Acts of Reparation to the Virgin Mary

[Janet1983]

Why do you keep saying that? Didn’t you see the passage I quoted?

“Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand.” (2 Peter 2:10-12)

You see that St. Peter is not talking about them slandering angels or the Lord, so he’s talking about the Saints. So yes, you can sin against them, or against anyone who has died by bearing false witness against them, and other ways. And yes, as you can see, you can blaspheme Saints, not just God.

I keep saying that because your quote does not make sense in this context (apart form the fact that an important part of v. 10 seems to be missing in your quote)…

2 Peter 2:10-12
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

First of all this passage (and the following verses) are a description of false prophets given by Peter… These false teachers do not only refuse to obey the Lord (by giving themselves up to their own fleshly minds), they also despise those whom God has set in authority over them, and requires them to honor (v. 10: government, dignities). And even if you translate the dignities as “celestial beings” or “glorious ones” it does not in any way tell us that they are actually sinning against some of your “Saints”. If you want to translate it like this you might as well assume that they are slandering angels. Do you really think that someone who is human and sees the wonderful glory of God would care if the living talk bad about them? They know what is true and what is not and they have been forgiven already for that which was true. There is no blasphemy apart from the one against God.

 

[Justy90]

For the Catholic praying for the reparation of sin in the world, is part of our spirituality. Making amends and giving satisfaction for wrong and injury done to our Lord Jesus Christ or his blessed Mother is part of our prayer life. What objection would you have in doing that. When you harm members of your family or brother Christians, you serve them to make amends.

The law re quires you to make amends when you break it. There is much said and done in this world to dishonor God Father Son and Holy Spirit as well as Our Lady,Mary the Mother of God. Prayer offered up for the reparation of sin. is pleasing to God the Father.Carlan

It absolutely makes me squirm in my chair to see you put Mary in the same sort of conversation surrounding dishonoring one of the members of the Trinity. It would have when I was Catholic as well.

 

[Luke65]

First of all this passage (and the following verses) are a description of false prophets given by Peter… These false teachers do not only refuse to obey the Lord (by giving themselves up to their own fleshly minds), they also despise those whom God has set in authority over them, and requires them to honor (v. 10: government, dignities).

So you can blaspheme government officials?

And even if you translate the dignities as “celestial beings” or “glorious ones” it does not in any way tell us that they are actually sinning against some of your “Saints”. If you want to translate it like this you might as well assume that they are slandering angels.

Did you not notice that Peter mentioned the angels, but used a completely different word for the “glorious ones”? He was contrasting them - beings other than the angels who are “more powerful” than earthly beings. That leaves the Saints in Heaven and demons. And it’s not a good idea to slander either one of them, or angels for that matter. But have you not noticed the way people slander and mock our Blessed Mother, and other Saints like Paul?

Here is the exact same Greek word (doxav) used by Peter again: “the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow” (1 Peter 1:11)

This is God’s glory were talking about, and the glory that His creation and His people bring to Him:

“As for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker among you; as for our brethren, they are messengers of the churches, a glory to Christ.” (2 Corinthians 8:23)

“Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory.” (Ephesians 3:13)

The Saints are a glory to Christ.

Do you really think that someone who is human and sees the wonderful glory of God would care if the living talk bad about them? They know what is true and what is not and they have been forgiven already for that which was true.

Do you really think God Himself would care if the living talk bad about Him? God and His Saints are in perfect bliss - nothing hurts them. But Divine Justice requires that reparation be made. Will you join us in making reparation for poor sinners through works of charity, and offering up your sufferings?

There is no blasphemy apart from the one against God.

You already saw that Peter said that slandering God’s glorious ones is blasphemy, and there are plenty of other examples. Blasphemy is a theological term, so if you want to know the definition, ask the Church!

Blasphemy

 

[Janet1983]

Do you really think God Himself would care if the living talk bad about Him? God and His Saints are in perfect bliss - nothing hurts them. But Divine Justice requires that reparation be made.

That’s divine justice…
Do you now put Mary and the Trinity in the same position?
You can’t be serious here… Divine Justice, of course… those who blaspheme God are either being redeemed or condemned by the Lord.
Blasphemy is insulting the most glorious being in the entire universe! There is no way to compare that to anything else that has been created. Blasphemy is against God and as a such God will deal with it.
I do honor Mary inasmuch as I see her as an example how someone can serve God without holding anything back.
On the other hand I refuse to call her “blessed mother”, “blessed virgin Mary”, “our lady”, “queen of heaven”, “cause of our joy”, “mother of mercy”, “cause of our salvation”, “mother of sorrows”, “queen of angels”, “mediatrix”, “co-redemptrix”, or whatever you want to call her…

2 Peter 2:10-12 does not even use the term “blasphemy” (βλασφημια) by the way…
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

 

[Janet1983]

