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traillius
Guest
Accepting Jesus as your personal lord and saviour is a choice, and therefore an act of works, as well as faith.
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NDfan
Guest
You accept Jesus as Lord and Savior because you believe HE is who HE claimed to be and that HE died for your sins. That acceptance is what constitutes your Faith. It’s not a work it’s a reception of GOD’s grace. The result of your Faith is producing good works.
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traillius
Guest
To believe is a choice as well, and therefore and act of works.
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ckempston
Guest
Maybe there’s a little background to this discussion, so forgive me for jumping in. Also been a while since I posted…so, hi everybody.
First, this claim that faith is not a work, it’s a reception of God’s grace is a bit disingenuous. Faith is not merely mental assent or acceptance as you are suggesting. This whole false dilemma that it’s either faith or works needs to be revealed for the falsehood that it is. Faith without works is dead. Period. In Acts 19:2, Paul asks Gentile believers:
**“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” **
Perfect scenario. Paul asks if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed. He’s obviously speaking of what should have been their salvation experience, because you receive the Holy Spirit when you are “saved” (John 3, Acts 2:38, Romans 6:3, 1 Cor 12:13, 1 Peter 3:21). What then does Paul ask them when they say, “No”???
**So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. **
This question makes no sense unless “Belief” and “Baptism” were synonymous according to the Apostle Paul, and belief constituted much more than just a mental agreement. The common Protestant practice of separating “works” and “faith” is contrary to New Testament teaching at every turn, and this is just one example.
You are saved when you have faith, but that faith is constituted of precisely nothing unless it is comprised of “works” (repentance, confession, baptism). The point of salvation, according to Paul, is synonymous with valid baptism. Baptism is a “work” but it does not merit your salvation. It is, however, a requirement for salvation, just like faith, confession, and repentance. The totality is required, not “faith alone,” and this is how the Jews/Gentiles who were preached to, and the other early christians understood it.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Amen:thumbsup:
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Peter_J
Guest
I agree with much of what you’re saying, ckempston, but I don’t think it’s correct to say that faith is comprised of works. Rather, works are the fruit of faith.
Also I don’t see how it’s at all disingenuous to say that faith is not a work.
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traillius
Guest
Faith is a choice. Choosing is an action. Actions are works.
a=b and b=c and c=d therefore a=d.
Even if faith and grace are both gifts from God, you have to be willing to accept them.
A gift not received and opened is a useless gift.
To accept the gift is an act of will, and therefore a work of humanity. so as James says,
faith without works is dead, because there is no faith without the work of receiving it.
When you get a job, you may be hired because the boss likes you, but you keep your job by doing it well. Ability to do your job does not merit you getting the job, a boss’ goodwill does that, but it is a requirement for keeping it. Salvation is the same. Saint paul says
" work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. " I await an eager protestant explanation of how works are not required, based on this quote from scripture.
a=b and b=c and c=d therefore a=d.
Even if faith and grace are both gifts from God, you have to be willing to accept them.
A gift not received and opened is a useless gift.
To accept the gift is an act of will, and therefore a work of humanity. so as James says,
faith without works is dead, because there is no faith without the work of receiving it.
When you get a job, you may be hired because the boss likes you, but you keep your job by doing it well. Ability to do your job does not merit you getting the job, a boss’ goodwill does that, but it is a requirement for keeping it. Salvation is the same. Saint paul says
" work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. " I await an eager protestant explanation of how works are not required, based on this quote from scripture.
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ckempston
Guest
Faith without works is dead. True? If Abraham never demonstrated his faith by obedience, we never would have heard of him. I clearly demonstrated that “believing,” to the Apostle Paul, was synonymous with “doing” (Acts 19). The two cannot be separated.
