L
Lenten_ashes
Guest
Jews brought babies into the covenant.
Makes perfect sense for us to do the same. As salvation is of the Jews according to Jesus.
- Status
Makes perfect sense for us to do the same. As salvation is of the Jews according to Jesus.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Well, if you really want to embrace this, it probably proves too much.
Are you then a proponent of child marriage? Do you endorse the idea that when, say, a 13 year old boy accepts Jesus as his Personal Lord and Savior, you are recommending child marriage?
That’s kinda humorous, too.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Wannano. You said . . .
It’s NOT the “Acceptance” of Christ" that I find “humorous”.
It was the relationship and family growth analogy.
That was amusing to me because it said a lot theologically without saying a lot.
(Especially to the guy who thinks salvation is a moment ALONE–“You mean there is MORE that is NECESSARY!?”).
Its like the guy who likes his new girlfriend (“Yeah that’s a good situation that doesn’t require much from me”) . . . .
. . . . . but now he discovers that he is called to GROW in that relationship day to day AND it will take some WORK form him. AND Oh by the way . . . he might not be so sure about her family too (Wow! That requires a LOT from me! Yikes!").
I stand by my assertion. You may not think it is humorous, that’s OK by me.
You might say: “Well nobody I know thinks accepting Jesus into your heart is a moment ALONE type of thing without the day to day that comes after.”
Well tell that to the Baptists who gave me a “You were saved this day” card when I was a kid up at a camp campfire etc.
As to “accepting Jesus into your heart as “Personal Lord and Savior” let’s discuss the theology about that too.
I have no problem with “accepting Jesus into your heart as “personal Lord and Savior”. As a Catholic I do so frequently. We Catholics call that a “spiritual Communion”.
The PROBLEM with this language is it pretends this is the totality of what Jesus meant in John 3 when He said you must be “born again” (“born anew” or “born from above”).
Being “born again” is NOT reducible to “accepting Jesus into your heart”.
As far as your comment about infant Baptism
**Jesus is the Bridegroom.
Jesus’ Church is His bride (see Ephesians 5).**
If a baby of an Evangelical dies and goes to Heaven he enters into the Wedding Feast of the Lamb (is THAT “arranged marriage” OK with you?).
But as a Christian here on earth, Baptized babies are already entering into the Wedding Feast in a sense. And after he makes his first Communion even more so.
Do you have an issue with this “arranged marriage” motif in Christianity? Not one AGAINST one’s will but in union with it (and parents can speak on behalf of their children authoritatively? "as for me and my house,we will serve the Lord" – Joshua 24:15).
Do you have a problem with Old Testament people Covenanting their baby boys to the bridegroom God via circumcision?
As far as Catholics who have Baptized their infants . . . the NEED for THEM to GROW is there for them too!
AND the NEED for them to discover their whole family is there as well (we catechize our children concerning the Communion of Saints—their BRETHREN in Christ. And we catechize them about their Spiritual Mother—The Blessed Virgin Mary).
Hold on just a second there!
It’s NOT the “Acceptance” of Christ" that I find “humorous”.
It was the relationship and family growth analogy.
That was amusing to me because it said a lot theologically without saying a lot.
(Especially to the guy who thinks salvation is a moment ALONE–“You mean there is MORE that is NECESSARY!?”).
Its like the guy who likes his new girlfriend (“Yeah that’s a good situation that doesn’t require much from me”) . . . .
. . . . . but now he discovers that he is called to GROW in that relationship day to day AND it will take some WORK form him. AND Oh by the way . . . he might not be so sure about her family too (Wow! That requires a LOT from me! Yikes!").
I stand by my assertion. You may not think it is humorous, that’s OK by me.
You might say: “Well nobody I know thinks accepting Jesus into your heart is a moment ALONE type of thing without the day to day that comes after.”
Well tell that to the Baptists who gave me a “You were saved this day” card when I was a kid up at a camp campfire etc.
As to “accepting Jesus into your heart as “Personal Lord and Savior” let’s discuss the theology about that too.
I have no problem with “accepting Jesus into your heart as “personal Lord and Savior”. As a Catholic I do so frequently. We Catholics call that a “spiritual Communion”.
