Acts 12:2 Why was not the apostle james replaced?

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Tantum_ergo said:
Well, first, we believe that a successor for St. James WAS chosen; just as successors for St. Peter, St. Thomas, St. Bartholomew, etc. But THEIR successors were not ‘named’ in Acts, or in any other New Testament writings (even though it is more than possible that St. Thomas, for example, died ‘before’ St. Paul did). Certainly the long tradition that St. John lived to be 90 years old and wrote Revelation at the end of that long life would have implied that HE ‘knew’ all the successors of his apostolic brothers. . .and ‘could’ have recorded THAT in Revelation.

But he didn’t.

Remember that the ‘recorded’ example of a person being chosen as an apostle was not as a SUCCESSOR. Matthias REPLACED Judas, he did not ‘succeed’ him.
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He lived 90 years? That’s a mighty feat considering that was before modern medicine. Even now the average life span is like what?..80?
 
Naztakuan said:
He lived 90 years? That’s a mighty feat considering that was before modern medicine. Even now the average life span is like what?..80?
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Take a look at St Ireneaus. Ireneaus is said to have lived to 86. It seems he died of a heat stroke. His heart couldn’t take his being burned at the stake.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Acts 12:2
And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.

If the office of an Apostle was to be passed down ( true apolostolic succession ) from man to man then why was not the Apostle James replaced and that recorded in the book of Acts?

Note: Paul became an apostle before James died.
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What would I gain by trading my possibly questionable apostolic church that surely has the correct moral teachings for a non-apostolic one that surely does not??
 
Naztakuan said:
that made me giggle a little:p
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I was hoping it wasn’t too soon after his death to make light of it. Johnny Carson used to bomb telling Abe Lincoln theater jokes and then complained that maybe “it’s too soon”. I always loved that!
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Acts 13

1In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “**Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” **3So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.
On Cyprus
4The two of them, sent on their way by the Holy Spirit, went down to Seleucia and sailed from there to Cyprus. 5When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the Jewish synagogues. John was with them as their helper.

With all respect, I see the HOLY SPIRIT as the one sending them out as APOSTLES, not the church itself.

It would be an interresting study to see where each of the apostles were sent out.

Anyone? 👍
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Yes. The Holy Spirit inspired those where at prayer. Then the Church “placed their hands on them”. There is no conflict between the Holy Spirit and the Church through Whom he works. They are not separate. They are not divided. You’re still thinking in “either/or” terms. The Body of Christ and the Soul of the Church [the Holy Spirit] are one. That is why Ignatius of Antioch can say with confidence, “where the Bishop is, there is the Church.”
 
NotWorthy said:
Take a look at St Ireneaus. Ireneaus is said to have lived to 86. It seems he died of a heat stroke. His heart couldn’t take his being burned at the stake.
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That was Polycarp. Many people lived to be very old. If you didn’t die by 40, you likely could make it to 80. Even the Psalms consider a life span “three-score and ten”.
 
NotWorthy said:
But I think you are going off on the wrong tangent here.

Jesus’ “methods” of proof texting do not follwo the patterns of Jewish interpretation of that day. I don’t believe Paul’s would qualify as well.

This is the New Covenant Church and they are interpreting the OT Scriptures in light of Christ, something I don’t believe the Jews did.
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Note, the inspired author of Acts never indicates that Peter taught in error in this part. I don’t believe this follows Luke’s tendencies in his writings.

with all respect, one is “filled with the Holy Spirit” for empowerment to do God’s will. Peter was NOT thus empowered in Acts 1, he was simply walking in the flesh there. Also, Jesus used known Jewish methods of interpretation. Peter was way off the mark so to speak.

Do yourself a favor study what it means to be filled with the Spirit. Peter simply was NOT in Acts 1.
 
TDiGaetano said:
The Holy Spirit calls us to do the work of the Lord, In 13:3 you see that the apostle still layed on hands (ordained) and sent him on his way to continue the work of God.

In Act 1 when they replaced Judas’s spot Man did not replace him the Holy spirit filled his position.

