ACLU sues state police

[Jeffrey]

Hopefully the ACLU loses this one… wish thier was a law against them collecting lawyer fees… bet they wouldn’t be filing as many lawsuits.

This is a new suit in which there was no decision. What are you talking about “yesterday”? If who are claiming I lied, then please specify where and cease the vague accusations. I was only addressing the PC issue.

 

[pnewton]

Speaking Spanish is against no law. Speaking Spanish is also no indicator of “illegal” status. The infraction involved had nothing to do with them. So where is the PC? This officer went over and beyond in my opinion.

I didn’t say speaking Spanish indicated anything. I said that they did not understand any English. These are too different things. Not speaking or understanding any English in a group of 14 is a good sign that they are all 14 not native born, legal or otherwise. Did you miss the part about not one of the 14 had any ID? Combine the two. Something does not have to be against the law to constitute PC, BTW. For example, a man may have legally purchased all the proper and legal components to manufacture methamphetamine. If purchased in sufficent quantities, a judge can determine that probable cause exist for a search, even if no law had been broken, based on the fact that all the ingredients have nothing else in common except the manufacture of meth.

While many perfectly legal and proper reasons could explain a group of people in America not speaking any language, when combined with the fact that no one had any ID, it possibly raises the probability to the level needed for detention. I sure won’t be dogmatic about it, as I do not know the details for sure. But I still will point out that an internal reviewdid not find fault, so until something else comes about in this case, I will tend to believe the reivew.

Let me throw out another case that I am familiar with. Locally, many people in this area come through this area illegally through empty freight cars. While this does not mean one must be here illegally to be in a train yard, when a large group of people who do not speak anything but Spanish are found in a train yard they are detained by INS based on the two factors. So far, every case has been shown to be here illegally. This means that the criteria for PC is pretty solid.

 

[Ituyu]

Here is all I know from the article:

The lawsuit alleges that Chabot first confirmed that Tamup’s license and registration were valid and that he had no criminal record.

“Chabot nonetheless proceeded to open the doors of the vehicle, and by utilizing Tamup as a translator, requested all the passengers to also provide identification,” according to an ACLU synopsis of the case. When some failed to do so, Chabot then asked them to produce documents “demonstrating their U.S. citizenship.”

So, why did the officer proceed? There was no PC to go beyond the traffic citation. He heard Spanish, no PC, He saw Latinos, no PC. Why open the doors? So why ask them for ID at all? This officer may be guilty of profiling, in my opinion, and profiling is illegal. That’s not to say that they weren’t “illegal” but he may have broken the law to find out. If an officer is allowed to ask for ID from any Latino speaking Spanish or ask anyone who speaks Spanish if they speak English, then he would be doing that here in Califnornia for the rest of his career and violating the Civil Rights of many people.

As far as searching trains, that is entirely different as trains are coming across the border and that is an Immigration matter. I may be wrong, but I doubt that you’ll find Immigration Agents routinely searching trains for “illegal” immigrants in the state of Rhode Island. The officer was well beyond our southern border and I can only wonder what led him to suspect that they were “illegal”.

 

[pnewton]

So, why did the officer proceed? There was no PC to go beyond the traffic citation. He heard Spanish, no PC, He saw Latinos, no PC. Why open the doors? So why ask them for ID at all?

I have no idea about Rhode Island law. In Texas, though, a policeman can ask for ID anytime. It doesn’t mean it has to be produced, but it can be asked for. Even grocery store clerks can ask. It may be he asked in order to get them to admit that they had no legal ID in this country. Would this be trickery? Yes, but not illegal. If the result was that he found out they were here illegally, then he did his job. Police often will try to get some one guilty of a crime to admit enough guilt (or complete guilt) to pursue a matter further. No doubt that further information on the conversation might shed light on the subject. If he asked where they were from and they told him Guatamala, then the lack of any paperwork would be better justification for detention. Since they were here illegally, it seems the officers instincts were good.

I do find his statement, if it is proven he made it, to the driver about shooting them reprehensible, though. I can say that where I am his actions at that point would have violated our policy nine ways to Sunday.

I also believe that racial profiling will be hard to prove based on a single incident in which an officer was right about the illegal status. It may also be shown that there is a problem with profiling at his department based on a broader history.

 

[kesa82]

.

Ok, point taken. So I will clarify;

" I take the US Attorney General over the radical and wacky ACLU anyday."

• does not address the PC issue.

" The AG tries to follow the law,

while the ACLU is always trying to re-write our democracy . "

In point of fact, BOTH parties try to re-write the law.
I seem to recall, by the way, several instances between 1861-1865 where the AG did precisely what he pleased without regard for what the Taney supreme court had to say on the matter.

 

[pnewton]

.
" I take the US Attorney General over the radical and wacky ACLU anyday."

• does not address the PC issue.

I have tried to address the PC issue in as much detail as I can. I will add the caveat that I not only am unfamiliar with Rhode Island, but have a somewhat tainted point of view since we deal with illegal immigration issues a lot. Houston PD recently came under fire for not attempting to enforce any immigration laws after an illegal immigrant was released and not deported, and subsequently killed a police officer. There is no easy answer. I do find that we have quite a bit of support from the hispanic community, though, so I guess we must be doing a farily good job of enforcement without violating rights.

One more thing. Nothing I have said reflects on my opinion of legal immigration, a topic on which I am rather liberal, or on illegal immigration, where I am at least understanding. I am only looking at the enforcement/legal isue.

 

[mystified]

My kids were born in the US, but until last year lived and went to school in México. Until thery returned here–without their non-existing green cards–and began learning English, we spoke only Spanish among ourselves.

Fortunately, we have not been stopped by the police for anything, but we have been criticized by people in California for speaking Spanish among ourselves. One of the critics was, lamentably, a priest.

Speaking a foreign language is no crime. American citizens do not ordiniarily have their birth certificate with them, nor are Puerto Ricans (US citizens) required to do so, even though they may not speak English. I am not aware that Naturalized US citizens must carry proof, either.

 

[Ituyu]

I have no idea about Rhode Island law. In Texas, though, a policeman can ask for ID anytime.

I wasn’t aware that in Texas a policeman could ask for an ID of anyone without having reason.

Would you also take detainees directly from the field to an ICE office or to your office for processing and transfer?

I do find his statement, if it is proven he made it, to the driver about shooting them reprehensible, though. I can say that where I am his actions at that point would have violated our policy nine ways to Sunday.

I also believe that racial profiling will be hard to prove based on a single incident in which an officer was right about the illegal status. It may also be shown that there is a problem with profiling at his department based on a broader history.

 

[pnewton]

Would you also take detainees directly from the field to an ICE office or to your office for processing and transfer?
.

 

[Ituyu]

Ituyu;1812541:

Sometimes, but not ususally. But if they are not taken to the local INS facility, an investigator will go to where they are immediately. They actually have a fairly large database of people who enter illegally, since most are repeat offenders. If they can not establish that they are here illegally, they are released immediately. So far, I have never seen this happen, even though I have seen hundreds processed.

I do remember one case where two people detained were US citizens. In a matter of minutes the others revealed that these two were the coyotes. They were not deporteed, but received felony charges.

I do recall a number of years ago that some youths and elderly American citizens were deported to Tijuana because they didn’t have the mental capacity to provide the proof needed. How do you suppose that happened?