Acceptance of Homosexual Marriage

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The homosexuals in local politics want homosexual marriage that excludes everyone else who currently cannot marry. Yet they claim this is an issue of civil rights. I can’t see where they get that. Either marriage is about procreation, in which case it ought to be restricted to heterosexuals, or else it is about mutual care and emotional support, in which case sex itself is not a necessary condition for the marital relationship.

Explain?
While we can’t eat a cake and have it, we can share a cake and enjoy it.

You could have it set up so that any two co-domiciling adults can engage in a Domestic Partnership which would extend the rights assisting a partnership about mutual care and emotional support, for example a brother and sister could engage in it to provide benefits to each other or friends could engage in it so if they get sick the other is taken able to take care of them. Why shouldn’t a man be able to share the fruits of his labour with anyone he choose whether that is his co-dependent companion, his carer aunt or his un-wed twin sister? Why shouldn’t a woman be able to join her estate with her best friend of many years?

For the latter case you could have something similar to the 2006 Domestic Partnerships Bill in South Australia requires “To now qualify as a domestic partnership, a couple, must live together in a close personal relationship, in a genuine domestic basis for three or more years, or three out of four years." Yes, the Bill the does not discriminate against non-sexual couples, so a brother and a sister could enter into so one could provide the other with health care benefits or best friends could enter it to to extend some other benefit. That is due to some careful manipulation by Archbishop Philip Wilson who turned it from a gay rights grab bag to something compassion rich and the potential to extend it far beyond “same sex partners”
 
While we can’t eat a cake and have it, we can share a cake and enjoy it.

You could have it set up so that any two co-domiciling adults can engage in a Domestic Partnership which would extend the rights assisting a partnership about mutual care and emotional support, for example a brother and sister could engage in it to provide benefits to each other or friends could engage in it so if they get sick the other is taken able to take care of them. Why shouldn’t a man be able to share the fruits of his labour with anyone he choose whether that is his co-dependent companion, his carer aunt or his un-wed twin sister? Why shouldn’t a woman be able to join her estate with her best friend of many years?

For the latter case you could have something similar to the 2006 Domestic Partnerships Bill in South Australia requires “To now qualify as a domestic partnership, a couple, must live together in a close personal relationship, in a genuine domestic basis for three or more years, or three out of four years." Yes, the Bill the does not discriminate against non-sexual couples, so a brother and a sister could enter into so one could provide the other with health care benefits or best friends could enter it to to extend some other benefit. That is due to some careful manipulation by Archbishop Philip Wilson who turned it from a gay rights grab bag to something compassion rich and the potential to extend it far beyond “same sex partners”
The only change I would make is that I wouldn’t require a prior co-domicile relationship. If two widows want to immediately form a mutual alliance to raise their children in case one or the other dies or is incapacitated, I don’t see why that would have to wait more than a couple marrying would have to wait, and many reasons why it should not wait any longer than that. They have a legitimate need to mutually provide another adult with full legal status to manage their affairs, should they be unable, and with whom to pool resources. That does seem fair and in the interest of society.

It is also legitimate that two bachelors might live together and want such an arrangement. They ought not have the whole world assume they’re gay or in some kind of incestuous arrangement. They just want to give each other a legal status so they can choose someone other than their parents to take their part.

It is the movement to falsely make heterosexual and homosexual sexual relationships equivalent that I oppose. They’re just not, and the differences are neither subtle nor inconsequential. I have no opposition to the idea that adults who can’t marry could still legitimately need a convenient means to set up a mutual legal alliance that reflects their legitimate personal alliance. Even though such a legal avenue could be wrongly used to promote arrangements that include an amoral sexual relationship, I don’t think that making the legal connection convenient will unduly encourage such living arrangements.

That, I can see as fair. I do think, however, that society has a compelling interest in making a distinction between couples who can become biological parents and couples who cannot, even when one’s thinking is limited to the purely secular standpoint. Biological parents do matter.
 
The only change I would make is that I wouldn’t require a prior co-domicile relationship. If two widows want to immediately form a mutual alliance to raise their children in case one or the other dies or is incapacitated, I don’t see why that would have to wait more than a couple marrying would have to wait, and many reasons why it should not wait any longer than that. They have a legitimate need to mutually provide another adult with full legal status to manage their affairs, should they be unable, and with whom to pool resources. That does seem fair and in the interest of society.

