According to Catholics, is Christ present in Lutheran Eucharist?

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Lutherans believe in Consubstantiation (I think). Whatever that means, do Catholics believe it is so in Lutheran Eucharist? According to the Catholic Church, the Lutherans do not have valid Holy Orders and thus lack ministers for valid Sacraments.

Thanks
 
PathDiagnosis said:
Lutherans believe in Consubstantiation (I think). Whatever that means, do Catholics believe it is so in Lutheran Eucharist? According to the Catholic Church, the Lutherans do not have valid Holy Orders and thus lack ministers for valid Sacraments.

Thanks
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Lutherans reject consunstantiation (on the same grounds they reject Transubstantiation).
That said, the Catholic Church, as you state, views our sacrament as invalid on the grounds that our clergy are outside apostolic succession.

However, an intersting quote from Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger:
“I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.(166)”
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Jon
 
PathDiagnosis said:
Lutherans believe in Consubstantiation (I think). Whatever that means, do Catholics believe it is so in Lutheran Eucharist? According to the Catholic Church, the Lutherans do not have valid Holy Orders and thus lack ministers for valid Sacraments.

Thanks
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Yes, the Lutherans do not have a valid Eucharist because they do not have Apostolic Succession.
 
No. They have no orders, so they can not confect the Eucharist, and a deviant doctrine of the Eucharist to boot.
 
JonNC said:
Lutherans reject consunstantiation (on the same grounds they reject Transubstantiation).
That said, the Catholic Church, as you state, views our sacrament as invalid on the grounds that our clergy are outside apostolic succession.

However, an intersting quote from Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger:

Jon
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Wow. So according to JCR, does the bread become body for them? And if not, how does it grant salvation?

ICXC NIKA
 
According to Catholics, do Lutherans still receive whatever grace they believe to be receiving from Lutheran Eucharist?
 
Communion may mean something different to Lutherans and other mainline protenstant demonimations. They are not valid Eucharist as Catholics know it, that is, transubstantiation or the real presence of Jesus in the appearance of bread and wine. Nevertheless, I do not think we can say that their congregations are not in communion with each other and with Christ in some way. Partly that is determined by desire and Faith. Consider our own “Spiritual communion”.
 
PathDiagnosis said:
Lutherans believe in Consubstantiation (I think). Whatever that means, do Catholics believe it is so in Lutheran Eucharist? According to the Catholic Church, the Lutherans do not have valid Holy Orders and thus lack ministers for valid Sacraments.

Thanks
Click to expand...
Consubstantiation: during the sacrament, the “substance” of the body and blood of Christ, upon the words of consecration, become mystically present, alongside the substance of the bread and wine.

Transubstantiation is similar: during the sacrament, the “substance” of the body and blood of Christ, upon the words of consecration, is all that remains, mystically speaking, in spite of the fact that mere bread and wine is all that is perceptible to the senses.

I think ML embraced consubstantiation but perhaps JonNC is right. I am still not 100% sure.

What I do know, with certainty, is the fact that Martin Luther definitely came to reject the idea of the Eucharist being a genuine sacrifice of the Mass, which, in my opinion is difficult to reconcile with the fact that he believed that the Eucharist, upon the words of consecration, truly became Jesus’ Body and Blood.:confused:
 
PathDiagnosis said:
Lutherans believe in Consubstantiation (I think). Whatever that means, do Catholics believe it is so in Lutheran Eucharist? According to the Catholic Church, the Lutherans do not have valid Holy Orders and thus lack ministers for valid Sacraments.

Thanks
Click to expand...
Keeping in mind that Martin Luther, as he transitioned from an Augustinian priest to a non-Catholic Christian (something he initially didn’t want) - didn’t believe in the necessity of a ministerial priesthood, so in a sense, ML eventually came to agree with the CC regarding the need for valid holy orders.
 