Peter was just exercising his authority that was given to him by Jesus.
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And, in Acts 13:2 The Holy Spirit himself spoke directly. In Acts 1, there is NO such direction, speaking given directly by the Holy Spirit. The first filling of the Holy Spirit did NOT come into play until Acts 2, and it the filling of the Holy Spirit was repeated often though the rest of the book of Acts. Simply put, in Acts 1 they were NOT empowered by the HOLY SPIRIT to do anything.

Take the time to read the book of Acts paying attention to Holy Spirit, Ghost, with “fill”, “filled”, “full”, “upon”. They simply were not filled with the Holy Spirit in Acts 1, that is why I know they were “in the flesh”.

Read what I wrote completely. In Acts 1, Jesus commands them to wait for the filling of the Holy Spirit which did not occurr until Acts 2. Peter was an impusive guy who often acted in the Flesh, otherwise Jesus would have never told him to “get you behind me adversary ( satan )”.

Take the time to read the two quotes from Psalms in Hebrew.
 
mark_a said:
What would I gain by trading my possibly questionable apostolic church that surely has the correct moral teachings for a non-apostolic one that surely does not??
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JESUS
LIFE IN THE SPIRIT
HEAVEN

Basically, I am saying just living a “moral” life is NOT going to get you into heaven because OUR righteousness is rotten rags in God’s sight.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Nor is attending a church you believe has “apostolic succession” is going to get you into heaven neither.

It is a personal relationship with the real Jesus, living in the Spirit that will get you into heaven. You can walk into a garage, that does NOT make you a CAR. And, simply going to church does NOT make you a Christian. It is active faith in the real Jesus that will get you there.

Jesus himself tells us that on the Last day, there are going to be many people who think they are going to heaven, who ARE NOT going to heaven because they lack a personal relationship with Jesus.

Matthew 7:22-23 (King James Version)

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Take note, “good people” do all kinds of good moral things, BUT they will go to Hell because,

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Simply because they did NOT have that personal relationship with Jesus they will go to Hell because their personal righteousness is rotten rags in God’s sight.

So, my friend How is your relationship with Jesus going?

In short,

It is not going to the right church that is going to get you into heaven.

It is not your own morals that is going to get you into heaven.

It is only Jesus that will get you there.

:rolleyes:

Besides, I am not telling you to leave your church as you pretend.
 
mercygate said:
Yes. The Holy Spirit inspired those where at prayer. Then the Church “placed their hands on them”. There is no conflict between the Holy Spirit and the Church through Whom he works. They are not separate. They are not divided. You’re still thinking in “either/or” terms. The Body of Christ and the Soul of the Church [the Holy Spirit] are one. That is why Ignatius of Antioch can say with confidence, “where the Bishop is, there is the Church.”
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And, in doing so they directly disobeyed Jesus, who told them to WAIT.

Acts 1

1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

*6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? *

If you did not figure it out verse six proves they were still walking in the flesh because they were still looking for an earthly kingdom.

Then Jesus directly chooses PAUL.
 
I find it funny that not one of you has taken the time to examine the arguments I have been making completely. If you had you would see that scripture also records the miss-steps of the apostles. And, that Acts 1 is one such miss-step because they were still wanting to set up an earthly kingdom.

You would see that Jesus said, “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.”

In short, the apostles DO NOT have the authority to set up an earthly kingdom which is what Peter’s screw up was all about.

Take the time to diagram this verse,

Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God the Father ] gave him Jesus ] to show his servants believers ] what must soon take place. He the Father ] made it the unveiling of Jesus ] known by sending his angel to his servant John the apostle ],

Do you disagree with any of the square brackets here? That God the Father is the one giving this revelation to Jesus then to John because based on Acts 1:7 that the times or the seasons is in only God the Fathers authority?

Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Is Jesus lying in Matthew 24 and in Acts 1 that only God the Father knows when?

:rolleyes:
 
*Matthew 16:13-20

Peter’s Confession of Christ
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

14They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15"But what about you?" he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ,[Or Messiah] the Son of the living God.”

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[Peter means rock] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[Hell] will not overcome it.[not prove stronger than it] 19**I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[have been] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[have been] loosed in heaven.” **20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ[Messah]. *

In verse 19 if Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the power to bind and loose things on earth and they will be upheld in heaven. Then why is Peter in error for replacing Judas before the holy spirit supposibly comes? Was it because Jesus outside of what is written in the bible might have told Peter what to do.

