Active participation before Vatican II?

  • Thread starter Thread starter VociMike
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
V

VociMike

Guest
  • Did the Church call for “active participation” of the faithful before Vatican II?
  • Did the phrase “active participation” originate with Vatican II?
 
I haven’t seen the expression in any document prior to the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy. And it has been seriously misunderstood. The idea that we must be involved in ‘doing’ something, i.e. singing all the hymns, etc. is a misunderstanding.

Obviously the Church never understood ‘active participation’ the way the self-appointed liturgist have told us we are to understand it. If ‘active’ meant that the average person in the pew had to sing everything that’s sung during Mass would the GIRM be very clear that the hymns & the Gloria can quite properly be sung by the choir alone?

Our full, conscious, active (a bad translation of the Latin by all accounts), participation can be meditating on the lyrics of a hymn.
 
I posted this in the praise & worship topic…

Active participation not part of pre Vat II ?
Gee, My Sunday Missal used by me in 1959 etc clearly states participate actively by reciting the same prayers as the priest and reminds one that though you are a lay person you are also a lay
priest…

james
 
Jakub said:
I posted this in the praise & worship topic…

Active participation not part of pre Vat II ?
Gee, My Sunday Missal used by me in 1959 etc clearly states participate actively by reciting the same prayers as the priest and reminds one that though you are a lay person you are also a lay
priest…
Click to expand...
It was your comment that got me thinking, hence my questions.

And I should clarify, in my first question I’m not asking if the Church used the precise phrase “active participation,” but rather I’m asking if the Church, any time before Vatican II, called on us to participate in essentially the same way that she had in mind in Vatican II? Or was the very notion of active participation (nevermind the exact phrase) unheard of before Vatican II?
 
VociMike said:
It was your comment that got me thinking, hence my questions.

And I should clarify, in my first question I’m not asking if the Church used the precise phrase “active participation,” but rather I’m asking if the Church, any time before Vatican II, called on us to participate in essentially the same way that she had in mind in Vatican II? Or was the very notion of active participation (nevermind the exact phrase) unheard of before Vatican II?
Click to expand...
Yes they did.
 
From what I have understood, reading various books and accounts of the saints, the active participation that was sought for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was praying the Mass along with the priest and having the faithful unite themselves to him as he offered the Saving Victim to the Father.

But, we have a false sense of active participation as a result of the so-called spirit of Vatican II. Pope Benedict XVI, in Sacramentum Caritatis, offers what I think is one of the best explanations of active participation:
Personal conditions for an “active participation”
Click to expand...
  1. In their consideration of the actuosa participatio of the faithful in the liturgy, the Synod Fathers also discussed the personal conditions required for fruitful participation on the part of individuals. (168) One of these is certainly the spirit of constant conversion which must mark the lives of all the faithful. Active participation in the eucharistic liturgy can hardly be expected if one approaches it superficially, without an examination of his or her life. This inner disposition can be fostered, for example, by recollection and silence for at least a few moments before the beginning of the liturgy, by fasting and, when necessary, by sacramental confession. A heart reconciled to God makes genuine participation possible. The faithful need to be reminded that there can be no actuosa participatio in the sacred mysteries without an accompanying effort to participate actively in the life of the Church as a whole, including a missionary commitment to bring Christ’s love into the life of society.
Click to expand...
Clearly, full participation in the Eucharist takes place when the faithful approach the altar in person to receive communion (169). Yet true as this is, care must be taken lest they conclude that the mere fact of their being present in church during the liturgy gives them a right or even an obligation to approach the table of the Eucharist. Even in cases where it is not possible to receive sacramental communion, participation at Mass remains necessary, important, meaningful and fruitful. In such circumstances it is beneficial to cultivate a desire for full union with Christ through the practice of spiritual communion, praised by Pope John Paul II (170) and recommended by saints who were masters of the spiritual life (171).
Click to expand...
Therefore, there is an interior element to active participation. I would submit that part of that could include meditating on the readings the night before Mass or even getting something like the Magnificat booklet to help prepare yourself for the next day’s liturgy. Of course, while receiving Holy Communion denotes a full participation in the Mass, if one is not properly disposed, one can still pray at the Mass and seek out the sacrament of Penance so as to be able to fully share in these sacred mysteries.

Now, in a few paragraphs above the section I quoted from Sacramentum Caritatis, the Holy Father explains what authentic participation means. This is the crux of the matter because you can be loud and proud, but, if it’s all show and no go, then your participation may be active, but not the real deal:
Authentic participation
Click to expand...
  1. The Second Vatican Council rightly emphasized the active, full and fruitful participation of the entire People of God in the eucharistic celebration (155). Certainly, the renewal carried out in these past decades has made considerable progress towards fulfilling the wishes of the Council Fathers. Yet we must not overlook the fact that some misunderstanding has occasionally arisen concerning the precise meaning of this participation. It should be made clear that the word “participation” does not refer to mere external activity during the celebration. In fact, the active participation called for by the Council must be understood in more substantial terms, on the basis of a greater awareness of the mystery being celebrated and its relationship to daily life. The conciliar Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium encouraged the faithful to take part in the eucharistic liturgy not “as strangers or silent spectators,” but as participants “in the sacred action, conscious of what they are doing, actively and devoutly” (156). This exhortation has lost none of its force. The Council went on to say that the faithful “should be instructed by God’s word, and nourished at the table of the Lord’s Body. They should give thanks to God. Offering the immaculate Victim, not only through the hands of the priest but also together with him, they should learn to make an offering of themselves. Through Christ, the Mediator, they should be drawn day by day into ever more perfect union with God and each other” (157).
Click to expand...
There lies the heart of the problem. We “read into’” the texts of the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy rather than reading what the texts actually say.
 