JonNC said:
And yet, there are Lutherans in Scandinavia who, from the time of the Reformation, have maintained apostolic succession. :hmmm:

Jon
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But what does this really mean? Were there validly ordained Bishops at the time of the Reformation who became Lutheran and ordained other Bishops (with that same understanding) till the present?
 
PathDiagnosis said:
Lutherans believe in Consubstantiation (I think). Whatever that means, do Catholics believe it is so in Lutheran Eucharist? According to the Catholic Church, the Lutherans do not have valid Holy Orders and thus lack ministers for valid Sacraments.

Thanks
Click to expand...
No of course the Lutherans do not have valid Eucharist. No priesthood means no Eucharist and the priesthood is the first thing Luther attacked. The point our pope was making is that we cannot deny Christ is present in any gathering of sincere Christians, in the sense of his promise “wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in My name,” but that in no way is the same as the real, sacramental presence of Christ in the substance of the bread and wine consecrated by a validly ordained priest in the succession from the apostles.
 
JonNC said:
And yet, there are Lutherans in Scandinavia who, from the time of the Reformation, have maintained apostolic succession. :hmmm:

Jon
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Hi Jon!

They claim apostolic succession, but it is unclear if they actually have it. My understanding is their clergy are conditionally ordained in those cases where they become Catholic priests. This applies to Sweden and Finland mostly. In the case of the US, there is no question (for us).
 
puzzleannie said:
No of course the Lutherans do not have valid Eucharist. No priesthood means no Eucharist and the priesthood is the first thing Luther attacked. The point our pope was making is that we cannot deny Christ is present in any gathering of sincere Christians, in the sense of his promise “wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in My name,” but that in no way is the same as the real, sacramental presence of Christ in the substance of the bread and wine consecrated by a validly ordained priest in the succession from the apostles.
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I do not think that was his point at all, else he could have just said - “wherever two or three…”. He was speaking here specifically of the Eucharist, and he and the Lutheran bishop the letter was addressed to, both understood that. The Cardinal had too much respect for his Lutheran friend to speak in such a patronizing way.
No, I believe he was indicating that, while not valid in the Catholic/Orthodox sense, he believes there is more to the Lutheran Eucharist than simply a nothing. More to it than mere bread and wine.

Cardinal Ratzinger’s comments were in fact in a letter to a friend, and letters to friends to not make doctrine (something Catholics ought to be aware of when they cite Luther’s famous “sin boldly” letter to Melanchthon). It can be made out to be more than it is, and less than it is. The Catholic Church is far from reciprocal agreement with Lutherans regarding the validity of our clergy and sacrament (we do recognize yours), but as the Lutheran/Catholic joint statement, The Church as Koinonia of Salvation: Its Structures and Ministries shows, its position on our clergy is far different now than 100 years ago.

Jon
 
lutherlic said:
Hi Jon!

They claim apostolic succession, but it is unclear if they actually have it. My understanding is their clergy are conditionally ordained in those cases where they become Catholic priests. This applies to Sweden and Finland mostly. In the case of the US, there is no question (for us).
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Oh, there’s no doubt in my mind that the CC does not accept their claim. I’m surprised that these ordinations would even be “conditional”. That they can trace the lines is indesputable, but for the CC there’s more to it than tracing lines.

For those in the US, the ELCA claims it through the TEC, which claims it through “Dutch Touch”, etc. All that is irrelevent to the CC. And there are some smaller Lutheran groups - ALCC, etc. - that also have firm claims of it.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Oh, there’s no doubt in my mind that the CC does not accept their claim. I’m surprised that these ordinations would even be “conditional”. That they can trace the lines is indesputable, but for the CC there’s more to it than tracing lines.

For those in the US, the ELCA claims it through the TEC, which claims it through “Dutch Touch”, etc. All that is irrelevent to the CC. And there are some smaller Lutheran groups - ALCC, etc. - that also have firm claims of it.

Jon
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Faith is seen through the eyes of the believer. The OP appears to be a call to judgement in my opinion. Let me ask you this. Do you see or believe Christ is present in the Eucharist in your Lutheran church through your eyes?🙂
 
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