The PROBLEM with this language is it pretends this is the totality of what Jesus meant in John 3 when He said you must be “born again” (“born anew” or “born from above”).
Being “born again” is NOT reducible to “accepting Jesus into your heart”.
Reducing “being born again” down to merely “accepting Jesus into your heart” is NOT what Jesus was referring to in John chapter 3.
As far as your comment about infant Baptism
There is an element of truth there.
**Jesus is the Bridegroom.
Jesus’ Church is His bride (see Ephesians 5).**
If a baby of an Evangelical dies and goes to Heaven he enters into the Wedding Feast of the Lamb (is THAT “arranged marriage” OK with you?).
But as a Christian here on earth, Baptized babies are already entering into the Wedding Feast in a sense. And after he makes his first Communion even more so.
Do you have an issue with this “arranged marriage” motif in Christianity? Not one AGAINST one’s will but in union with it (and parents can speak on behalf of their children authoritatively? "as for me and my house,we will serve the Lord" – Joshua 24:15).
Do you have a problem with Old Testament people Covenanting their baby boys to the bridegroom God via circumcision?
Do you affirm their maker is their “husband” or does the Bridegroom imagery not resonate with you?
**Do you have a problem with this? ** I don’t seem to understand your objection. Please clarify it.
As far as Catholics who have Baptized their infants . . . the NEED for THEM to GROW is there for them too!
AND the NEED for them to discover their whole family is there as well (we catechize our children concerning the Communion of Saints—their BRETHREN in Christ. And we catechize them about their Spiritual Mother—The Blessed Virgin Mary).
W
Wannano
Guest
All I am pointing out is that I find the comment to have an element of sacrilege. I also pointed out that my comment wasn’t funny to me either. What is interesting is the backlash!
L
ltwin
Guest
I brought up Romans 10:9-17 to the OP who asked what evangelical Protestants meant when they say “I accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior.” It was you who asked me how this related to faith alone and the necessity of works. I hope you’re not suggesting I’m using Romans 10:9-17 as a proof text for faith alone.
I cited Romans 10 because the passage succinctly describes what “accepting Jesus . . .” means to evangelicals, which basically is when someone who does not know the Lord calls upon His name. It is a person’s initial act of faith and profession of that faith. It illustrates the biblical imperative to not only call on Jesus and identify with Him publicly but to truly believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and God.
Obviously, we don’t treat Romans 10 in isolation, and there is an entire order of salvation that can be expanded upon and fleshed out from Scripture, but the OP asked what this specific terminology referred to in Evangelicalism. To sum it up: it is when a person initially comes to faith in Christ, their moment of conversion from unbeliever to follower of Christ.
It is necessary that we profess our faith, but such profession is not a meritorious work. We are justified by grace through our faith, not by anything we can do or say (Ephesians 2:8-9).This faith must be professed, but again, such profession does not merit us God’s grace nor does it merit us the gift of faith nor does it merit us forgiveness of sins, etc.
It is necessary in that no one can believe unless they hear the message.
Yes, we are still saved by grace through faith alone. There are many means of grace that God makes available to us (preaching of the Gospel being one of them), but all of them are means of grace in which God gives and strengthens our faith. It is freely offered and freely received. We do not and cannot earn this divine favor.
A
acarlson
Guest
Sounds like some personal action is required, hmm?
C
Cathoholic
Guest
**Ephesians 2:8-9 does not teach justification by faith ALONE. **
(Apart from the fact the verses don’t SAY we are justified by faith ALONE here is part of the reason why . . . . )
Itwin. You said (concerning the grace of justification):
But looking past this for a moment . . . .
And we affirm we cannot “EARN” grace on our own too.
(And we don’t REDUCE justification to a moment ALONE either).
“Faith” doesn’t “EARN” justification either Itwin. (But that doesn’t mean you don’t NEED faith to be saved does it?)
COUNCIL OF TRENT . . . . none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.
ROMANS 11:6 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Itwin. You said concerning justification and Ephesians chapter 2
Itwin Ephesians 2:8-9 concerns the initial moment of salvation (but by absolutizing this moment, you are forced to ignore OTHER teachings concerning justification).
Catholics affirm our initial justification is unmerited. OK?
