Accepting interpretation of Islam according to the CCC

[Khalid]

If they die in the rejection of Jesus, purgatory isn’t in the cards. Thank God I was lucky enough to be able to leave Islam before I died (in America, where it’s legal to change one’s religion) by the power of the Holy Spirit that freed me from whatever demon of fear and darkness rules Islam (which, for me, and for most ex-Muslims I know, was based more on the fear of a graphic Jahannam/Hell than it was on a Spirit of Love, as Christianity is).

I shall pray for you to find yourself in a situation where you can embrace the Gospel openly, or for the reform of KSA, although I believe the latter to be unlikely based on the hadith that states the Arabian Peninsula was to be freed of all non-Islamic religion.

 

[Marybeloved]

CCC 841 is a positive thing for the Christian faith, it shows the generosity of the true GOD, however, Muslims will be considered in the salvation plan but the question is how long they would stay in purgatory…

The CCC must be read and understood as one whole, Catholics tend to read it the way fundamentalists read the Bible- in bits instead of holistically. That’s why people read 841 and think it endorses Islam, forgetting entirely about 65-73, that clearly reject Mohammad’s claim to prophethood, the Quran and Islam as a religion- A rejection summed up in these words:* Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.*

Similarly, 841 must be read with all the sections that follow it, including 848 which says:* "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338**
*
First, People tend to make too much of the church’s admission of a simple logical truth- The one true God cannot be limited to the church’s own action. This does not mean that non-Christians (or Christians themselves, for that matter, including Catholics) have heaven just open to them unconditionally. It’s simply an acknowledgment of the fact that the church is made up of human beings, who may and do and have failed in their duty to reach all fellow mankind with the truth, but God transcends them.

Second, only those who suffer from invincible ignorance (lack the truth through no fault of their own) are said to access salvation outside the visible communion of the church. People who just don’t bother to seek truth because of laziness or love of comforts or whatever (majority, by the way) are not included here.

Thirdly, they do not just automatically get to heaven due to this invincible ignorance, but are given (outside the efforts of the visible church), “the faith without which it is impossible to please God”. That seems to me to simply say, the faith/truth can be taken to them outside the activities of Christians, such that they can make the choice that we all do, or for those with total incapacity or in infancy, can go to heaven or limbo. Also note that the such a salvation is outside Divine revelation! Ways known* only to God*- so we really do not know apart from our knowledge of God’s power and mercy.

Personally, I believe in the idea of limbo for those who cannot choose God, though I view it as part of Heaven. We know there are degrees in the beatific vision- No saint enjoys it to the degree of the Mother of God, or even comes close- Not even St. Joseph who comes next, or even the Highest Angels. It’s not all absurd to me to say that infants and other incapacitated persons (in terms of choice) who have not chosen God or rejected him, are in God’s naked presence and enjoy him in the small limits they can, which to them is still perfect happiness. But this is all speculation. The only truths we must hold regarding these things are:

1. 
   *]God’s power and mercy transcends the means of salvation he has given to the church.
   *]We know for certain that those who believe in Christ and die in friendship with him will be saved
   *]Those who reject him and die rejecting his mercy will be damned.
   *]We don’t know for sure about those who cannot access the means of salvation through no fault of their own- God has not told us.
   *]We have every reason to hope in his grand mercy that he does save them in ways only he knows, because he is both God and merciful.
   
   Beyond these things, everything else regarding the salvation of non-Christians is conjecture and speculation. It’s our duty not to gamble with people’s salvation by just hoping that they might still be saved, instead of doing everything to show them the truth.
   
   Peace.

 

[wisdomseeker]

CCC

841

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Edit to add link:

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

Help me to understand this. is this saying that they are saved just by believing in the same God? because the Jews being the chosen people were to accept Jesus to be saved, according to Jesus.

I understand the they are included in teh plan of salvation as are the gentiles but gentiles had to accept Jesus is the Truth just like the Jews. I dont really understand this paragraph of the Catechism.

 

[Marybeloved]

The full section in the CCC relevant to this question. Please note the purple parts (mine).

**The Church and non-Christians **
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as **"a preparation for the Gospel **and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844* In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: *

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848* "Although in ways known to himself *God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[wisdomseeker]

The full section in the CCC relevant to this question. Please note the purple parts (mine).

**
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337**

this seems to be saying about those who never heard of the Gosple and not those who heard and rejects them.

as I believe that many have died without the chance to ever hear the Gospel. that is possible.

 

[Marybeloved]

**
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - **those too may achieve eternal salvation.

The key word here is “may”, my friend. It says they may achieve eternal salvation- It does not say that they in fact do. All it means is that we cannot assume that they are damned, like those who reject God.

It follows it by this**:
848** “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

Clearly, it’s not just a question of entering heaven through loop-holes, rather God gets to them the faith that is necessary for salvation- without this faith, no one is saved. The CCC is only concerned about **how **those whom the church cannot reach (however you want to define reaching) can get this necessary faith.

