acolytes, lectors and women

[Cristiano]

Why do you do all three liturgical ministries? I think one of the HUGE things hurting parishes are people that take on multiple liturgical ministries under the guise of “no one else will do it” while driving others away. That’s certainly the case in my parish. People are deeply entrenched and unless you happen to be one of them, good luck in becoming involved!

I think all servers should be males of all ages who might just possibly have a vocation as a priest or deacon. Serving at the altar and/or in the sacristy helps foster such vocations. When sacristies because de-facto ladies clubs (as many seem to be these days), it dissuades males from even getting involved. That’s simply the facts.

This looks like a typical post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. The problem is not with people, and especially women, serving in multiple roles. The problem is with lukewarm (at best) parishoners, especially sissified men. I serve in multiple roles, my son that is now sixteen does the same. If we are short of volunteers it is not because of us, it is because of people that just love to rationalize and blame others for their own shortcomings, that’s simply the true facts.

 

[PJM]

=Walcot;10116039]My question came up in discussion in another thread but as it was going off at a tangent from the original thread, the discussion was stopped. So, as I’d still like to know about this, my questions are…what is an acolyte as opposed to a server? I’m assuming that an acolyte is a kind of trainee priest, but I don’t want to assume - I’d like you to explain to me!
And how does a lector (in the strict meaning of the word) differ from a reader and why can women not be lectors?
I admit that I do not understand why women cannot be priests so this is probably going to be hard for me to understand, but I want to try.

Here’s both answers my friend

WELCOME TO CAF FORUM

From Fr. Hardon’s Catholic Dic.
ACOLYTE. A ministry to which a person is specially appointed by the Church to assist the deacon and to minister to the priest. His duty is to attend to the service of the altar and to assist as needed in the celebration of the Mass. He may also distribute Holy Communion as an auxiliary minister at the Eucharistic liturgy and to the sick. An acolyte may be entrusted with publicly exposing the Blessed Sacrament for adoration but not with giving benediction. He may also, to the extent needed, take care of instructing other faithful who by appointment assist the priest or deacon by carrying the missal, cross, candles, and similar functions. The ministry of acolyte is reserved to men and conferred by the bishop of the diocese or, in clerical institutes of religious, by the major superior, according to the liturgical rites composed for the purpose by the Church. Women may be delegated to perform some of the functions of an acolyte. (Etym. Greek akolouthos, attendant follower.)"

Blessed Pope John Paul II gave the following reasons why only men can be priest:
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ORDIN.HTM

1. Sacred Tradition: ALL O T Priest; Jesus and all of the Apostles were men. BY choice not accident.
2. Thr Fact that Jesus Himself was [is] Male and thus inorder to make Jesus Really present “This IS MY Body; and this IS My Blood” [some of the essentail Words of Consecration of the Eucharist; which requires the same gender
3. Because **Holy Orders is a Sacrament and ALL seven Sacraments are Instituted by Chcrist Himself: “the Church [and Pope] LACK the authority to chane what God Himself Instituted”

Thanks for asking,

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Why do you do all three liturgical ministries? I think one of the HUGE things hurting parishes are people that take on multiple liturgical ministries under the guise of “no one else will do it” while driving others away. That’s certainly the case in my parish. People are deeply entrenched and unless you happen to be one of them, good luck in becoming involved!

I think all servers should be males of all ages who might just possibly have a vocation as a priest or deacon. Serving at the altar and/or in the sacristy helps foster such vocations. When sacristies because de-facto ladies clubs (as many seem to be these days), it dissuades males from even getting involved. That’s simply the facts.

Because I was asked? Seriously. My helping where needed does NOT drive people away. Obviously you have never had to deal with trying to get people to volunteer. On the serious side…there are a lot of families that have children and having numerious obligations. On the other side you have some elderly people who don’t want to do it anymore. Case in point…as sacrastian/head server. My spot came from an older gentlemen who no longer wanted to do it. That left two people for the early Mass-both of whom prefer to drink coffee before Mass AND then do their duties. I was asked to serve…I asked the priest what he thought…got his ok (rather quickly). I figured that I could do just a good of job serving as they do–without all the disorganization. In our parish you have to be an EMHC before you can do this role.

As far as RCIA–this is my first year…and the fact of the matter is…NO one was stepping up. Plain and simple…but I’m part of a team. Others could be added if they wanted.