CCC 1308b . . . we must not . . . forget that the baptismal grace is a grace of free, unmerited election and does not need “ratification” to become effective. . . .
But once we are justified, . . . once we have God’s Divine life within us . . . “to whom much is given, much is REQUIRED!” (Luke 12:36)
Notice it is **NOT **. . . “to whom much is given, much is DESIRED!”
And God’s Divine life IS “MUCH”. Infinitely “much”.
Let’s look at Ephesians 2:8-9 in context. First what Ephesians 2 DOESN’T teach (You and I agree on this aspect Itwin).
NOT God the Father to God the Son in Ephesians 2: “Well Son. Humanity has been sooooo utterly righteous despite living in the passions of their flesh. You have just GOT to go down there and save them!”
NO! This is NOT what happened.
That would be “works righteousness”. (Itwin. You and I BOTH condemn even the possibility of “works righteousness” or “Pelagianism”).
OK. What would be true then?
While the world was at enmity with God, He so loved THE WORLD (notice it is not just the “elect” He loved) that He gave His only begotten Son for but “the WORLD”.
TITUS 3:3-7 3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by men and hating one another; 4 but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
Ephesians 2 teaches us the same thing. God sent His Son, even when we were dead through our trespasses to save us.
EPHESIANS 2:3-7 3 Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Now for the MOMENT this is applied to us . . . .
EPHESIANS 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.
Now for the ongoing process . . . .
(But this justifying grace is not limited to a mere moment.)
EPHESIANS 2:10 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
More on the next post . . . .
(Apart from the fact the verses don’t SAY we are justified by faith ALONE here is part of the reason why . . . . )
Itwin. You said (concerning the grace of justification):
First of all, grace is MORE than “Divine favor”.
But looking past this for a moment . . . .
Catholics AFFIRM we cannot not initially earn grace.
And we affirm we cannot “EARN” grace on our own too.
(And we don’t REDUCE justification to a moment ALONE either).
“Faith” doesn’t “EARN” justification either Itwin. (But that doesn’t mean you don’t NEED faith to be saved does it?)
COUNCIL OF TRENT . . . . none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.
ROMANS 11:6 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Itwin. You said concerning justification and Ephesians chapter 2
This is a partial truth. That concerns the initial justification (and the faith and works provided is part of God’s prevenient grace–again a grace).
Itwin Ephesians 2:8-9 concerns the initial moment of salvation (but by absolutizing this moment, you are forced to ignore OTHER teachings concerning justification).
Catholics affirm our initial justification is unmerited. OK?
CCC 1308b . . . we must not . . . forget that the baptismal grace is a grace of free, unmerited election and does not need “ratification” to become effective. . . .
But once we are justified, . . . once we have God’s Divine life within us . . . “to whom much is given, much is REQUIRED!” (Luke 12:36)
Notice it is **NOT **. . . “to whom much is given, much is DESIRED!”
And God’s Divine life IS “MUCH”. Infinitely “much”.
Let’s look at Ephesians 2:8-9 in context. First what Ephesians 2 DOESN’T teach (You and I agree on this aspect Itwin).
NOT God the Father to God the Son in Ephesians 2: “Well Son. Humanity has been sooooo utterly righteous despite living in the passions of their flesh. You have just GOT to go down there and save them!”
NO! This is NOT what happened.
That would be “works righteousness”. (Itwin. You and I BOTH condemn even the possibility of “works righteousness” or “Pelagianism”).
OK. What would be true then?
While the world was at enmity with God, He so loved THE WORLD (notice it is not just the “elect” He loved) that He gave His only begotten Son for but “the WORLD”.
TITUS 3:3-7 3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by men and hating one another; 4 but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
Ephesians 2 teaches us the same thing. God sent His Son, even when we were dead through our trespasses to save us.
EPHESIANS 2:3-7 3 Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Now for the MOMENT this is applied to us . . . .
EPHESIANS 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.
Now for the ongoing process . . . .
(But this justifying grace is not limited to a mere moment.)
EPHESIANS 2:10 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
More on the next post . . . .
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Ephesians 2:8-9 etc. also DOES MEAN (in context) we were created or made for good works
(in the context of that grace. That’s why elsewhere St. Paul can talk of “faith working in love” elsewhere–see Gal. 5:6 for that).