It is also legitimate that two bachelors might live together and want such an arrangement. They ought not have the whole world assume they’re gay or in some kind of incestuous arrangement. They just want to give each other a legal status so they can choose someone other than their parents to take their part.

It is the movement to falsely make heterosexual and homosexual relationships equivalent that I oppose. They’re just not, and the differences are neither subtle nor inconsequential.
I had the co-domiciling in there so there would be a sense of permanency, but I’m also open to what you said
 
While we can’t eat a cake and have it, we can share a cake and enjoy it.

You could have it set up so that any two co-domiciling adults can engage in a Domestic Partnership which would extend the rights assisting a partnership about mutual care and emotional support, for example a brother and sister could engage in it to provide benefits to each other or friends could engage in it so if they get sick the other is taken able to take care of them. Why shouldn’t a man be able to share the fruits of his labour with anyone he choose whether that is his co-dependent companion, his carer aunt or his un-wed twin sister? Why shouldn’t a woman be able to join her estate with her best friend of many years?

For the latter case you could have something similar to the 2006 Domestic Partnerships Bill in South Australia requires “To now qualify as a domestic partnership, a couple, must live together in a close personal relationship, in a genuine domestic basis for three or more years, or three out of four years." Yes, the Bill the does not discriminate against non-sexual couples, so a brother and a sister could enter into so one could provide the other with health care benefits or best friends could enter it to to extend some other benefit. That is due to some careful manipulation by Archbishop Philip Wilson who turned it from a gay rights grab bag to something compassion rich and the potential to extend it far beyond “same sex partners”
in the US, there is absolutely no reason for such a thing. please read the post below that I’ve copied from my post in Gay Marriage in America over in Social Justice:
ALL of the legal protections except for the tax code exemptions can be easily duplicated by a good attorney (not attorney in a box, not legal forms over the internet). These are all bundled under Advanced Directives. They include a will and/or trust, durable power of attorney, health care power of attorney, guardianships, etc. A good attorney, in your state, will know how and what to draft.

If you are incapacitated, and you did not draw up legal papers ahead of time, decisions about your care will go to your “next of kin” which is a legal term of art. if you are unmarried with no children, your next of kin, under the law, is your parents. if your parents are deceased, then your siblings. a spouse trumps all. if no spouse, but you have kids, the kids trump all unless they are under age.

See why just doing the paperwork is a good idea for EVERYONE?

As to the story about the partner not being on the deed: same thing. the same result would have occured if the partners were unmarried heterosexuals. it’s not a discrimination against SS couples, it’s the law of testate (how property passes at death. Merely having a will would have prevented that entirely.
 
in the US, there is absolutely no reason for such a thing. please read the post below that I’ve copied from my post in Gay Marriage in America over in Social Justice:
Wow, I didn’t know about that (also things in that thread get buried rather fast)
 
in the US, there is absolutely no reason for such a thing. please read the post below that I’ve copied from my post in Gay Marriage in America over in Social Justice:
That doesn’t get you on their health plan at work. Access to health care is a huge consideration.
 
That doesn’t get you on their health plan at work. Access to health care is a huge consideration.
OY! 🙂

I am not as well-versed on health care as I would like to be, but I will say the following:
  1. there are private insurance companies that sell to individuals or an individual family
  2. there are things such as medicare, medicaid, free clinics, health clinics, and reduced pay providers
  3. many, if not most, states have some sort of insurance program for low-income kids under age 18
  4. if you’re in college or graduate school, health benefits are frequently included as part of tuition and if not, you can get a fairly inexpensive policy thru the university
before Romney got his health care package passed in Massachusetts, something like 93% of the population was insured. once he passed that package, that number went to 95%. that’s not that impressive.

quite frankly, I would say that health insurance benefits would hardly give rise to a need to fundamentally change the definition of marriage.
 
OY! 🙂

I am not as well-versed on health care as I would like to be, but I will say the following:
  1. there are private insurance companies that sell to individuals or an individual family
  2. there are things such as medicare, medicaid, free clinics, health clinics, and reduced pay providers
  3. many, if not most, states have some sort of insurance program for low-income kids under age 18
  4. if you’re in college or graduate school, health benefits are frequently included as part of tuition and if not, you can get a fairly inexpensive policy thru the university
Are you saying that most people with employer-sponsored health-care would be happy to give that up, and take the options you suggest here?
 
