ACNA & LCMS continue dialogue

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ACNA is not traditional in any sense of the word
Debatable. I think it depends on whether you view Anglicanism as traditionally protestant or traditionally catholic in its structure and worship. Many Anglicans would disagree though. There’s a popular word in these parts when describing “Anglicans,” I imagine someone will mention it soon.
 
Debatable. I think it depends on whether you view Anglicanism as traditionally protestant or traditionally catholic in its structure and worship. Many Anglicans would disagree though. There’s a popular word in these parts when describing “Anglicans,” I imagine someone will mention it soon.
Starts with “m”

In a thread on traditionalism, I’ve mentioned that" traditional Anglican" depends on what sort of Anglican one is thinking of. ACNA comprises two major types.
 
ACNA is not traditional in any sense of the word
Ok, you’ve piqued my curiosity. How is a body that is made up of conservative, traditional, and even Anglo-Catholic former Epsicopalians not traditional?
 
Ok, you’ve piqued my curiosity. How is a body that is made up of conservative, traditional, and even Anglo-Catholic former Epsicopalians not traditional?
A traditional Anglican on the reformed side of the spectrum will differ from a traditional Anglican on the AC side. ACNA has two major streams, as referenced above.They are a little uncomfortably yoked, on some doctrinal points.
 
ACNA is not traditional in any sense of the word
Ok, you’ve piqued my curiosity. How is a body that is made up of conservative, traditional, and even Anglo-Catholic former Epsicopalians not traditional?
Having posted several times on a thread about traditionalists in various denominations (who knows, maybe it’s the same thread GKC mentioned :)) I don’t want to rehash. However, I think it should be noted that for us [R]Cs, the word “traditional” is generally pretty high praise; so codefro’s comment doesn’t completely surprise me.
 
Having posted several times on a thread about traditionalists in various denominations (who knows, maybe it’s the same thread GKC mentioned :)) I don’t want to rehash. However, I think it should be noted that for us [R]Cs, the word “traditional” is generally pretty high praise; so codefro’s comment doesn’t completely surprise me.
Same thread.
 
ACNA has two major streams, as referenced above.They are a little uncomfortably yoked, on some doctrinal points.
It might just be me, but if “ACNA” wasn’t mentioned, I’d think you were talking about the Anglican communion as a whole.
 
It might just be me, but if “ACNA” wasn’t mentioned, I’d think you were talking about the Anglican communion as a whole.
I am, if not more. And, historically, in general, from the days of the Elizabethan Compromise.
 
Having posted several times on a thread about traditionalists in various denominations (who knows, maybe it’s the same thread GKC mentioned :)) I don’t want to rehash. However, I think it should be noted that for us [R]Cs, the word “traditional” is generally pretty high praise; so codefro’s comment doesn’t completely surprise me.
I speak as a former Anglican involved in various communities, including ACNA ones. My statement was not based on my views in Catholicism.
 
Ok, you’ve piqued my curiosity. How is a body that is made up of conservative, traditional, and even Anglo-Catholic former Epsicopalians not traditional?
ACC and TAC are more “traditional” in comparison to ACNA, they both still exclusively use the 28 and they have now ordained women as priests or bishops. Also, after following liturgical Anglican pages and seeing posts from all over the country, it is an observant pattern that many, if not most, ACNA Churches have no understanding of the Anglican liturgical history. They all make it up as they go. (Please don’t even get me started on that liturgy they made up as their own also.) Case in point, you will find many ACNA ministers celebrating in their clerical street clothes with a stole. Some not even that much. Anybody ever heard of “Ritual Notes”!? I mean you have better chances of finding higher liturgy in the Episcopal Church.

I said this even before becoming Catholic, but allowing female clergy in ACNA already made themselves obsolete. They can claim that they take biblical stances that the Epiacopal Church doesn’t, but that just means you are just 10 years behind them now. The same arguments used to push ECUSA “forward” can be used in ACNAIf you take their Affirmation of St. Louis as their statement protesting what they protested of the ECUSA, it’s better than anything I’ve seen on ACNA’s website.

So if we are going to use the word “traditional” it has to have some of these elements at least. Just because they claim to care more about the bible than some, that just means you care more about the bible. That doesn’t mean you’re traditional. Once again, im talking about what I thought of ACNA even as an Anglican. I have more nuanced opinions about all of this now, but at least my views on ACNA are still the same.
 