Let’s look at Ephesians 2:10 again.
EPHESIANS 2:10 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
And these grace workings WITHIN us is COME from . . . . Jesus! (Notice we and these good works are HIS WORKmanship)
(So they are not your mere “works righteousness” works “lest any man boast” but we DO “boast in Christ” 2nd Corinthians 10:17).
Let’s go on in Ephesians and see Christ working IN us and through us re-emphasized . . . .
EPHESIANS 3:20-21 20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
That’s WHY once you are a “new creation” you cannot “boast” about yourself, but you can “boast” of Christ IN YOU.
You CAN “Glory in the cross” which we have been made partakers of through our Baptism (Romans 6:3-5).
Then as a child of God, you MUST “sew” in the Spirit! (Works. Works for the right reasons and all of that to be sure. Works initiated by and animated by the Holy Spirit ABSOLUTELY. But you still MUST “WORK out your salvation”. And the reason you now CAN is because God is at WORK in you).
We MUST sew (it is not an option and it IS salvific). Not on our own but IN the Spirit.
GALATIANS 6:8-10, 14-15 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith. . . . 14 But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15** For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.**
(But we CAN eventually REJECT these graces with disastrous consequences—see 2nd Corinthians 6:1 for example and MANY other places where St. Paul and others warn us).
Once justified initially . . . we have God at work IN US and through us (not merely “covering us” but MORE than a mere covering).
These WORKS in the Spirit are a grace too (not just faith)!
But it is not an “either/or” “faith vrs. works” situation.
It is a “yes/and”. A grace faith AND grace works paradigm (and also the grace of hope).
Trent tells us (quoting Revelation) we must continue to grow in justification (“he who has been justified, let him be justified further still”).
This NEEDS to occur. You CAN reject this (and refuse to bear fruit) but if you choose to do so, it is potentially to your own peril.
God at WORK IN US . . . . IS a GRACE too (not just faith).
Protestants often want to assert grace is God’s favor (you did it up above here Itwin).
And that is TRUE (see CCC 1996)! But grace isn’t MERELY God’s favor (This is a big difference).
Grace is ALSO a participation in God’s own Divine LIFE . . . . which is WHY some “works” CAN be a grace too. See CCC 1997)
That’s WHY in Christ; we become “partakers of the Divine nature”.
2nd PETER 1:2-3a, 4 2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life . . . . 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.
That’s WHY St. John tells us we ARE God’s children.
1st JOHN 3:1-2a 1 See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him . . .
And what happens if the Ephesians (or us) don’t CONTINUE (in grace) to walk in good works?
Let’s find out . . . .
(in the context of that grace. That’s why elsewhere St. Paul can talk of “faith working in love” elsewhere–see Gal. 5:6 for that).
Let’s look at Ephesians 2:10 again.
EPHESIANS 2:10 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
And these grace workings WITHIN us is COME from . . . . Jesus! (Notice we and these good works are HIS WORKmanship)
(So they are not your mere “works righteousness” works “lest any man boast” but we DO “boast in Christ” 2nd Corinthians 10:17).
Let’s go on in Ephesians and see Christ working IN us and through us re-emphasized . . . .
EPHESIANS 3:20-21 20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
That’s WHY once you are a “new creation” you cannot “boast” about yourself, but you can “boast” of Christ IN YOU.
You CAN “Glory in the cross” which we have been made partakers of through our Baptism (Romans 6:3-5).
Then as a child of God, you MUST “sew” in the Spirit! (Works. Works for the right reasons and all of that to be sure. Works initiated by and animated by the Holy Spirit ABSOLUTELY. But you still MUST “WORK out your salvation”. And the reason you now CAN is because God is at WORK in you).
We MUST sew (it is not an option and it IS salvific). Not on our own but IN the Spirit.
GALATIANS 6:8-10, 14-15 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith. . . . 14 But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15** For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.**
(But we CAN eventually REJECT these graces with disastrous consequences—see 2nd Corinthians 6:1 for example and MANY other places where St. Paul and others warn us).
Once justified initially . . . we have God at work IN US and through us (not merely “covering us” but MORE than a mere covering).
These WORKS in the Spirit are a grace too (not just faith)!