*Luke 22:28-30
28You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. *

At the last supper Jesus tells his apostles that he is giving them a kingdom where they will sit on thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. So I guess you can look at this and see Jesus giving a kingdom to the apostles. Is this just heaven or is this a real kingdom that the Catholic Church claims to be?

If this is Heaven since only God judges us in heaven then these 12 must be gods since they can judge the tribes and sit on the seats of power in heaven…

Or it is the Catholic Church since Jesus will be dieing then ressurecting and assending to Heaven he wont physicly be on Earth anymore to show the power of God as the son of God. This allows Jesus to leave this kingdom he started on earth to his Apostles and even though he is not physically present leading the church he can garrentee that anyone who wants to see and hear the truth can through the Catholic Church. The thrones in the Kingdom Jesus gave to his apostles are those of the Catholic Church.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
with all respect, one is “filled with the Holy Spirit” for empowerment to do God’s will. Peter was NOT thus empowered in Acts 1, he was simply walking in the flesh there. Also, Jesus used known Jewish methods of interpretation. Peter was way off the mark so to speak.

Do yourself a favor study what it means to be filled with the Spirit. Peter simply was NOT in Acts 1.
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I have been so favored as to understand what it is to be “filled with the Holy Spirit”, thank you Daniel! 🙂

But, remember, Jesus specifically told Peter, “Simon Peter, Satan wishes to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed for you (Simon Peter), and once you turn back, you will help all the others” (massive paraphrasing, but I’m pretty sure I’ve got the main gist).

At Pentecost, all of the Apostles were filled with the Spirit. But Jesus specifically says that Peter will be strengthened first. You can not authoritatively say that Peter was not inspired at Acts 1.

With that being said, Luke would have indicated that Peter was teaching in error if this were so.
 
Daniel, your argument simply has no merit. Acts is all about the setting up of the new Church. The Holy Spirit would not have guided Luke to include something that could be so easily misunderstood by everyone but Daniel Marsh. Do we mis-trust everything else that happened in Acts which did not precede the phrase, “Thus, filled with the Holy Spirit, they…”.

For instance, even the divinely inspired Paul refers to the Eleven Apostles and the Daniel-Marsh-believed-to-be-mistakenly-chosen Matthias as “The Twelve”. 😉
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
JESUS
LIFE IN THE SPIRIT
HEAVEN

Basically, I am saying just living a “moral” life is NOT going to get you into heaven because OUR righteousness is rotten rags in God’s sight.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Nor is attending a church you believe has “apostolic succession” is going to get you into heaven neither.

It is a personal relationship with the real Jesus, living in the Spirit that will get you into heaven. You can walk into a garage, that does NOT make you a CAR. And, simply going to church does NOT make you a Christian. It is active faith in the real Jesus that will get you there.

Jesus himself tells us that on the Last day, there are going to be many people who think they are going to heaven, who ARE NOT going to heaven because they lack a personal relationship with Jesus.

Matthew 7:22-23 (King James Version)

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Take note, “good people” do all kinds of good moral things, BUT they will go to Hell because,

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Simply because they did NOT have that personal relationship with Jesus they will go to Hell because their personal righteousness is rotten rags in God’s sight.

So, my friend How is your relationship with Jesus going?

In short,

It is not going to the right church that is going to get you into heaven.

It is not your own morals that is going to get you into heaven.

It is only Jesus that will get you there.

:rolleyes:

Besides, I am not telling you to leave your church as you pretend.
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I like that “walk into a garage and not be a car” line! May I steal it?

Catholics understand salvation in a more comprehensive context than just “me and Jesus.” “Me and Jesus” is a *sine qua non. *But we also have His commandment to remain united in the company of His people, under the guidance of His teaching, and through the means of grace He provides with His own hand in the Sacraments. You know – the WHOLE armor of God.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
And, in doing so they directly disobeyed Jesus, who told them to WAIT.

Acts 1

1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

*6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? *

If you did not figure it out verse six proves they were still walking in the flesh because they were still looking for an earthly kingdom.

