Ad Mariam per Iesum?

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I don’t mind venerating the Saints or Mary. However, often I’ve heard it said Ad Iesum per Mariam. I wonder if what is really being done in practice is Ad Mariam per Iesum. I was at a little rock study and during the prayer sharing time. Someone commented on how when their loved one was dying mary was there to take the person to purgatory. And having been protestant for many years I automatically made a mental note. Later I thought about it with the discussion of possibly making the dogma for co-redemptrix that I wondered if Marian Veneration was over done in the Latin rite. I fear it is. In the co-redemptrix debate will Mary be considered as causal? Already, we honor her which is good. We should seek to be like her in obedience to God giving of ourselves even in sorrow which btw is where Mary gets her name. I don’t even have a problem asking her to intercede on our behalf as I would anyone else. However, where will it stop? Co-Redemptrix really? Will we ever get to the point of elevating this humble woman to the level of Christ? Already there are legends that we attribute to Mary being Christ like such as going to the temple until she was 13. The Jews do something similiar in their Talmud they put Abraham in a cave waiting for Nimrod exocutioners to miss him and spare him death based on a prophesy to Nimrod. It artificially links Abraham to Moses. It doesn’t seem enought that Abraham obeyed God and Moses is decended from him. More had to be applied to Abraham. Are we not doing the same thing with this wonderful woman. This Saint who allowed not only for the Glory of the incarnation to be wrought in her but obey even in suffering the loss of her dearly beloved son to such a cruel exocution on a cross? That we honor her as Queen of Heaven but will we replace Jesus with Mary? Already many of the improperly Catechised Catholics do this. Will the protestants finally have validity in saying we create idols? Have the latins takien this too far? Or will they?
 
I understand the point you’re trying to make.

However, I will simply say what I have always said.

Mariology is part of Christology. It’s ultimately about who JESUS is.
 
Since we are a fallen race, every good and true thing will be taken too far, be distorted by some. And that goes for proper love and veneration of Mary, and proper understanding of her place in God’s plan of salvation. But I don’t think the problem is as big as you suggest. Legends are not doctrine. And the so-called Fifth Marian Dogma seems to have no particular support in the Vatican or among the bishops. It seems to be a rather fringe effort (and a very wierd one too, IMO, having people essentially petition and lobby the Church to declare a dogma they desire).
 
My worry is that the fringe will gain acceptance. Already there are practices that are off the cuff with regard to this veneration. Weren’t their letters to the bishops on whether this should be doctrine? And with the Virgin being the Patron St. of the America’s don’t you think particularily in this venue that and over indulgence of veneration will lead to idolatry. I compare certain spanish feast to the Lady with the absence of our Lord.
 
Mary is only great because of what God did for her.

As Saint Louis-Marie de Montfort wrote, ‘everytime we say Mary, she says Jesus’.
To praise great artists, we praise their works. To praise God, we praise what He has done and who He has created.

Yes, it can go a bit overboard and fall into superstition or idolatry, but that is not the fault of the Church. I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of the Theotokos as ‘Co-redemptorix’ but I fear that it will be misunderstood by many…however, that being said, is up to those who misunderstand it, to find out what it truly means.

We are all co-redeemers in a sense as we are called to be channels of grace for other people’s salvation.
 
stuart12 said:
I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of the Theotokos as ‘Co-redemptorix’ but I fear that it will be misunderstood by many…however, that being said, is up to those who misunderstand it, to find out what it truly means.

We are all co-redeemers in a sense as we are called to be channels of grace for other people’s salvation.
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That brings up an interesting point. About none of the four Marian Dogmas can we say “we are all XYZ in a sense”.

We cannot say that we are in a sense the Mother of God.
We cannot say that we in a sense are ever-virgin, having conceived of the Holy Spirit
We cannot say that we are in a sense Immaculately Conceived.
We cannot say that we in a sense are or will be bodily assumed into heaven.

And yet, as you say, we can in a sense say that we are co-redeemers. So the title tells us nothing unique about Mary and thus about Jesus, unlike the other four dogmas. I think on that difference alone the “Fifth Marian Dogma” is highly suspect.
 
Yes that’s true, therefore all we could say is that ‘Mary cooperated in Christ’s redeeming work in the highest degree’. Not too elegantly phrased.
 
VociMike said:
That brings up an interesting point. About none of the four Marian Dogmas can we say “we are all XYZ in a sense”.

We cannot say that we are in a sense the Mother of God.
We cannot say that we in a sense are ever-virgin, having conceived of the Holy Spirit
We cannot say that we are in a sense Immaculately Conceived.
We cannot say that we in a sense are or will be bodily assumed into heaven.

And yet, as you say, we can in a sense say that we are co-redeemers. So the title tells us nothing unique about Mary and thus about Jesus, unlike the other four dogmas. I think on that difference alone the “Fifth Marian Dogma” is highly suspect.
Click to expand...
You’re kind of on track yet I believe in a bodily resurrection.
 
stuart12 said:
Mary is only great because of what God did for her.

As Saint Louis-Marie de Montfort wrote, ‘everytime we say Mary, she says Jesus’.
To praise great artists, we praise their works. To praise God, we praise what He has done and who He has created.

Yes, it can go a bit overboard and fall into superstition or idolatry, but that is not the fault of the Church. I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of the Theotokos as ‘Co-redemptorix’ but I fear that it will be misunderstood by many…however, that being said, is up to those who misunderstand it, to find out what it truly means.

We are all co-redeemers in a sense as we are called to be channels of grace for other people’s salvation.
Click to expand...
Well, that’s the issue isn’t it. I do have a problem with Co-redemtrix especially if Mary is considered to be Cause. That makes her God. And the problem with many Catholics is that they don’t know their faith. In this year of Mary one of the goals is to bring non attenders back to mass. But the very reason these are non-attenders is lack of knowledge of their own faith. And though Our Lady is wonderful and should be respected idolatry is serious and the faithful should be properly taught. Rather than turning blind eye in hopes that they will eventually “get it right”.
 
stuart12 said:
Yes that’s true, therefore all we could say is that ‘Mary cooperated in Christ’s redeeming work in the highest degree’. Not too elegantly phrased.
Click to expand...
Quite right. She did everything that God ever asked of her, in total cooperation with his grace.
 
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