But it is not an “either/or” “faith vrs. works” situation.
It is a “yes/and”. A grace faith AND grace works paradigm (and also the grace of hope).
Trent tells us (quoting Revelation) we must continue to grow in justification (“he who has been justified, let him be justified further still”).
This NEEDS to occur. You CAN reject this (and refuse to bear fruit) but if you choose to do so, it is potentially to your own peril.
God at WORK IN US . . . . IS a GRACE too (not just faith).
Protestants often want to assert grace is God’s favor (you did it up above here Itwin).
And that is TRUE (see CCC 1996)! But grace isn’t MERELY God’s favor (This is a big difference).
Grace is ALSO a participation in God’s own Divine LIFE . . . . which is WHY some “works” CAN be a grace too. See CCC 1997)
That’s WHY in Christ; we become “partakers of the Divine nature”.
2nd PETER 1:2-3a, 4 2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life . . . . 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.
That’s WHY St. John tells us we ARE God’s children.
1st JOHN 3:1-2a 1 See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him . . .
And what happens if the Ephesians (or us) don’t CONTINUE (in grace) to walk in good works?
Let’s find out . . . .
C
Cathoholic
Guest
And what happens if the Ephesians (or us) don’t CONTINUE (in grace) to walk in good works?
Fortunately we don’t have to speculate. Providentially Jesus Himself tells us.
The Ephesians were warned by Christ (through St. John) that their “Lampstand” will be “removed” if they don’t “WORK” too.
REVELATION 2:1-5 1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: 'The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false; 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
MATTHEW 3:8-9 8 Bear fruit that befits repentance, 9 and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.
After that salvation moment in Ephesians . . . . salvation continues as . . . . a process . . . a LIFELONG process.
You are saved.
Then you must continue being saved Itwin.
And after you are a child of God (by grace), you MUST DO something with those “talents” or the grace UNDESERVINGLY GIVEN TO YOU (see Matthew 25:14-30) or be cast out into the darkness where there is wailing or gnashing of teeth.
1st CORINTHIANS 7:19 19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.
So I have no issue with what you AFFIRM here Itwin. But my difference with you concerning justification is you don’t AFFIRM ENOUGH of the Scriptures.
Fortunately we don’t have to speculate. Providentially Jesus Himself tells us.
The Ephesians were warned by Christ (through St. John) that their “Lampstand” will be “removed” if they don’t “WORK” too.
REVELATION 2:1-5 1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: 'The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false; 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
MATTHEW 3:8-9 8 Bear fruit that befits repentance, 9 and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.
After that salvation moment in Ephesians . . . . salvation continues as . . . . a process . . . a LIFELONG process.
You are saved.
Then you must continue being saved Itwin.
And after you are a child of God (by grace), you MUST DO something with those “talents” or the grace UNDESERVINGLY GIVEN TO YOU (see Matthew 25:14-30) or be cast out into the darkness where there is wailing or gnashing of teeth.
1st CORINTHIANS 7:19 19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.
So I have no issue with what you AFFIRM here Itwin. But my difference with you concerning justification is you don’t AFFIRM ENOUGH of the Scriptures.
Never cared for the phrase. Received Christ as Lord and Savior? Yes,the Holy Spirit’s work in me. “Accept” sound more like my work.
Jon
R
Reuben_J
Guest
I agree and to me, much of the argument about the phrase is in the semantic.
I do use this phrase in describing my endeavor to be a good Christian, and my response to follow and obedient to Christ’s teaching and personal holiness.
I found it rather controversial among Catholic posters in CAF and so I am not keen in discussing about it.
Looking at it positively, I think it is a good thing. By the action of the Holy Spirit, we are able to love Jesus tangibly for who (Lord) and what (Savior) he is and therefore this love dictates and leads us in holiness in our daily lives.
How could that not be personal? How could the motivation and love that we have for Jesus is not personal; and how could our response for him is not personal?
In Catholicism, there is nothing wrong in having a personal response to Jesus as that does not negate the corporate relationship we have with the Church and God too.
I believe it is the usage of the phrase by Protestants which may be different, so it could be a problem for those Catholic who converted from Protestantism who know what it means to them (the latter).
- Status