ACC and TAC are more “traditional” in comparison to ACNA, they both still exclusively use the 28 and they have now ordained women as priests or bishops. Also, after following liturgical Anglican pages and seeing posts from all over the country, it is an observant pattern that many, if not most, ACNA Churches have no understanding of the Anglican liturgical history. They all make it up as they go. (Please don’t even get me started on that liturgy they made up as their own also.) Case in point, you will find many ACNA ministers celebrating in their clerical street clothes with a stole. Some not even that much. Anybody ever heard of “Ritual Notes”!? I mean you have better chances of finding higher liturgy in the Episcopal Church.

I said this even before becoming Catholic, but allowing female clergy in ACNA already made themselves obsolete. They can claim that they take biblical stances that the Epiacopal Church doesn’t, but that just means you are just 10 years behind them now. The same arguments used to push ECUSA “forward” can be used in ACNAIf you take their Affirmation of St. Louis as their statement protesting what they protested of the ECUSA, it’s better than anything I’ve seen on ACNA’s website.

So if we are going to use the word “traditional” it has to have some of these elements at least. Just because they claim to care more about the bible than some, that just means you care more about the bible. That doesn’t mean you’re traditional. Once again, im talking about what I thought of ACNA even as an Anglican. I have more nuanced opinions about all of this now, but at least my views on ACNA are still the same.
I would argue the way the ACNA handles women’s ordination is very traditional in an Anglican sense of the word–here is the position of the ACNA straight from its website:
  • The Province shall make no canon abridging the authority of any member dioceses, clusters or networks (whether regional or affinity-based) and those dioceses banded together as jurisdictions with respect to its practice regarding the ordination of women to the diaconate or presbyterate (Constitution, Article VIII)
  • Except as hereinafter provided, the norms for ordination shall be determined by the Bishops having jurisdiction. (Title III Canon 1.4)
  • To be a suitable candidate for the episcopate, a person must: Be a male Presbyter at least 35 years old. (Title III Canon 8.3.7)
So, even with the qualms you have concerning many ACNA parishes, the governance of the body itself is still “Anglican.” Also, in order to dispute the “tradition” of the ACNA, I think you need to nail down what “traditionally Anglican” actually is, which is a lofty task indeed. Anglicanism itself has been historically and richly diverse in its theology and worship styles.
 
ACC and TAC are more “traditional” in comparison to ACNA, they both still exclusively use the 28 and they have now ordained women as priests or bishops. Also, after following liturgical Anglican pages and seeing posts from all over the country, it is an observant pattern that many, if not most, ACNA Churches have no understanding of the Anglican liturgical history. They all make it up as they go. (Please don’t even get me started on that liturgy they made up as their own also.) Case in point, you will find many ACNA ministers celebrating in their clerical street clothes with a stole. Some not even that much. Anybody ever heard of “Ritual Notes”!? I mean you have better chances of finding higher liturgy in the Episcopal Church.

I said this even before becoming Catholic, but allowing female clergy in ACNA already made themselves obsolete. They can claim that they take biblical stances that the Epiacopal Church doesn’t, but that just means you are just 10 years behind them now. The same arguments used to push ECUSA “forward” can be used in ACNAIf you take their Affirmation of St. Louis as their statement protesting what they protested of the ECUSA, it’s better than anything I’ve seen on ACNA’s website.

So if we are going to use the word “traditional” it has to have some of these elements at least. Just because they claim to care more about the bible than some, that just means you care more about the bible. That doesn’t mean you’re traditional. Once again, im talking about what I thought of ACNA even as an Anglican. I have more nuanced opinions about all of this now, but at least my views on ACNA are still the same.
ACNA comprises what might generally be called l the +Iker portion, and the ++Duncan school. Both are on the AC side of the spectrum, Duncan if only marginally. For each stream, what constitutes traditional, varies and has historically in Anglicanism. Liturgically, and in some cases, doctrinally.

Other components of ACNA also are spread along the Anglican spectrum. It is, in a sense, an attempt to recreate, for the 21st century, an analog of the Elizabethan compromise.

The St. Louis Statement was the founding document of what became the Continuum. And it reflects the essentially Anglo-Catholic views of the first out the door from TEC , 45+ years ago; those who (one or two steps later), became the ACC, the APCK, the ACA… If any constituents of the ACNA came from the Continuum (and they might have), they would look back to St. Louis. If not, they wouldn’t.

