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jmcrae
Guest
The idea that nothing, including sin or blasphemy on my part, can separate me from God and from going to Heaven when I die. Also known as “once saved, always saved.”
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justasking4
Guest
Do you know of any passages of Scripture that would support this?Originally Posted by justasking4 View Post
Not sure what you mean by “unconditional salvation”?
jmcrae
The idea that nothing, including sin or blasphemy on my part, can separate me from God and from going to Heaven when I die. Also known as “once saved, always saved.”
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jmcrae
Guest
No. That’s why I consider belief in OSAS to be a heresy.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Re-baptism for sentimental reasons is not a valid reason to baptize. If the previous baptism was invalid for any reason, a baptism can be performed. Otherwise, the best you can do to enjoy the experience of baptism is a vicarious experience ~ viewing the baptism of another. If a person were to desire re-baptism for a sentimental reason, such as being “reminded of the joy” of their previous baptism, that person clearly needs some educating on what their original baptism entailed. A priest would not baptize under such conditions.
Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) has been a subject of this thread as well. Catholics do not accept Once Saved Always Saved, but the Catholic version could easily be “Once Baptized Always Baptized”. It’s not something that is repeated.
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justasking4
Guest
How should we understand John 10:27-28 which says –No. That’s why I consider belief in OSAS to be a heresy.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I** give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand**.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
An earlier post made reference to the example of a person who had previously accepted Jesus as their personal savior (OSAS) who then proceeded to commit adultery repeatedly. If one is “once saved always saved” and the saving is unconditional, then any sin that comes afterwards logically cannot affect salvation. But when extreme examples, such as the repeated adultery example, are given to OSAS proponents, they often sidestep the question by calling into question whether the original acceptance of Jesus as Savior was actually sincere. I submit that this points to the flaw in the very concept of OSAS.
A person can sincerely accept Jesus and then proceed to commit sin, even grave sin, yet their profession to accept Jesus could very well have been sincere at the time it was made. “Once Saved Always Saved” is illogical. Baptism brings us into the Christian fold, but it is up to us to organize our life faithfully.
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mercygate
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Didn’t you mention up-thread that we all renew our baptismal vows every year at the Mass of the Easter Vigil? That’s a great way to “experience” it again.
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MelanieAnne
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Yes, I did suggest enjoying the baptism of others at an Easter Vigil as a way to enjoy the sacrament of baptism in a vicarious way. But that is not a rebaptism in the sense that was being asked. We renew our baptism every time we enter the church and use the holy water too, but that isn’t a rebaptism. The other questioner was asking about having a priest actually re-baptize a person, not perform some ritual memorializing baptism. Rebaptism is the thing that isn’t done.
Many sacraments are done only once. Baptism is one of those. Confirmation is another. For a sacrament that is repeated, try the Eucharist. You can go every day.
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mercygate
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Right, right, right. But what I was saying was not that we can just enjoy the baptism of others, but we actually REPEAT our promises personally each year. That’s as close as you can get.Yes, I did suggest enjoying the baptism of others at an Easter Vigil as a way to enjoy the sacrament of baptism in a vicarious way. But that is not a rebaptism in the sense that was being asked. We renew our baptism every time we enter the church and use the holy water too, but that isn’t a rebaptism. The other questioner was asking about having a priest actually re-baptize a person, not perform some ritual memorializing baptism. Rebaptism is the thing that isn’t done.
Many sacraments are done only once. Baptism is one of those. Confirmation is another. For a sacrament that is repeated, try the Eucharist. You can go every day.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Oh, I know, but it sounded as if the other person, that I was answering before, was asking about the possibility of a person having a priest actually baptize them again, so that they could enjoy the experience again.
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justasking4
Guest
What do you mean by “unconditional’?
True.
Not so. If a person is doing the things you mention here and is not having any conviction by the HS or does not struggle to stop that would be an indication that they are not saved. If a person is truly saved there will be some fruit in that person’ life. There will be an heightened awareness of sin and a desire to know the Scriptures and please Christ.
What makes a person “saved” is not a person’s sincerity but the HS Who unties through baptism done by the HS that unities that person with the Spirit of Christ. Romans 8:9-11 is clear about this when Paul writes –
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
It is true and essential that a person have the correct understanding of his sin and Who Jesus is and what He did. He must believe this from his heart. Romans 10:9-10.