Are you saying that most people with employer-sponsored health-care would be happy to give that up, and take the options you suggest here?
This is not a thread about health care. if you want to start another thread about such, feel free.
 
Homosexuals cannot procreate.
Again, false. Homosexuals can certainly procreate. They can even procreate with other homosexuals of the opposite sex.
So again: Why should homosexuals have some status that other people who currently can’t marry don’t have? They can’t produce children. What is the excuse for giving them any priveleges? Why should their sexual alliance be given any status that a merely emotional alliance would not have?
So, all post menopausal women should be forbidden marriage?

rossum
 
Again, false. Homosexuals can certainly procreate. They can even procreate with other homosexuals of the opposite sex.
That is not homosexual sex. That is heterosexual sex. In other words, when the person is procreating, the person is acting as a heterosexual.

Otherwise, this isn’t a civil-rights issue at all, because homosexuals are already free to marry someone of the opposite sex, with whom they may choose to procreate.

As for women believed to be post-menopausal, they have not only had coitus, but some have also given birth.

Coitus is substantially different from what homosexuals can do with each other (why does that clarification have to be made?). Heterosexual sex has a substantially different biological raison d’être than the things homosexuals do. Homosexuals can argue that point all day long, but it is a rationalization. If you’re going to argue that heterosexual sex is the same as homosexual sex, you may as well argue that the sun is nothing but a big lightbulb.

At any rate…real life calls, and I have to be off-line for some time. Have a great discussion, kids!
 
Otherwise, this isn’t a civil-rights issue at all, because homosexuals are already free to marry someone of the opposite sex, with whom they may choose to procreate.
Just like in pre-1967 Virginia where everyone was free to marry someone of the opposite sex and the same race, with whom they chose to procreate. Everyone was equal so there was no problem.
As for women believed to be post-menopausal, they have not only had coitus, but some have also given birth.
I said “post-menopausal”, not “believed to be…”. Again, are you calling for a ban on the marriage of truly post-menopausal women?
At any rate…real life calls, and I have to be off-line for some time. Have a great discussion, kids!
Yeah, real life can be a big problem with the internet. 😃

rossum
 
As for the science, you can’t make scientists publish every collection of data that you gather any more than you can force writers to publish every piece of prose that they get through the rough draft stage.

Every scientist I know has papers that he or she hasn’t gotten around to writing up, or papers that were submitted and rejected by the reviewers that they haven’t decided what to do with. So even if they could “require” full disclosure, I don’t know how they’re going to enforce it. It is unethical to suppress data within a data set; it isn’t unethical to decide that you have something intelligent to say about one data set and can’t make heads nor tails (or even just lack excitement necessary to think about it) of the other.
So, your position would be that a pharma company who has completed 5 studies on a new product, and 4 of those stories show it to be ineffective, but one of those studies showed the product to be effective, then it is morally correct to publish only the supportive study? That is what I was talking about. There is nothing about these studies which is mysteriously unintelligible. It is hard data.
 
OY! 🙂

I am not as well-versed on health care as I would like to be, but I will say the following:
  1. there are private insurance companies that sell to individuals or an individual family
  2. there are things such as medicare, medicaid, free clinics, health clinics, and reduced pay providers
  3. many, if not most, states have some sort of insurance program for low-income kids under age 18
  4. if you’re in college or graduate school, health benefits are frequently included as part of tuition and if not, you can get a fairly inexpensive policy thru the university
before Romney got his health care package passed in Massachusetts, something like 93% of the population was insured. once he passed that package, that number went to 95%. that’s not that impressive.

quite frankly, I would say that health insurance benefits would hardly give rise to a need to fundamentally change the definition of marriage.
I don’t buy the claim that 93-95% of people in any state of the US are adequately insured for health coverage. If claims sound plausible, or even only moderately different then my understanding, I don’t ask for proof. But I would have to see some solid proof of that claim before I could swallow it.

If you don’t have, and can’t afford medical insurance, it is a big deal when you get sick. I was dealing with a man just last night with a cardiac event. No insurance. His bills should top $400K.

I can understand why someone who is legally married, yet denied coverage would feel that they are being treated unfairly.

There are really two issues here, the legal one, and the moral one which the CC holds. That is the bottom line. They are at odds with each other.
 
Just like in pre-1967 Virginia where everyone was free to marry someone of the opposite sex and the same race, with whom they chose to procreate. Everyone was equal so there was no problem.