Here is the exact same Greek word (*doxa*v) used by Peter again: “the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow” (1 Peter 1:11)

Just for your information… the Greek resource you use has a little reference and information on the bottom of the page for 2 Peter 2:10:
“Δόξας (doxas) almost certainly refers to angelic beings rather than mere human authorities, though it is difficult to tell whether good or bad angels are in view. Verse 11 seems to suggest that wicked angels is what the author intends.”
It still… even if I give in to that one, does not say anything about deceased Saints… we’re still way off…

Here are a couple of glories more from your link…

doxav
1Pe: 1:11
2Pe: 2:10
Jud: 1:8

doxh
Mat: 6:29 16:27 25:31
Mar: 8:38 10:37
Luk: 9:26 9:31 12:27
Joh: 16:2 17:5
1Co: 15:41 15:43
2Co: 3:7 3:8 3:9 3:11 11:16
Phi: 4:19
Col: 3:4
1Ti: 3:16
Heb: 2:7 2:9

doxhv
Mat: 19:28 24:30 25:31
Mar: 13:26
Luk: 21:27
Joh: 11:4
Act: 7:2 22:11
Rom: 3:23 5:2 6:4 8:21 9:23
1Co: 2:8
2Co: 3:10 3:11 3:18 4:4 4:6 4:17 6:8
Eph: 1:6 1:12 1:14 1:17 1:18 3:16
Phi: 3:21
Col: 1:11 1:27
2Th: 1:9 2:14
1Ti: 1:11
2Ti: 2:10
Tit: 2:13
Heb: 1:3 3:3 9:5
Jam: 2:1
1Pe: 4:13 4:14 5:1 5:4
2Pe: 1:3 1:17
Jud: 1:24
Rev: 15:8 18:1

doxan
Mat: 4:8
Luk: 2:32 4:6 9:32 17:18 24:26
Joh: 1:14 2:11 5:41 5:44 7:18 8:50 9:24 11:40 12:41 12:43 17:22 17:24
Act: 7:55 12:23
Rom: 1:23 2:7 3:7 4:20 8:18 9:23 15:7
1Co: 2:7 10:31
2Co: 1:20 3:7 3:18 4:15 8:19
Phi: 1:11 2:11
1Th: 2:6 2:12
Heb: 2:10
1Pe: 1:7 1:21 5:10
2Pe: 1:17
Rev: 4:9 4:11 5:12 11:13 14:7 16:9 19:7 21:11 21:24 21:26

 

[Luke65]

That’s divine justice…
Do you now put Mary and the Trinity in the same position?
You can’t be serious here… Divine Justice, of course… those who blaspheme God are either being redeemed or condemned by the Lord.

Divine Justice requires that every sin against our fellow creatures be paid for - that is the Word of God:

“Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.” (Colossians 3:25)

Will you now ask God if He’s putting Mary in the same position as Him?

Blasphemy is insulting the most glorious being in the entire universe! There is no way to compare that to anything else that has been created.Blasphemy is against God and as a such God will deal with it.

Hmm, should I believe you or God?

blasphemeo

2 Peter 2:10-12 does not even use the term “blasphemy”

Try again.

 

[Good_Fella]

We can’t go ahead and ask Mary for forgiveness of our sins.

But we can ask her to forgive us for the sins we have committed against her Immaculate Heart. Think of all the pain we have caused her by offending her Son or dishonouring her through indifference.

Our sins are not against Mary to begin with. All sins are primarily vertical and thereby against God.

“Whatsoever you do to the least of my brethren you do unto me.”

When one offends the Mother, she offends the Son.

We cannot sin against Mary as she is not among us and **she is not God **either.

Mary is a living member in the mystical body of Christ, and she is the Mother of God. The higher the dignity of a person, the greater in degree is the offence committed against her.

We cannot sin against Mary as all of our sins are vertical (against God) and most of them are horizontal (against our fellow men).

But I thought you said we cannot sin against our brethren since they aren’t divine. Are you now suggesting that Mary is neither divine nor human, now that we sometimes can sin against our neighbour?

We cannot sin against Mary or anybody else who is deceased. Because we cannot sin against her we cannot ask her for forgiveness.

Mary exists in heaven body and soul, having been assumed by the power of her divine Son, who honours and loves his blesssed mother.

Anyway, one can sin against the living or the deceased:

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”
Exodus 20, 16

PAX :tiphat:

 

[Janet1983]

Try again.