There was certainly a fair amount of theological thought and writing being bandied about before Vatican II concerning the topic. It could be said that it was this significant focus which brought the concept into the spotlight at the time.
 
chicago said:
There was certainly a fair amount of theological thought and writing being bandied about before Vatican II concerning the topic. It could be said that it was this significant focus which brought the concept into the spotlight at the time.
Click to expand...
So would you say that active participation was impossible before the changes of Vatican II?
 
VociMike said:
It was your comment that got me thinking, hence my questions.

And I should clarify, in my first question I’m not asking if the Church used the precise phrase “active participation,” but rather I’m asking if the Church, any time before Vatican II, called on us to participate in essentially the same way that she had in mind in Vatican II? Or was the very notion of active participation (nevermind the exact phrase) unheard of before Vatican II?
Click to expand...
If you were reading the thread about praying the rosary DURING the TLM the answer would seem to be no.
 
Hello,

The first question we must ask is: what is active participation? Or more precisely: what does the Church mean by the words “participatio actuosa”?

Here is an interesting and insightful article on the subject:

Participation by Msgr. Richard Schuler
 
VociMike said:
So then, was active participation in the liturgy possible before the changes following Vatican II, or was it impossible?
Click to expand...
It certainly was possible and is possible in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, that is what they were talking about when they wrote the documents as that was the Mass that existed. The new Mass did not exist yet.

So to be actively participating this would mean actually participating and not just being a bystander.

Unfortunately in our narcissistic society it feels like we are participating when people can see us doing something as opposed to allowing God to see our hearts, our minds and listen to our prayers. It is very difficult to authentically seek to participate for God instead of our own selfish need for attention.

This is the constant temptation most of us fall into and why active participation has been twisted to mean being in front of everyone and proving to others you are participating instead of allowing God to see you, in obedience.

I am guilty of this, when I had just came back to the Church I was so insistant on participating I worried about how I looked and how much I was expressing myself among others in the Mass. It is easy to fall into.

God Bless
Scylla
 
VociMike said:
So would you say that active participation was impossible before the changes of Vatican II?
Click to expand...
No, not impossible. But perhaps not as well appreciated or effected or even understood as might have been desirable.
 
scylla said:
So to be actively participating this would mean actually participating and not just being a bystander.
Click to expand...
It is notable that the previous Sunday requirement of Catholics was to “attend” Mass, while it is now more oriented to “participation” in Mass.
Unfortunately in our narcissistic society it feels like we are participating when people can see us doing something as opposed to allowing God to see our hearts, our minds and listen to our prayers. It is very difficult to authentically seek to participate for God instead of our own selfish need for attention.
Click to expand...
This is the constant temptation most of us fall into and why active participation has been twisted to mean being in front of everyone and proving to others you are participating instead of allowing God to see you, in obedience.
Click to expand...
I am guilty of this, when I had just came back to the Church I was so insistant on participating I worried about how I looked and how much I was expressing myself among others in the Mass. It is easy to fall into.
Click to expand...
God Bless
Scylla
Click to expand...
I have postulated that the part of the present problem is how the Church seems under the control of extroverts.
 
I have my grandfather’s old prayer book which has both the Ordinary Mass and the Mass for the Dead. Original date was 1925 and it was revised in 1939. I just looked it over. There are an awful lot of responses required from the people for people to be able to simply sit there and pray the rosary. Ok, I just counted there were 36 responses. This does not include the Nicene Creed or the Our Father prayer or any of the prayers said by the faithful. This simply includes the responses of the faithful. It would seem to me that active participation was quite possible provided the person really did want to participate.

Of course I have never participated in a pre-Vatican II Mass so take my thoughts above with a grain of salt. 🙂
 
Sabda said:
I have my grandfather’s old prayer book which has both the Ordinary Mass and the Mass for the Dead. Original date was 1925 and it was revised in 1939. I just looked it over. There are an awful lot of responses required from the people for people to be able to simply sit there and pray the rosary. Ok, I just counted there were 36 responses. This does not include the Nicene Creed or the Our Father prayer or any of the prayers said by the faithful. This simply includes the responses of the faithful. It would seem to me that active participation was quite possible provided the person really did want to participate.

Of course I have never participated in a pre-Vatican II Mass so take my thoughts above with a grain of salt. 🙂
Click to expand...
While for some years before Vat. II some countries were using dialog Masses, in Canada and I suspect the US as well, none of those responses were said by the faithful. That duty belonged to the altar servers who had to learn them all by heart. My dad probably remembered the words to the Confiteor until he died a few years ago at the age of 90 – he was an altar sever for almost 30 years before Vat II.
 
VociMike said:
Did everybody pray the rosary during Mass before Vatican II? And did the Church mandate that they do so?
Click to expand...
Not everyone but it was promoted (vs mandated) for use DURING the Mass as if it was some kind of supplement for individuals instead of having them listen to/read along during times it was not the people’s turn to say something.

I have seen just over the last couple of days a suggestion it still be used - like during the homily.
 
VociMike said:
  • Did the Church call for “active participation” of the faithful before Vatican II?
  • Did the phrase “active participation” originate with Vatican II?
Click to expand...
No. I believe Pope PIUS XII got the ball rolling on that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top