You’re suggesting that I or others are driving people away by serving when others will not is absurd and insulting. You want to get involved…then step up!

As far as what you prefer for servers…I don’t really care. The Church allows females-my parish (and priest) allows females so that’s that. BTW–of our sacrastians…it’s pretty much an even mix (males/females) but all the males are married so I doubt that they are fostering much of a vocation to the priesthood.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

“Women may be delegated to perform some of the functions of an acolyte”

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

This looks like a typical post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. The problem is not with people, and especially women, serving in multiple roles. The problem is with lukewarm (at best) parishoners, especially sissified men. I serve in multiple roles, my son that is now sixteen does the same. If we are short of volunteers it is not because of us, it is because of people that just love to rationalize and blame others for their own shortcomings, that’s simply the true facts.

 

[YoungTradCath]

There would be absolutely no advantage to permanently instituing acolytes and lectors unless the formation to institution was considerable. The purification of sacred vessels matter is simply not enough reason to permanetly institute acolytes given the potential downside of permanently instituting someone.

In years past the function of porter was often abused. It was bestowed upon those who gave the most money to the Church, etc. I suspect there would be a great deal of maneuvering by many to be permanetly instituted if it became a common option.

Fine. Is there another, more effective option?

 

[Gorgias]

What if wearing work clothes means having enough time to prepare before Mass, but rushing to change clothes before Mass (to fit someone else’s idea of how one should look) leaves little or no time to prepare? This is my dilemma. I choose to prepare myself internally rather than externally.

Hmm… why should it be an either/or thing, though? Ideally, shouldn’t it be a both/and thing? That being the case, since this isn’t an ordained or instituted ministry, what is it about your participation in this role that makes you think “as long as I’m partially prepared, I’m good to go”?

It’s not a perfect analogy, but what if we compared it to a job interview or a date? Imagine that you were thinking to yourself, “well, I could either prepare myself mentally for this interview, or I could dress well. Hmm… you know, I’m gonna prepare myself mentally and go in less-than-ideal dress. After all, I shouldn’t have to fit someone else’s idea of how I should look, should I?” In that case, I’m certain, you would decide to defer, until a time that you were able to prepare both internally and externally! Why should your participation in the Mass be held to any lesser standard?

If my priest didn’t agree with this, he would have said something by now; and I would be able to be just another pew sitter.

Perhaps. Maybe he might have said, “I really value your participation in the liturgy as a reader (/server); but, would you mind sticking to a certain dress code?”. Of course, if he said that, he might lose you altogether. Given that sort of choice, perhaps he’s decided on the lesser evil of not losing you, but unfortunately not standing firm in requesting that you dress appropriately for service at the altar. Now… are you saying that your personal participation in the liturgy as a reader takes precedence over the dignity of the celebration in general? If your pastor doesn’t want to make waves by saying anything, is it more important to you that you are reader as often as possible than it is that certain standards for all readers are upheld?

 

[Gorgias]

Jegudiel:

There would be absolutely no advantage to permanently instituing acolytes and lectors unless the formation to institution was considerable. The purification of sacred vessels matter is simply not enough reason to permanetly institute acolytes given the potential downside of permanently instituting someone.

In years past the function of porter was often abused. It was bestowed upon those who gave the most money to the Church, etc. I suspect there would be a great deal of maneuvering by many to be permanetly instituted if it became a common option.

Fine. Is there another, more effective option?

Yup. Got a son you might start talking to (and praying for) regarding a vocation to the priesthood? A brother? A cousin? A friend? Got a minute to personally talk to your diocesan vocations director about any ways that you might help out in the effort to get more Catholic men discerning for the priesthood?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Hmm… why should it be an either/or thing, though? Ideally, shouldn’t it be a both/and thing? That being the case, since this isn’t an ordained or instituted ministry, what is it about your participation in this role that makes you think “as long as I’m partially prepared, I’m good to go”?

It’s not a perfect analogy, but what if we compared it to a job interview or a date? Imagine that you were thinking to yourself, “well, I could either prepare myself mentally for this interview, or I could dress well. Hmm… you know, I’m gonna prepare myself mentally and go in less-than-ideal dress. After all, I shouldn’t have to fit someone else’s idea of how I should look, should I?” In that case, I’m certain, you would decide to defer, until a time that you were able to prepare both internally and externally! Why should your participation in the Mass be held to any lesser standard?