Then Jesus directly chooses PAUL.
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Huh? The WERE waiting. They were together in Jerusalem when the Spirit came upon them. I deeply respect your work on these forums, Daniel, but in this case, I thing you are struggling against the text.

You say they were “looking for an earthly kingdom.” But this was AFTER 40 days of walking with the risen Lord.

And yes: Paul received a direct revelation. But the equally direct revelation to Ananias, and Ananias’ laying hands on Paul caused him to receive the Holy Spirit.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
And, in doing so they directly disobeyed Jesus, who told them to WAIT.

Acts 1

1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

*6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? *

If you did not figure it out verse six proves they were still walking in the flesh because they were still looking for an earthly kingdom.

Then Jesus directly chooses PAUL.
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They WERE waiting. They were together waiting in Jerusalem when the Holy Spirit descended upon them all, including Matthias. And this was AFTER the eleven had walked for 40 days with the risen Lord, and all of them consented to the election of Matthias. They are still a small “insider” band. When the Holy Spirit comes, they are empowered for evangelization in a more extravagant way than they had been before.

Daniel, I very much respect your work on these forums, but I think you are really struggling against the text with your interpretation that Peter “screwed up.”

And yes PAUL is directly chosen (and so were Peter, James, John, et al). Yet Paul’s direct revelation is matched by the equally direct revelation to Ananias, by whose laying on of hands Paul receives the Holy Spirit. Paul does not preach until he has been baptized in the Church more than two years after the Church is well established in Damascus. And it is Barnabas who vouches for Paul in Jerusalem.

Peter did not “screw up.”

I understand the desire to read Acts as you do because you have the intellectual intgrity to KNOW that IF the understanding handed down through the Church (both East and West) for 2000 years is correct, then the consequences for you will be painfully disquieting. I know. I’ve been there.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Acts 12:2
And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.

If the office of an Apostle was to be passed down ( true apolostolic succession ) from man to man then why was not the Apostle James replaced and that recorded in the book of Acts?

Note: Paul became an apostle before James died.
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***Hi, Daniel Marsh!

…not being disrespectful… your problem is selective reading/interpreting of the Holy Scriptures.

You come to a passage, you check what “theologians/scholars” have to say and you run with them…

You reject God in order to get closer to your understanding of God.

FYI (1st & last time used)
(Paraphrased, unless indicated)
Bible says: The will all be taught by the Lord God – never happened, unless Jesus is God.

Bible says: I will send my Spirit upon the earth and I will write my Commandments upon their hearts and there would be no need for them to teach each other–happened, so right after Pentecost the function of the Apostles and the Church should have ceased since all Believers would have all that was needed.

Bible says: And He shall gather a Priestly Kingdom for God–happened at the Resurrection of Our Lord so no more need for Church, Priests, Bishops, Pastors, etc.

Bible says: Jesus breath the Holy Spirit on them and Told them to Go and Preach and Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit–Jesus is wrong since there would be no more need of preaching and teaching since on Pentecost the Holy Spirit will come to the earth and a nation of Priests and Kings will arise with God’s Commandments written in their hearts…

Bible says: the Law and prophets existed until Jesus–but Paul says if there’s a prophet among you let him prophesy; boy did Paul get that one wrong, eh?!

Here’s an aside:
Jesus: I have the power to lay down my life and I have the power to take it back again–but, but, you’re dead how can you do that?

Paul: For He who Resurrected Christ from the dead will resurrect you too by the Power of His Spirit–wait, Paul, you got it wrong! Jesus already said it is He who has that Power; but if it is not Jesus then who cause you’ve just said that it is the Father but then you said that it is the Holy Spirit, Paul are you mad?

Remember the Psalm: the fool says in his heart there is no God!

The Holy Scriptures are not wrong; it is our personal and “professional/theological/scholarly” interpretations, hundreds of years removed, that are wrong!:

18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.*** (St. Matthews 28:18-20–DRV)

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (St. John 20:21-23–DRV)

I am pretty sure that most Biblical versions out there would have similar wordings.

Please do not limit Yahweh, Yeshua or the Holy Spirit just because human understanding is limited.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
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