I’m making that statement based on the convoluted definitions sometimes assigned to faith and works. It is disingenous because sola fide Protestants equivocate; the terms are re-defined at will without rhyme or reason. Their inconsistency is further seen in some things that are quite clearly works, such as confession of Jesus as Lord, or when some non-Biblical “sinner’s prayer” is required, but they still say these are not works (they are confused) and they are saved by faith alone.
It’s quite simple to demonstrate a sola fidist’s error with a line of questioning that will undoubtedly run thusly:
Questioner: When were you saved?
Sola Fidist: When I believed.
Questioner: So you’re saved by faith alone?
Sola Fidist: Yes. Salvation is not by works.
Questioner: How did that go exactly?
Sola Fidist: Well, I got up in front of the church, confessed Jesus is Lord, said the sinner’s prayer, and I was saved.
Questioner: Wait a second, did you have to confess and say the sinner’s prayer?
Sola Fidist: What, I’m confused?
Questioner: It’s not a difficult question.
Sola Fidist: Uuuuuhhhh…
Questioner: Could you be saved without making a public confession?
Sola Fidist: Of course not. Romans 10:9 says to confess and believe.
Questioner: Ok, but you just said you were saved by faith alone, and confession is a work, but now you’re saying you had to believe, pray and confess Jesus is Lord. At what point were you regenerated?
Sola Fidist: Uhhhh…when…I…believed…maybe?
Questioner: Romans 10:9 says you have to confess and believe, but you’re saying you were saved when you believed. Which is it?
Sola Fidist: I’m saved by faith alone! (holds hands over ears and runs away)
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cheese_sdc
Guest
And for his second trick, he’ll teach the strawman to dance!
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Peter_J
Guest
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Peter_J
Guest
You think you’ve shown that?
So do we even have two seperate words, “believing” and “doing”, if they’re synonymous? Why not just merge them into one?
May I ask which denomination you belong to (or most closely identify with)? I know there’s a lot of diversity of belief among Protestants, but even by that standard your statements seem peculiar.
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traillius
Guest
When Jesus talks about how to inherit eternal life, rarely does he say " just believe and have faith ." Most of the time its about obey, love, give, trust, honor, or prepare." All of these things are active actions, i.e. works. justification notwithstanding, sanctification is what is required to get into heaven, this is achieved by not only believing, but also by doing. By obeying, loving, giving, trusting, honoring, and preparing. You are not earning heaven, you are doing the required actions for heaven. It says " not of works lest anyone should boast " This doesn’t mean that you should do nothing and thus not be able to boast. Rather that you should do whatever it takes with humility, so that you choose not to boast. God won’t say to you on that day " you had a profession of faith, welcome home " He will say " come ye blessed of my Father, for you did my father’s will. " Faith produces works, works lead to heaven. Don’t skip the " middleman and go right from faith to heaven. You need God, He needs your devotion and obedience, as well as mercy, all works, based in faith but completed in deeds.
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John7
Guest
reminds me of a verse
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
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ckempston
Guest
Are you suggesting there are no words in the New Testament that are synonymous, despite the fact that different words are used??? Odd. Paul did, and I did indeed demonstrate it with my Acts 19 example.
My “standard” matches orthodoxy exactly. My church happens to be those commonly known as the ICOC.
Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words. . . . Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith? Clement of Rome
Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James. Origen
“He that believes in the Son has everlasting life.” Is it enough, then, to believe in the Son,’ someone will say, ‘in order to have everlasting life?’ By no means! Listen to Christ declare this himself when he says, ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord! Lord!” shall enter into the kingdom of heaven’; and the blasphemy against the Spirit is alone sufficient to cast him into hell. But why should I speak of a part of our teaching? For if a man believe rightly in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, but does not live rightly, his faith will avail him nothing toward salvation" John Chrysostom
Did you read the verses I provided from Acts 19? Paul asked some pretty simple questions:
Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?
The answer was no. What was Paul’s next question:
Then, in whose name were you baptized?
Belief without action is no belief at all. As I also pointed out, the definition of “faith” has been convoluted to simply mean mental affirmation. This is not what it has ever meant. That is called gnosticism.