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
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mercygate
Guest
As I understand it, the way one can personally know for sure – for abso-tively posi-lutely SURE – that he is saved is that he has had a born-again experience in which he asked Christ into his heart, accept Him as Lord and Savior and experienced grace in an undeniable personal way. The grace of assurance is signed, sealed and delivered at that moment and can never be taken away. However he may in the future turn from that experience and reject it, the Lord will never close the gates of heaven to him. I am not saying this is what YOU believe but that is how I understand it from responsible OSAS people like Hank Hanegraaf and the late J. Vernon McGee.
So, when people like you say that a return to sin marks a person as never saved in the first place, how does that fit with the born-again **experience **that many people say is requisite for being truly born again.
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justasking4
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The problem with the “expierence” is that these emotional events are not the grounds for being saved. They could be the work of the Spirit or something else. If a person wants to know if they are truly saved they should not rely on expierence of these things or that they made a profession sometime in the past but are they at this moment pursuing Christ. Are they hungering for righteousness in their lives? Are they seeking to pattern their lives after Him? 2 Peter 1:4-11 is an excellent “criteria” to examine ourselves with if we truly are in the faith.
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jmcrae
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So, if the Sacraments aren’t a sure means of grace, and emotional experiences aren’t a sure means of grace, then how can anyone be sure they are saved at all, let alone once and for all?
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justasking4
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This is why i brought up 2 Peter 1:4-11. If a person is pursuing these principles they will gain some assurance. What matters is how that person is living the “life” now or not. Many people claim Christ, do all the rituals (i’m sure you know many) but show no fruit in their lives as pursing Christ. They profess to know Him but by their deeds they deny Him.Originally Posted by justasking4
The problem with the “expierence” is that these emotional events are not the grounds for being saved. They could be the work of the Spirit or something else. If a person wants to know if they are truly saved they should not rely on expierence of these things or that they made a profession sometime in the past but are they at this moment pursuing Christ. Are they hungering for righteousness in their lives? Are they seeking to pattern their lives after Him? 2 Peter 1:4-11 is an excellent “criteria” to examine ourselves with if we truly are in the faith.
jmcrae
So, if the Sacraments aren’t a sure means of grace, and emotional experiences aren’t a sure means of grace, then how can anyone be sure they are saved at all, let alone once and for all?
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MelanieAnne
Guest
The concept of Once Saved Always Saved itself means that salvation is unconditional. Unconditional means that once a person is “saved”, under this sort of theory, there is literally nothing they can do that will result in their loss of this salvation. It is considered a heresy by the Church.
This is why I said previously that “in practice” we
are fairly close together. Catholics reject OSAS as a heresy because while we believe Jesus is our Savior, and strive to do all we can to please God, it is still possible to separate yourself from God.
OSAS would appear to reach a similar place but by a different path. All denominations have some truth.
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justasking4
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What keeps a person in salvation i.e. saved? Ourselves by our own power and practice of the power of God?
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MelanieAnne
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Jesus saves us. We, through grievous unrepentant fault, can reject that salvation. If we do it consistently enough, salvation can be lost forever. If we fall down, but then later we reconcile ourselves to God, we renew that promise. It would be incorrect to assume that rejection of the theory of OSAS results in some sort of belief that we save ourselves if that is what you are getting at.
The idea that to be a Christian we need to “walk the walk” and not just “talk the talk” should be something we both agree to, correct? I’m looking to build bridges here, not seeks ways to perpetuate division. That’s why I said, in practice, we reach similar results in our lives, although we may take different paths of understanding to get to that similar result. I was once a protestant, although not a fundamentalist/evangelical sort. There’s a lot of mis-information out there about the Catholic church.
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mercygate
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OK. I see that clearly. But there ARE people who say that the experience is absolutely requisite for being born again and DEFINES the condition of salvation. But where this breaks down is in their recognition that living a godless life testifies against them. So the answer for them is not that the person has fallen away but that he was never saved in the first place. The corollary to OSAS is the personal ASSURANCE of salvation based on the initial confession.
It’s just not reasonable. Nor is it scriptural, nor do most Christians believe in perfect assurance. This is a subset of the OSAS group and the OSAS group is also a minority.
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ChristianKnight
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Wrong. I do not believe that it ends after I get baptized. It ends when I am dead, and then it starts in heaven, in hell, I doubt that I’d go to hell if I believened Jesus.
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