Ok… Here you go… Where does it say “blaspheme” in there??
μαλιστα δε τους οπισω σαρκος εν επιθυμια μιασμου πορευομενους και κυριοτητος καταφρονουντας τολμηται αυθαδεις δοξας ου τρεμουσιν βλασφημουντες

The translation of what you (might) mean is “to speak evil of” and that is not the same in English as “blaspheming”…
Suppose I’d go ahead and use a couple of florid words to rant about you to my husband… I wouldn’t be blaspheming you… I would speak evil of you, maybe even gossip, but that wouldn’t be blasphemy towards you… depending on the choice of words it might be blasphemy against God however…
(I guess that’s why I refrain from using these words, and this is only an example…)

 

[Janet1983]

Mary exists in heaven body and soul, having been assumed by the power of her divine Son, who honours and loves his blesssed mother.

Anyway, one can sin against the living or the deceased:

Do you really think that this “argument” is any good in a Protestant context? I don’t believe that Mary was taken up with her body and her soul…
Do you go ahead and ask deceased relatives for forgiveness for things you did during your lifetime or things that would disappoint them? They are neither among us as humans nor are they God… why should you?

 

[Good_Fella]

All sins are primarily vertical and thereby against God.

“If you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.”
Matthew 5, 23-24

PAX

 

[Carlan]

Janet,I would like you to read this, thank you.
Vatican 11.
The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ but rather shows its power…in no way does it impede the immediate union of the faithful with Christ: rather it fosters it"(cfLG60) How could it ever be thought that Mary, who was so deeply dedicated to the cause of her Son and united with him in one single aim, could be an obstacle in the relationship of the faithful with her Jesus? It is she who has given the world its only Redeemer and Mediator, who in her role as Mother opens to all men the way to her Son and introduces them to knowledge and love. It is she who , “when she is being preached and venerated …summons the faithful to her Son and his service, and to love for the Father”.This all comes about through the positive will of God, who willed to give the world its Redeemer by means of Mary. " When the time has fully come, God sent forth his Son born of a woman" -we read in St, Paul(Gal4:4 Since she is so closely linked to the Savior, Mary fulfils her function as mediatrix in the highest degree, but always in a way subordinate to him, “All the saving influences of the Blessed Virgin on men”-defines the Council-“flow forth…from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rest on his mediation, depend entirely on it, and draw all their power from it” (LG60) This in no way prevents Mary’s mediation from being real and most precious… We may and should resort to her with full confidence without any fear of confiding too much in her whom Jesus himself gave us as mother. The Liturgy likewise urges us to address ourselves to God through the powerful intercession of Mary: "O God…grant that we may be helped in coming to you by the intercession of her whom we believe to be the Mother of God.

Carlan

 

[Good_Fella]

Do you really think that this “argument” is any good in a Protestant context? I don’t believe that Mary was taken up with her body and her soul…

Still, in the “Protestant context”, I presume, one can sin against the deceased by bearing false witness against them posthumously. You claimed that one cannot sin against the deceased - a false assertion.

Do you go ahead and ask deceased relatives for forgiveness for things you did during your lifetime or things that would disappoint them? They are neither among us as humans nor are they God… why should you?

If my deceased relatives happen to be in heaven, I’m sure God will convey the message. Meanwhile, God would forgive me if my contrition were perfect knowing that my deceased relatives have forgiven me as well being in the presence of love.

PAX :tanning:

 

[Carlan]

Janet,

I ask you, do you believe Mary and all the Saints in heaven are alive, living souls? and that they are connected to us, Christ’s Church on earth, all part of His Kingdom?
If you believe that, what makes you think we cannot ask them, especially Mary the mother of Jesus, to interceed to the Father for us through Jesus our mediator.? Do you believe she cannot offer our prayers and suffering, the suffering of war , the suffering of the innocent babes of abortion, all suffering in this world, as redemptive for the sin of our time.

Carlan

 

[Luke65]

Ok… Here you go… Where does it say “blaspheme” in there??
μαλιστα δε τους οπισω σαρκος εν επιθυμια μιασμου πορευομενους και κυριοτητος καταφρονουντας τολμηται αυθαδεις δοξας ου τρεμουσιν βλασφημουντες

The translation of what you (might) mean is “to speak evil of” and that is not the same in English as “blaspheming”…
Suppose I’d go ahead and use a couple of florid words to rant about you to my husband… I wouldn’t be blaspheming you… I would speak evil of you, maybe even gossip, but that wouldn’t be blasphemy towards you… depending on the choice of words it might be blasphemy against God however…
(I guess that’s why I refrain from using these words, and this is only an example…)

Janet, God used the same word - blasphemeo - for words or acts against Him or against certain creatures of His. Look at any English dictionary and you’ll see the same thing.

 

[Luke65]

Do you really think that this “argument” is any good in a Protestant context? I don’t believe that Mary was taken up with her body and her soul…
Do you go ahead and ask deceased relatives for forgiveness for things you did during your lifetime or things that would disappoint them? They are neither among us as humans nor are they God… why should you?

Have you not heard?

“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:27)

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.” (Hebrews 12:1)

“A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.” (Revelation 12:1)

Hail Kecharitomene!