accepting Christ as personal Lord and Savior: I don't get it

[jamil_joseph02]

Hey I just don’t get this Christian concept of “accepting Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.”

First and foremost, why “personal Lord”? Is it not that Christ is the Savior of all? Why "have Jesus for yourself’? That sounds to me like “I have my own Jesus.” Won’t you prefer sharing Christ to others?

I have a problem with “who’s really got the invitation.” “The four spiritual laws” booklet interprets Revelation 3:20 as "Receiving Christ involves turning to God from self ( I have no problem with that part) and trusting Christ to come into our lives to forgive our sins and to make us the kind of people He wants us to be.

The underlined part is where my problem is. I mean, why would Christ have to come into my life? He’s not lost, He’s just there! watching my every movement, happy when I try to fight the devil, but sad when I fall. It’s just that, in times of despair, I don’t see Him. He’s just there. All I need to do is “come back” to Him. Not Him going back to me (or to you). He’s the one making the invitation, not us!

I just guess the 4 spiritual laws writer has quite lost it? What do you think?

Why don’t we turn to some scripture.

Matthew 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." (Come to me, not invite me).

John 6:37
“All those the Father gives me will come to me (not invite me), and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.”

I also recall the Apostles being “invited” by Jesus while they were fishing (can’t recall the passages). They abandoned what they’re doing. Jesus has the invitation!

“John 15:4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you”. You have to remain in Jesus. Seems like to believe in that “personal Lord and Savior” belief is to say that it was Jesus who did not remain in you, thus the need to invite Him. So it was the vine itself that was cut off from the branches, eh?

Okay, I’m aware that Jesus “did come in” when that person opened the door in Revelation 3. But I guess that’s primarily because Jesus has the invitation – which is the heavenly banquet. I don’t see Jesus in Revelation 3 as a poor guy knocking at your house and begging for your care or concern or something (like, I guess, how the 4 spiritual laws booklet views). Instead, I view Jesus as a champion, knocking at your doors with an invitation – to come to the Father.

My point is, no need to invite Jesus. Instead, it is Jesus who is inviting us. Jesus says “come to Me”. Where’s that scenario in the “personal Lord and Savior” concept?

What’s your side?

 

[dzheremi]

My point is, no need to invite Jesus. Instead, it is Jesus who is inviting us. Jesus says “come to Me”. Where’s that scenario in the “personal Lord and Savior” concept?

I think you make a great point here. While it’s not entirely germane to your larger point, HH Pope Shenouda III of the Coptic Orthodox Church makes a similar point in this sermon when he says that “prayer in its depth is a matter of TAKING from God”. God comes to you and you to Him, but He has come to you first because you cannot come to Him in your sinfulness (and you can’t deal with your sinfulness without His strength). I think that’s ultimately at the root of a lot of Protestant errors – a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between God and man. It seems like Protestants often believe as HH says about people who think that they are giving to God, and hence have this relationship with Him that is like a friendship in that way (my buddy Jesus helps me out, and I thank Him for being so good). I think that this is a very wrong way to look at things. While I do believe in personal faith (in the sense that everyone has an individual path that they walk that may differ from that of their neighbor), I think that the level to which this manifests itself in various Protestant churches and beliefs is highly disturbing. St. Anthony the Great, the father of the monks, tell us that our life and death is with our neighbor. It is not “me and Jesus, professional therapist”, alone together as a unit.

 

[drywall]

Roman 10:13 Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved; (could that mean accepting Christ etc.

Behold I stand at the door and knok, if anyone open the door I will come into him. (when someone knoks on your door do you not invite them in)

 

[drywall]

The Inquisition

“The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly.”

• Friedrich Nietzsche

Today, the xtian church does not have the power it once had, yet, we have witnessed the xtian abuses of children, child rape, molestation and other vile acts that reveal the true nature of many xtians and the effects their “god” has upon his followers. The pedophilia scandals are just a small sample of what xtians are capable of.

Years ago, when the xtian church had complete control over government, human life and spirit, we can see from the inquisition, just how sick these people are and just what lengths they will go to get you to accept “jesus.” Just as is seen in the numerous xtian abuses of children today, years ago, with the inquisition, girls as young as nine and boys as young as ten were tried for witchcraft. Children much younger were tortured to extract testimony against their parents.¹ Children were then flogged while they watched their parents burn.
A documented case in the Silesian town of Neisse reveals a huge oven was constructed, which over a ten year period, more than a thousand “condemned witches, some as young as two years old” were roasted alive.² Many victims were also extremely old, some in their 80’s. This made no difference to the church.
exposingchristianity.com/Inquisition.html

And what does this have to do with the subject at hand

drywal

 

[dzheremi]

He or she has been spamming that across several threads. It seems that someone wants more traffic at their anti-Christian website. I wouldn’t worry about it; they’re likely to get banned soon as a result of such tactics.

