion of how adherents of different faiths handle converts (both into the faith… is there difficulty in conversion or community acceptance and out from the faith…). What are the FAITH BASED reasons for the actions… and how does that affect and inform individual behavior.

Again, I beg of everyone… if you cannot be respectful and repond with charity then don’t respond. I’d rather silence than unkindness.

Hey Catherine, If you get a chance, check this out. This guy will give you the best answer possible, because he lived it and talks about here; five parts; it’s really inspiring:

bhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MvfAJ7ap8s

 

[Sam_777]

I wonder how those Hadiths you quoted are implemented by Muslims OUTSIDE of countries governed by Sharia. How do those Hadiths inform faith and actions of Muslims living in the US, Canada or elsewhere?

Simply in those countries Muslims cannot implement Sharia’s law 100%, however, if those secular governments allowed them to do so then the life will become a chaos…

 

[Sam_777]

There’s three problems with this;

1. It’s not as black and white as you’re level of understanding compels you to believe.
2. Christianity has “executed” far more apostates than Muslims ever have. In fact, you can count the apostate executions with your fingers within Islamic history.Punishment for apostasy (in any case, extremely rare) was not in practice enforced in later times and was completely abolished by the [Ottoman] Turks by a decree of the Ottoman government in 1260/1844.
   (The New Encyclopedia of Islam, by Cyril Glasse, p.54)
3. Go be in denial.

“One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. ** Then let the entire community stone him to death.** Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. ” (Leviticus 24:10-16)
“Suppose someone secretly entices you—even your brother, your son or daughter, your beloved wife, or your closest friend—and says, ‘Let us go worship other gods’—gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known. They might suggest that you worship the gods of peoples who live nearby or who come from the ends of the earth. But do not give in or listen. Have no pity, and do not spare or protect them. You must put them to death! Strike the first blow yourself, and then all the people must join in. Stone the guilty ones to death because they have tried to draw you away from the Lord your God, who rescued you from the land of Egypt, the place of slavery.” (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)

“When you begin living in the towns the Lord your God is giving you, you may hear that scoundrels among you are leading their fellow citizens astray by saying, ‘Let us go worship other gods’—gods you have not known before. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find that the report is true and such a detestable act has been committed among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.**** Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the open square and burn it. Burn the entire town as a burnt offering to the Lord your God. **That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. **(Deuteronomy 13: 12-16)

“When you begin living in the towns the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman among you might do evil in the sight of the Lord your God and violate the covenant. For instance, they might serve other gods or worship the sun, the moon, or any of the stars—the forces of heaven—which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then the man or woman who has committed such an evil act must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.” (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)

“Then they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their ancestors, with all their heart and soul. They agreed that anyone who refused to seek the Lord, the God of Israel, would be put to death—whether young or old, man or woman“(2nd Chronicles 12-13)
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon13.gif Firstly, here in Saudi Arabia, and in Afghanistan and Yemen (which implement Sharia’s law 100%) they implement those hadiths literally, secondly, do not compare the Bible instructions to the Islamic ones because they are irrelevant!, lastly, please do not try to use Taqiyya here.

 

[dldalat]

Cho Thuê Xe Du L?ch Uy TÃ*n Ch?t Lu?ng… Liên h? 0909.965.887 g?p Long…