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ckempston
Guest
How so? I’ve personally had similar conversations. If you’d like to point out the error in my reasoning or where I misrepresented the ridiculous position of some Protestants, feel free to do so.Yes, of course.
That seems a little disingenuous to me.
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Peter_J
Guest
No, I was being a little facetious.
Yes, there are some pairs of words that are synonymous, like “suspenders” and “braces”, but “believing” and “doing” aren’t such a pair.
Thanks, I was just wondering. (Incidentally, I was entertaining the possibility that you were really a “traditionalist Catholics” like the SSPX or SSPV.
)I did, but I don’t see how they show that “believing” and “doing” are synonymous – or (to get back to the original question) that faith is comprised of works. As I said before, I believe that good works flow from faith.
But I guess we at least agree on one thing: that faith and works are inseperable.
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ckempston
Guest
Paul pointed to a specific point - the point of salvation. He referred to this point as both “belief” and “baptism” within two sentences of each other. Perhaps synonymous is a poor choice of words, but Paul did use belief and baptism to refer to the same event. Maybe synchronous would be more clear?No, I was being a little facetious.
Yes, there are some pairs of words that are synonymous, like “suspenders” and “braces”, but “believing” and “doing” aren’t such a pair.
Thanks, I was just wondering. (Incidentally, I was entertaining the possibility that you were really a “traditionalist Catholics” like the SSPX or SSPV.
I understand. I also agree that good works, in a sense, are a “fruit” of our faith; however, people do good works all the time without faith. Again, maybe a poor choice of words, or just a semantical argument, but I’m not saying that faith is comprised solely of works, or that works guarantee faith, but that part of faith is doing works just as part of making a pie is baking it.
Very good.But I guess we at least agree on one thing: that faith and works are inseperable.
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Aleii
Guest
To those that say belief is a choice, let me ask you:
Can you decide to honestly believe that your monitor is a cat?
Can you decide to honestly believe that Zeus is real?
Personally I can’t chose to believe either of those things because they don’t make sense to me. I can say the words but it wouldn’t be true, because my brain won’t let me believe in something that doesn’t make sense to me. Sure, I can choose actions which may possibly lead to a greater chance of feeling the above might be remotely possible (very unlikely that even that would happen), but the belief itself I can’t just will/choose.
For those that say that belief in God is a choice, can you therefore honestly chose to believe the above? If so, how? If not, then how can you say belief in God is a choice?
Maybe a rephrasing would get the point home. If you think that you can choose to believe in God, can you, a faithful Catholic, decide right now to not believe in God? Can you honestly say right here right now that you don’t believe in God, and not be lying?
If not, then how is belief a choice?
Can you decide to honestly believe that your monitor is a cat?
Can you decide to honestly believe that Zeus is real?
Personally I can’t chose to believe either of those things because they don’t make sense to me. I can say the words but it wouldn’t be true, because my brain won’t let me believe in something that doesn’t make sense to me. Sure, I can choose actions which may possibly lead to a greater chance of feeling the above might be remotely possible (very unlikely that even that would happen), but the belief itself I can’t just will/choose.
For those that say that belief in God is a choice, can you therefore honestly chose to believe the above? If so, how? If not, then how can you say belief in God is a choice?
Maybe a rephrasing would get the point home. If you think that you can choose to believe in God, can you, a faithful Catholic, decide right now to not believe in God? Can you honestly say right here right now that you don’t believe in God, and not be lying?
If not, then how is belief a choice?
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ckempston
Guest
Maybe I’m misreading you, but you seem to have missed the point that Biblical “belief” is not simply mental assent, but an active trust. It IS a choice to trust someone. If you’re dangling from a bridge and I reach out my hand to help you, it is a very different thing for you to intellectually know that you could take my hand and save yourself, and to actually take my hand and save yourself. One saves you. One does not.
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