 

[TinaG]

Hey I just don’t get this Christian concept of “accepting Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.”

First and foremost, why “personal Lord”? Is it not that Christ is the Savior of all? Why "have Jesus for yourself’? That sounds to me like “I have my own Jesus.” Won’t you prefer sharing Christ to others?

I have a problem with “who’s really got the invitation.” “The four spiritual laws” booklet interprets Revelation 3:20 as "Receiving Christ involves turning to God from self ( I have no problem with that part) and trusting Christ to come into our lives to forgive our sins and to make us the kind of people He wants us to be.

The underlined part is where my problem is. I mean, why would Christ have to come into my life? He’s not lost, He’s just there! watching my every movement, happy when I try to fight the devil, but sad when I fall. It’s just that, in times of despair, I don’t see Him. He’s just there. All I need to do is “come back” to Him. Not Him going back to me (or to you). He’s the one making the invitation, not us!

I just guess the 4 spiritual laws writer has quite lost it? What do you think?

Why don’t we turn to some scripture.

Matthew 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." (Come to me, not invite me).

John 6:37
“All those the Father gives me will come to me (not invite me), and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.”

I also recall the Apostles being “invited” by Jesus while they were fishing (can’t recall the passages). They abandoned what they’re doing. Jesus has the invitation!

“John 15:4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you”. You have to remain in Jesus. Seems like to believe in that “personal Lord and Savior” belief is to say that it was Jesus who did not remain in you, thus the need to invite Him. So it was the vine itself that was cut off from the branches, eh?

Okay, I’m aware that Jesus “did come in” when that person opened the door in Revelation 3. But I guess that’s primarily because Jesus has the invitation – which is the heavenly banquet. I don’t see Jesus in Revelation 3 as a poor guy knocking at your house and begging for your care or concern or something (like, I guess, how the 4 spiritual laws booklet views). Instead, I view Jesus as a champion, knocking at your doors with an invitation – to come to the Father.

My point is, no need to invite Jesus. Instead, it is Jesus who is inviting us. Jesus says “come to Me”. Where’s that scenario in the “personal Lord and Savior” concept?

What’s your side?

Let me try to answer this.

First, He is Lord of all and everything. In Him we live and move and have our being, and all things are sustained by Him. However, as sinners we resist Him and insist on our own way.

He is savior of all men. When we ask Him into our lives, we are saying “Thy will be done in my life” and we surrender our wills to His. It is no longer my life but His. It always was His, but now we are admitting it, and instead of making a habit of fighting Him, we want to conform our thoughts, wills and lives to His. He is no longer remote - He is not just the savior of all men. He is saving me, individually, in the context of salvation being available for all.

I no longer want to reject or resist Him. I want Him to come into every corner of my life, will, being, thought, action, etc. As I sinner I did not want Him anywhere. Now I want Him everywhere. It is hard to express Him coming or going when He is always everywhere, so I guess it is a subjective way of saying it. I think there is a Scripture somewhere that says “Draw close to God and He will draw close to you.” There are also examples of where the Holy Spirit is described as coming or going. Yet He is always there.

And yes, He is the one making the invitation, and drawing us by His Holy Spirit.

-Tina “Hope That Helps” G

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I’ve never found an instruction in Scripture that I should “accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior” and I would be saved. Or that I should “accept Jesus into my heart.” Yet for years I believed that. Why do (some) Protestants teach this, since they also teach Sola Scriptura?

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[TinaG]

Why do (some) Protestants teach this, since they also teach Sola Scriptura?

Sorry, I don’t make the connection

-Tina “Not Following” G

 

[jamil_joseph02]

Roman 10:13 Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved; (could that mean accepting Christ etc.

Honestly, I don’t see this verse as “Jesus going/coming to you”. It’s more like “YOU coming to Jesus”. You are the one making the confession. You are the one saying YES to Him. Not HIM saying YES to you first.