Perhaps. Maybe he might have said, “I really value your participation in the liturgy as a reader (/server); but, would you mind sticking to a certain dress code?”. Of course, if he said that, he might lose you altogether. Given that sort of choice, perhaps he’s decided on the lesser evil of not losing you, but unfortunately not standing firm in requesting that you dress appropriately for service at the altar. Now… are you saying that your personal participation in the liturgy as a reader takes precedence over the dignity of the celebration in general? If your pastor doesn’t want to make waves by saying anything, is it more important to you that you are reader as often as possible than it is that certain standards for all readers are upheld?

Always reassuring to know that pants on women are personally responsible for all the evils of the world…cough (sarcasm)

 

[Gorgias]

Always reassuring to know that pants on women are personally responsible for all the evils of the world…cough (sarcasm)

LOL!

Perhaps you’re getting confused by the cross-fire; I’m not talking about the “evils” of women who wear pants (oh, the horror! ). Instead, I was responding to the notion of coming straight from work without changing out of work clothes and into something a little more appropriate for Mass (which, as it were, could be nice slacks).

Of course, if you wish to set up a straw man and spin my comments as belonging to the “pants on women are evil” meme, that’s your business…

Blessings,

G.

 

[GwenL]

All the same, you are there to assist the priest and serve in humility. If you don’t like the conditions the priest puts, then don’t do it.

It seems to me that she is following the conditions that her priest puts. She is assisting her priest, not anyone else’s, and her priest has approved her wearing work clothes and even pants! Is that OK with you?

 

[GwenL]

LOL!

Perhaps you’re getting confused by the cross-fire; I’m not talking about the “evils” of women who wear pants (oh, the horror! ). Instead, I was responding to the notion of coming straight from work without changing out of work clothes and into something a little more appropriate for Mass (which, as it were, could be nice slacks).

Of course, if you wish to set up a straw man and spin my comments as belonging to the “pants on women are evil” meme, that’s your business…

Blessings,

G.

Too many people on CAF seem to want to apply their standards of formality of dress to everyone else.

Our local fire chief comes to Mass in his uniform, right after or before work. We have nurses and EMS people in work clothes. We are downtown in a casino town, and we even have casino workers in clothes with name tags and the casino logo. What possible problem could anyone have with that–as long as the clothes are modest and clean?

 

[GwenL]

Fine. Is there another, more effective option?

Many people on these boards support boys and young men serving at the altar to help them discern a priestly vocation. In fact, this is one of the reasons that many people use to argue against women and girls serving at the altar. If many parishes had instituted acolytes, these boys and young men who might be discerning a vocation would be precluded from service at the altar, because there already is a server or group of servers, in the form of an instituted acolyte.

If an instituted acolyte is not discerning the priesthood, and will not be a priest, what is the difference between him serving and a woman serving? People say that women and girls shouldn’t serve at the altar because they won’t be priests. Neither will your type of instituted acolyte. Neither will be priests, and if we want service at the altar to be for those who might be priests, we should be consistent.

 

[Jegudiel]

you can say that again. I’ve seen sacristies both ways, and the difference is palpable. I even had a friend’s mom (who helps clean altar linens and cassocks) that it’s sometimes a slightly weird feeling coming into the sacristy, because they *almost *feel out of place. However, next she said, without a breath, that that is the way it should be. It’s a sacristy. I can’t help but agree, at least in part. Maybe she didn’t phrase it as well as she could have, but the idea is still there.

It really can get bad in some parishes. My own parish has 7 Sunday Masses (I figure we fill the equivelent of perhaps 3, yet we have 7.) The way the insider liturgical ministers treat the sacristy is an abomination Everything from doughnuts and coffee before Mass to LOUD, carnival-like behavior that booms out into the church. It was never like that years ago. The sacristy was a very quiet place for prayer and preparation.

Until the (next) pastor decides to fix things (or not), it will cast a terrible pall over my parish. A parish down the road about 15 miles still has a very quiet sacristy with limited access. I feel a bit on edge having to enter that room. I LIKE that feeling.

Ever notice brand new liturgical ministers are extremely reverent? Around here all are. They either quit or join the carnival behavior after a few months. It’s sad to watch.

 

[Jegudiel]

This looks like a typical post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. The problem is not with people, and especially women, serving in multiple roles. The problem is with lukewarm (at best) parishoners, especially sissified men. I serve in multiple roles, my son that is now sixteen does the same. If we are short of volunteers it is not because of us, it is because of people that just love to rationalize and blame others for their own shortcomings, that’s simply the true facts.