The issue of female ordination is the current main sticking point for what the ACNA will become. And it is a point that ACNA has decided to stop and ponder and discern about. I am curious as to what it will bring forth. There are some traditional traditionalists on each side of the main division, who oppose the idea, and some not so traditional traditionalists, ditto, who support it. ACNA, no more than anything else Anglican, can be understood in a reductionist, monolithic manner. Motley is the “M” word…

But that little problem is one reason that, for all I wish the ACNA (generally) well, and for all my admiration for +Iker, I am not looking for a local ACNA parish. I got a parish.

The ACNA is a work in progress. Unfledged, needing being licked into shape. It’s got a strong reformed wing, the Anglo-Catholics are in the minority (because most of that flavor,and doctrinally orthodox, left TEC to form Continuum Churches, years ago) and it has folk in it with …creative ideas. I watch with interest.

You will, of course, want to change the typo “now” to “not”, with respect to ACC and TAC, and other folk in the Continuum) and may, in fact, already have done so.
 
I would argue the way the ACNA handles women’s ordination is very traditional in an Anglican sense of the word–here is the position of the ACNA straight from its website:
  • The Province shall make no canon abridging the authority of any member dioceses, clusters or networks (whether regional or affinity-based) and those dioceses banded together as jurisdictions with respect to its practice regarding the ordination of women to the diaconate or presbyterate (Constitution, Article VIII)
  • Except as hereinafter provided, the norms for ordination shall be determined by the Bishops having jurisdiction. (Title III Canon 1.4)
  • To be a suitable candidate for the episcopate, a person must: Be a male Presbyter at least 35 years old. (Title III Canon 8.3.7)
So, even with the qualms you have concerning many ACNA parishes, the governance of the body itself is still “Anglican.” Also, in order to dispute the “tradition” of the ACNA, I think you need to nail down what “traditionally Anglican” actually is, which is a lofty task indeed. Anglicanism itself has been historically and richly diverse in its theology and worship styles.
True. Motley. With motley views of what is traditional. My parish is not ACNA, was formed shortly after St. Louis, is nosebleed high and Anglo-Catholic, (generally), quite traditional, in the historic Anglican/AC sense. And yet… got motley aspects.

People.
 
So, even with the qualms you have concerning many ACNA parishes, the governance of the body itself is still “Anglican.” Also, in order to dispute the “tradition” of the ACNA, I think you need to nail down what “traditionally Anglican” actually is, which is a lofty task indeed. Anglicanism itself has been historically and richly diverse in its theology and worship styles.
The way I look at it, if the convention is (and IDK if it is or not) to apply the term traditional to the ACNA, then I would go along with it … but with the understanding that it is a convention.

By way of illustration, I’m a Catholic who favors the sacrament of Confirmation *before *Holy Communion (which was the order of those sacraments in the Catholic Church until the last century or so) and Communion in both species. But in Catholicism, traditionalist Catholics have done such a good job of associating themselves with the word “traditional” that calling myself “traditional” would give people the wrong idea about me, so I don’t (at least most of the time in most circumstances). But again, that’s only a matter of convention.
 
True. Motley. With motley views of what is traditional. My parish is not ACNA, was formed shortly after St. Louis, is nosebleed high and Anglo-Catholic, (generally), quite traditional, in the historic Anglican/AC sense. And yet… got motley aspects.

People.
As you might be able to tell, I attend an ACNA parish. I would classify it as “moderate,” although many would unjustly say it is lower than Death Valley (no incense or bells). However, we have many in the parish with an Anglo-Catholic slant, the rector being moderate, and one of the priests being more AC.

I agree with your assessment of the ACNA, in that it is not fully formed yet, and has many differences within itself–this however is not unique to the ACNA, as you know. I do believe the overall hope is to become a full fledged member of the worldwide communion, but much would need to happen.
 
As you might be able to tell, I attend an ACNA parish. I would classify it as “moderate,” although many would unjustly say it is lower than Death Valley (no incense or bells). However, we have many in the parish with an Anglo-Catholic slant, the rector being moderate, and one of the priests being more AC.

I agree with your assessment of the ACNA, in that it is not fully formed yet, and has many differences within itself–this however is not unique to the ACNA, as you know. I do believe the overall hope is to become a full fledged member of the worldwide communion, but much would need to happen.
When the Continuum first began to emerge, after St. Louis, it had a similar goal; to be the Anglican Communion Church in the US. Tide wasn’t running that way.

It even had an ironically similar name, in the beginning.

Much incense, Sung Mass, yesterday, at our place.
 
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