Behold I stand at the door and knok, if anyone open the door I will come into him. (when someone knoks on your door do you not invite them in)

If that’s a stranger of course I wouldn’t let him in. But let’s say that stranger is Jesus who has the heavenly invitation. You have to say YES to Him first before He comes in. Someone earlier provided some good insights about this.

“God comes to you and you to Him, but He has come to you first because you cannot come to Him in your sinfulness (and you can’t deal with your sinfulness without His strength).”

The reverse happens, I guess, in the “accepting Christ as Personal Lord and Savior” belief. Jesus comes to you first before you coming/coming back to Jesus. We invite Jesus into our hearts (we have the invitation), then He comes in. But since when did we have the invitation? Since when was Jesus become the “invited”?

 

[jamil_joseph02]

He is savior of all men. When we ask Him into our lives, we are saying “Thy will be done in my life” and we surrender our wills to His. It is no longer my life but His. It always was His, but now we are admitting it, and instead of making a habit of fighting Him, we want to conform our thoughts, wills and lives to His.

What’s your idea with Jesus’ words “come to Me”? Seems like we should say the YES first, then Jesus coming in will follow. I just think the reverse happens in the “inviting Jesus” belief. We are the one making the invitation, and Jesus is the invited.

He is no longer remote - He is not just the savior of all men. He is saving me, individually, in the context of salvation being available for all.

so this is what it means by the phrase “personal Lord”?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Dandy
Why do (some) Protestants teach this, since they also teach Sola Scriptura?

Sorry, I don’t make the connection

-Tina “Not Following” G

I was born and brought up as a Southern Baptist. I got “born again” – when means “I was saved” – when I “accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior.” I also “asked Him into my heart” which is part of the same “born again” experience taught by the Baptists and many other Protestant denominations. When a Baptist asks, “Are you saved?” they mean, “Have you been born again?”

Since Protestants also teach that the Bible is the only source for faith and morals, one would expect to find a directive to “accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior and you will be saved” or something equivalent in the Scriptures. It isn’t there.

Catholics believe salvation is an ongoing process that begins with baptism and ends with death. It’s not over 'til it’s over. “But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved” Mt 24:13 NAB; “…he that endureth to the end shall be saved” Mt 10:22 KJV.

Every baptized Christian has been “born again,” according to the New Testament.

Did I answer your Q? If not, I’ll try again. Thanks for asking.

Jim Dandy

 

[drywall]

.

Every baptized Christian has been “born again,” according to the New Testament.

Did I answer your Q? If not, I’ll try again. Thanks for asking.

Jim Dandy

Are you saying that we have already been a born again Christian before we were baptized

drywall

 

[JonNC]

Hey I just don’t get this Christian concept of “accepting Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.”

First and foremost, why “personal Lord”? Is it not that Christ is the Savior of all? Why "have Jesus for yourself’? That sounds to me like “I have my own Jesus.” Won’t you prefer sharing Christ to others?

I have a problem with “who’s really got the invitation.” “The four spiritual laws” booklet interprets Revelation 3:20 as "Receiving Christ involves turning to God from self ( I have no problem with that part) and trusting Christ to come into our lives to forgive our sins and to make us the kind of people He wants us to be.

The underlined part is where my problem is. I mean, why would Christ have to come into my life? He’s not lost, He’s just there! watching my every movement, happy when I try to fight the devil, but sad when I fall. It’s just that, in times of despair, I don’t see Him. He’s just there. All I need to do is “come back” to Him. Not Him going back to me (or to you). He’s the one making the invitation, not us!

I just guess the 4 spiritual laws writer has quite lost it? What do you think?

Why don’t we turn to some scripture.

Matthew 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." (Come to me, not invite me).

John 6:37
“All those the Father gives me will come to me (not invite me), and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.”

I also recall the Apostles being “invited” by Jesus while they were fishing (can’t recall the passages). They abandoned what they’re doing. Jesus has the invitation!

“John 15:4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you”. You have to remain in Jesus. Seems like to believe in that “personal Lord and Savior” belief is to say that it was Jesus who did not remain in you, thus the need to invite Him. So it was the vine itself that was cut off from the branches, eh?

Okay, I’m aware that Jesus “did come in” when that person opened the door in Revelation 3. But I guess that’s primarily because Jesus has the invitation – which is the heavenly banquet. I don’t see Jesus in Revelation 3 as a poor guy knocking at your house and begging for your care or concern or something (like, I guess, how the 4 spiritual laws booklet views). Instead, I view Jesus as a champion, knocking at your doors with an invitation – to come to the Father.