Naw. Not at least in my experience.

There are about a half-dozen “super lay minister coordinators” at my parish. Each one a woman. Of the six, ONE is professional – our music director. The rest treat people poorly, period and they are incompetent to boot.

Yes, my pastor should have fixed it by now. So should the last 4-5 pastors. Interestingly enough one of our far back pastors is now retired and in-residence at the parish. He lamented the same thing. I felt like saying why didn’t YOU handle the problem 20 years ago but I refrained.

One day (and it may not be for a long time), a new pastor will clean house. It has happened in my deanery and the results have been remarkable in other parishes.

 

[Jegudiel]

Fine. Is there another, more effective option?

In order of preference:

1. Ordain a huge number of priests and deacons.
2. Get very serious about training requirements and performance expectations for commissioned liturgical ministers.

 

[Jegudiel]

With regards to a dress code for readers, cantors, EMsHC, servers, etc. it becomes very difficult in this day and age because too many people simply don’t have the personal formation to realize how to dress for Mass – particularly when they take on the responsibility of a lay ministry.

You think you could say something like:

No sleeveless tops, no exposed cleavage or other revealing clothing, no obsence writing or symbols on clothing, no shorts or miniskirts, no bluejeans and no athletic shoes or shower flip-flops. It doesn’t get much simpler than and it would be a huge improvement over many parishes.

But people will argue and complain and they will continue to do so. “I have to wear shorts due to the heat; I only wear bluejeans, I only own shower flip-flops, etc.” Offer to buy them proper baseline clothing and their resistance increases.

I visited a parish one time and ALL the lay ministers (except the servers) wore navy blue lab coats that came down past their knees. They all looked modest, neat and none looked like ordained ministers, etc. I e-mailed the pastor and asked him about it. He said he had a heck of a time instituting even a basic dress code so he bought the lab coats ($25.00 each) and made wearing them a condition of taking part in such ministires.

They had to be buttoned-up and they could not be adorned with pins, embroidered, etc. He said 20-30% of the lay ministers quit. That says a great deal to me. They were also quickly replaced. That says a lot more to me. That pastor was bright.

 

[Gorgias]

Our local fire chief comes to Mass in his uniform, right after or before work. We have nurses and EMS people in work clothes. We are downtown in a casino town, and we even have casino workers in clothes with name tags and the casino logo. What possible problem could anyone have with that–as long as the clothes are modest and clean?

Again, we’re talking apples and oranges here. The question isn’t “what’s appropriate dress for attendance at Mass?”, it’s “what’s appropriate dress for service at the altar as a reader or server?”…

 

[SHoJ]

Again, we’re talking apples and oranges here. The question isn’t “what’s appropriate dress for attendance at Mass?”, it’s “what’s appropriate dress for service at the altar as a reader or server?”…

But if clothes like those above are appropriate enough to attend Mass in, aren’t they appropriate enough to serve in?

 

[Lapey]

But if clothes like those above are appropriate enough to attend Mass in, aren’t they appropriate enough to serve in?

Not always. People sometimes feel comfort is more important. Sleeveless shirts or blouses, tank tops, short skirts or dresses, flip flop shoes, tennis shoes or sneakers, etc. Many things that are normally worn by many to Mass would not be appropriate to wear at the Ambo or to serve at the altar.

My pastor is quite insistent on being prepared and properly dressed, and also responsible; he has a three strike policy for those who miss their assignments without finding a suitable replacement. They are removed from the ministry list if they violate it. They are also called in if there is a problem with attire or the way they carry out their functions.

During the preparation period for the changes to the translation of the missal last year leading up to Advent, he called each group of ministers in as an individual group and “re-trained” them. He also had each person sign a document with the guidelines and requirements of each ministry, so that no one could say, “well I didn’t know that.” I can tell you the list of ministers shrunk a little but that is changing now as more people step up to minister. The Mass is much more reverent and more properly prayed now. We have seen quite a bit of change this first year since these latest Roman Missal changes to the translations.

I’m sorry to those who feel these guidelines are too strict, but it should mean something to get up to the ambo to proclaim the Word of God or serve at the altar; it’s not just a “thing” to do. This is the Mass we are talking about; many people in this congregation you are proclaiming the Word to, this is the only scripture they will hear for the entire week or whenever the next time they go to Mass may be. It’s more important than what you think you should be able to do or wear.