I said “post-menopausal”, not “believed to be…”. Again, are you calling for a ban on the marriage of truly post-menopausal women?

Yeah, real life can be a big problem with the internet. 😃

rossum
How is sex between a black man and a white woman fundamentally different than sex between a black man and a black woman? Repeat this comparison and contrast, now comparing sex between a man and a woman, sex between two woman, and sex between two men. Some things have not changed since 1967, in spite of popular opinion to the contrary.

As for the ban, how about a ban on marriages that can’t be consummated? How do lesbians “consummate” their marriages, again? It’s funny, but no one jumped in to answer that question. (No male or male proxy allowed as a third party, ladies. Just you two and what the Good Lord gave you.) As for the post-menopausal woman, we can be sure she’s not going to go find some guy other than her husband to get her pregnant, is she?

Yeah, gotta get back to real life. These internet conversations never end, and my work never gets done. I guess I may never hear how lesbians consummate.
 
How is sex between a black man and a white woman fundamentally different than sex between a black man and a black woman?
To a racist it was, and there were enough racists around to enshrine their prejudice in law. I am just using it as an example against the “everyone is free…” argument.

Would you want to marry someone who had no sexual attraction towards you and who fancied people of their own sex? What sort of marriage would that be for you? Do you really want a partner who will never love you and who can never love you? Why would you inflict that on your fellow heterosexuals just so homosexuals can enter into a heterosexual marriage.
As for the ban, how about a ban on marriages that can’t be consummated?
There is no such ban currently in place in civil law. A paraplegic may legally get married.

rossum
 
To a racist it was, and there were enough racists around to enshrine their prejudice in law. I am just using it as an example against the “everyone is free…” argument.

Would you want to marry someone who had no sexual attraction towards you and who fancied people of their own sex? What sort of marriage would that be for you? Do you really want a partner who will never love you and who can never love you? Why would you inflict that on your fellow heterosexuals just so homosexuals can enter into a heterosexual marriage.

There is no such ban currently in place in civil law. A paraplegic may legally get married.

rossum
The question itself was a red herring, and you know it.

I didn’t write the laws of nature. No one is forcing homosexuals to marry heterosexuals. What people are saying is that marriage reflects the reality that it is the coupling of males and females produce children and that the relations between males and females are indeed unique. The coupling of males and females is fundamentally and, I am sorry, inarguably different than the coupling of females with other females and males with other males, and all the romantic support grouptalk in the world doesn’t change that.

You have to have friends of the opposite sex. You have to get it that male-female relations are fundamentally different than female-female and male-male relations. This is not about a pure matter of emotions and if this country were not so weird about basic human needs, it would not be about buying health insurance, either. Marriage is about that relationship by which the species goes on. There is a reason to particularly value that relationship in all its forms, whether you like it or not. Yet instead of valuing that relationship, the trend now is to reduce it to its most eroded state and question what is unique about it!

**You may as well say that a house is the same as a ship because not all ships are seaworthy. The ships have started going aground like there is no tomorrow, people are becoming afraid to set sail at all, and instead of questioning whether something needs to change at the shipyard, the fundamental concept of what it means to be a “ship” is questioned!

Why have ships at all? Why can’t we catch all our fish from the dock? And hey, since not all ships can float, why can’t I claim my oceanfront house is a ship and take the tax advantages? Oh, and I think waterfront homeowners should get to be called “captain”, too! I deserve that title! And why should the house have to be near the water, for that matter?

The arguments have gotten that ridiculous!**

This would be a lot less serious if we could survive without a seaworthy fleet. We can’t!!

Heterosexual relations are needed to produce children, and no sexual relations at all between the caretakers are required to raise them. Homosexual sex is not necessary, but heterosexual sex is. Yet homosexuals, I am sorry, covet the status and are jealous to get the status, that goes with being married even though they don’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to making a practical case that homosexual and heterosexual relations are equivalent. (Yes, the emotional relationship is fundamentally different, too, but considering that there is actually argument over the obvious physical differences, it is pointless to argue that issue.)

Make a case that adults living as a household often need and by every right ought to have certain priveleges that are now extended only to married couples. Fine. Just do not fill the world with hot air in order to make the ridiculous case that what exists between a man and a woman can be duplicated by what exists between two men or two women. It can’t. There is a true difference between homosexual and heterosexual, it is not remotely a trivial difference, and that is reality.
 
Real life. Real life. Gotta get back to real life. This forum is going to eat my whole day.
 
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