My point is, no need to invite Jesus. Instead, it is Jesus who is inviting us. Jesus says “come to Me”. Where’s that scenario in the “personal Lord and Savior” concept?

What’s your side?

One usually won’t find the “accepting Jesus” type of language within Lutheran circles. It is much too active for me, particularly, in the sense that it can be misunderstood as somewhat Pelagian. More often than not, Lutherans use the term “receive” rather than “accept”, as that places the “first contact” as God’s, which is our understanding.

Jon

 

[Cat]

I think you’re looking for a fight. May I respectfully suggest that you ask your questions with less antagonism?

There are a lot of Protestant Christians who deeply love the Lord Jesus and have followed Him for years after “asking Him into their heart to be their personal Savior.” Most of these Christians have been baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Bible, makes them Christians.

Many Protestant Christians are martyred for their faith on the mission field. And among those who are not martyred, many live exemplary lives, practicing charitable love and peace, and doing much good in the Name of Christ.

Do you know any Protestant Christians like this? Can you look these good Protestant Christians in the face and challenge their claim to be Christians, even though our own Catechism tells us that they ARE indeed Christians?

Of course you can’t. You know that they are Christians. It’s their theology that you are questioning. And I don’t blame you for trying to make Protestants think about what they’re praying and teaching. I agree that no where in the Bible does it say to “Ask Jesus into your heart to be your personal Savior.” It does seem hypocritical to claim that the Bible is the source of all their teachings, and at the same time, use a phrase that isn’t even in the Bible.

But you must listen to what the Protestant is asking and try not to analyze it so much. **What the Protestant is saying is that they love Jesus and want to follow Him and Him alone. **

That’s exactly what Catholics say when they are confirmed–they promise to renounce all others and follow Jesus. And even after confirmation, Catholics make decisions to renew their commitment to Jesus.

That’s what it means to be a Christian–to follow Jesus Christ.

The word “personal” is not the same meaning as a “personal” computer or a “personal banker”, in which the object is ours alone and not shared.

What the Protestant is saying is that they want to know Jesus in a deep, personal way, not just in an “intellectual” way, or in a mechanical, ritualistic way. They want the faith that their parents passed on to them to be THEIR faith, too.

They want to be “friends” (not Facebook friends!) with the Lord Jesus. That’s what Jesus told us in John 15–“You are My friends if you do what I command you.”

If Protestants are not using the words correctly in their prayer of submission to the Lord Jesus, does it matter? They do not have Holy Mother Church to teach them. They are “orphans” or “street waifs,” and they have to do the best they can without a mother (at least one that they are aware of) to articulate to the Lord of the Universe their desire for Him and Him alone. Romans 8: 26 says that the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

I believe that the Blessed Mother also prays constantly for Protestants and is the “channel” by which many of them do eventually come into the Catholic Church.

There are Catholics who have followed all the formulas of the Church and never miss a Mass, but they do not live day to day as Christians should and never bear witness to the Gospel.

And there are Protestants who “asked Jesus into their heart to be their personal Savior,” and they live, think, and breathe Jesus every moment of every day and bear witness of Him to all they meet.

Which one will be saved?

I think both will, but I think one will spend more time in purgatory than the other. Remember that God demands much from one who has much. The Catholic has all the splendors of Christ’s Church, including the Holy Scriptures, Sacred Tradition, the Magisterium including all the clergy headed by the apostles themselves. Meanwhile, the Protestant has a Bible, and somehow has to make do with just that.

 

[JonNC]

I think you’re looking for a fight. May I respectfully suggest that you ask your questions with less antagonism?

There are a lot of Protestant Christians who deeply love the Lord Jesus and have followed Him for years after “asking Him into their heart to be their personal Savior.” Most of these Christians have been baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Bible, makes them Christians.

Many Protestant Christians are martyred for their faith on the mission field. And among those who are not martyred, many live exemplary lives, practicing charitable love and peace, and doing much good in the Name of Christ.

Do you know any Protestant Christians like this? Can you look these good Protestant Christians in the face and challenge their claim to be Christians, even though our own Catechism tells us that they ARE indeed Christians?

Of course you can’t. You know that they are Christians. It’s their theology that you are questioning. And I don’t blame you for trying to make Protestants think about what they’re praying and teaching. I agree that no where in the Bible does it say to “Ask Jesus into your heart to be your personal Savior.” It does seem hypocritical to claim that the Bible is the source of all their teachings, and at the same time, use a phrase that isn’t even in the Bible.