 

[Contarini]

Are we as Catholics bound to accept what the Catechism says regarding the muslim religion: That they worship the same God Christians do? Are we free to disagree with that statement in the Catechism?

As I understand it, you are required to accept the theological claim. But it’s possible that the authors of the Catechism were in error about what Muslims actually believe (I don’t think they are, but this is obviously a matter of empirical observation and not a theological issue), and it’s certainly true that the statement involves some semantic choices.

One big hang-up people have, clearly, is that Muslims believe things about God that are different than things Christians believe. So in that sense they don’t simply “worship the same God.” But this is also true of Jews–and not just modern Jews, it seems to me, but OT believers. The obvious difference is that Muslims and post-Christian rabbinic Jews actively reject the Trinity, while pre-Christian Jews had no such opportunity. Still, it seems odd to say that the patriarchs and prophets believed in our God, while Jews and Muslims today do not, even though they may hold to the same content of belief about God as the pre-Christian Hebrews did.

It does seem to me that a pretty basic tenet of historic, orthodox Christianity is that all monotheists believe in the same God.

Khalid, I’d be particularly interested in knowing how you deal with this. You pretty clearly disagree with St. Thomas Aquinas on this point, for instance. Why? Why not simply say, as he did, that all who speak of the First Cause are speaking of the true God?

Edwin

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

It does seem to me that a pretty basic tenet of historic, orthodox Christianity is that all monotheists believe in the same God.

Monotheist is an umbrella term and it include groups with such a wide range of diverse beliefs that the term to some extent loses its wordy usefulness. If Unitarians are Monotheists and Trinitarians are Monotheists can one say therefore an Unitarian means a Trinitarian and have it that Unitarian professes a belief in the Trinity? I thought the basic tenet of “historic, orthodox” Christianity is to believe in God (the Blessed Trinity), one must have a Trinitarian Baptism. Once Jesus Christ came into the world and the truth of the Bless Trinity was revealed through the Church there is no starting over with another theology that excludes the divinity of Christ.

 

[Sam_777]

The CCC must be read and understood as one whole, Catholics tend to read it the way fundamentalists read the Bible- in bits instead of holistically. That’s why people read 841 and think it endorses Islam, forgetting entirely about 65-73, that clearly reject Mohammad’s claim to prophethood, the Quran and Islam as a religion- A rejection summed up in these words:* Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.*

Similarly, 841 must be read with all the sections that follow it, including 848 which says:* "Although in ways known to himself* God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338*
*
First, People tend to make too much of the church’s admission of a simple logical truth- The one true God cannot be limited to the church’s own action. This does not mean that non-Christians (or Christians themselves, for that matter, including Catholics) have heaven just open to them unconditionally. It’s simply an acknowledgment of the fact that the church is made up of human beings, who may and do and have failed in their duty to reach all fellow mankind with the truth, but God transcends them.

Second, only those who suffer from invincible ignorance (lack the truth through no fault of their own) are said to access salvation outside the visible communion of the church. People who just don’t bother to seek truth because of laziness or love of comforts or whatever (majority, by the way) are not included here.

Thirdly, they do not just automatically get to heaven due to this invincible ignorance, but are given (outside the efforts of the visible church), “the faith without which it is impossible to please God”. That seems to me to simply say, the faith/truth can be taken to them outside the activities of Christians, such that they can make the choice that we all do, or for those with total incapacity or in infancy, can go to heaven or limbo. Also note that the such a salvation is outside Divine revelation! Ways known* only to God*- so we really do not know apart from our knowledge of God’s power and mercy.

Personally, I believe in the idea of limbo for those who cannot choose God, though I view it as part of Heaven. We know there are degrees in the beatific vision- No saint enjoys it to the degree of the Mother of God, or even comes close- Not even St. Joseph who comes next, or even the Highest Angels. It’s not all absurd to me to say that infants and other incapacitated persons (in terms of choice) who have not chosen God or rejected him, are in God’s naked presence and enjoy him in the small limits they can, which to them is still perfect happiness. But this is all speculation. The only truths we must hold regarding these things are:

1. 
   *]God’s power and mercy transcends the means of salvation he has given to the church.
   *]We know for certain that those who believe in Christ and die in friendship with him will be saved
   *]Those who reject him and die rejecting his mercy will be damned.
   *]We don’t know for sure about those who cannot access the means of salvation through no fault of their own- God has not told us.
   *]We have every reason to hope in his grand mercy that he does save them in ways only he knows, because he is both God and merciful.
   
   Beyond these things, everything else regarding the salvation of non-Christians is conjecture and speculation. It’s our duty not to gamble with people’s salvation by just hoping that they might still be saved, instead of doing everything to show them the truth.
   
   Peace.

1. 
   http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif Thank you for your efforts in explaining that in details…