But remember, nowhere in the Bible does it say specifically, “Christians must attend Mass weekly,” or “Christians will spend time in purgatory after death,” or “Jesus founded the Catholic Church and Peter was the first pope.”

These theologies are strongly hinted at in various Scriptures, and to deny their reality is to deny the Scriptures. In the same way, there is much in the Bible to hint that we must come to a place in our lives where we make a personal, individual decision that we WILL follow Christ and live up to the baptismal promises that our parents and godparents made for us.

Listen to what the Protestant is asking and try not to analyze it so much. **What the Protestant is saying is that they love Jesus and want to follow Him and Him alone. **

That’s exactly what Catholics say when they are confirmed–they promise to renounce all others and follow Jesus.

That’s what it means to be a Christian–to follow Jesus Christ.

The word “personal” is not the same meaning as a “personal” computer or a “personal banker”, in which the object is ours alone and not shared.

What the Protestant is saying is that they want to know Jesus in a deep, personal way, not just in an “intellectual” way, or in a mechanical, ritualistic way. They want the faith that their parents passed on to them to be THEIR faith, too.

They want to be “friends” (not Facebook friends!) with the Lord Jesus. That’s what Jesus told us in John 15–“You are My friends if you do what I command you.”

If Protestants are not using the words correctly in their prayer of submission to the Lord Jesus, does it matter? They do not have Holy Mother Church to teach them. They are “orphans” or “street waifs,” and they have to do the best they can without a mother (at least one that they are aware of) to articulate to the Lord of the Universe their desire for Him and Him alone. Romans 8: 26 says that the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

I believe that the Blessed Mother also prays constantly for Protestants and is the “channel” by which many of them do eventually come into the Catholic Church.

There are Catholics who have followed all the formulas of the Church and never miss a Mass, but they do not live day to day as Christians should and never bear witness to the Gospel.

And there are Protestants who “asked Jesus into their heart to be their personal Savior,” and they live, think, and breathe Jesus every moment of every day and bear witness of Him to all they meet.

Which one will be saved?

I think both will, but I think one will spend more time in purgatory than the other. Remember that God demands much from one who has much. The Catholic has all the splendors of Christ’s Church, including the Holy Scriptures, Sacred Tradition, the Magisterium including all the clergy headed by the apostles themselves. Meanwhile, the Protestant has a Bible, and somehow has to make do with just that.

I think this is one of the best posts I’ve seen in a very long time. Thank you for sharing the charity that the Catholic Church is known world-wide for.

Jon

 

[Cat]

I think this is one of the best posts I’ve seen in a very long time. Thank you for sharing the charity that the Catholic Church is known world-wide for.

Jon

Thanks. Sorry, I edited my post a little trying to make it more clear. Hopefully I didn’t muddy it up. (Happy 4th of July, we were up at dawn here for a meeting, believe it or not, of our figure skating club!)

 

[meltzerboy]

I think this is one of the best posts I’ve seen in a very long time. Thank you for sharing the charity that the Catholic Church is known world-wide for.

Jon

I second that opinion, Jon. Even as a non-Christian, I can appreciate the charity of this sublime post toward Protestant Christian brethren.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Are you saying that we have already been a born again Christian before we were baptized

drywall

No, I am saying that it is through Baptism that we are born again. That’s what the first Christians believed, and that’s what the New Testament says.

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

**Cat wrote:**But you must listen to what the Protestant is asking and try not to analyze it so much. What the Protestant is saying is that they love Jesus and want to follow Him and Him alone.

Those of us us who grew up being taught that the Church is the W of Babylon and that the Pope is the Antichrist and that Catholics worship Mary and all the other lies about the Catholic Church that are still being taught in (some) Protestant communities to this day know that (some) Protestants may want to follow Jesus but they don’t follow His commandments. They regularly bear false witness and certainly do not love their Catholic neighbors. Been there, done that.

Jim Dandy

 

[TinaG]

Those of us us who grew up being taught that the Church is the W of Babylon and that the Pope is the Antichrist and that Catholics worship Mary and all the other lies about the Catholic Church that are still being taught in (some) Protestant communities to this day know that (some) Protestants may want to follow Jesus but they don’t follow His commandments. They regularly bear false witness and certainly do not love their Catholic neighbors. Been there, done that.

Jim Dandy

Wow.

I am off this thread.

Bye.