Ad Orientum

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Sirach2 said:
I have read his opinion here. His opinion did not convince me that the Church is in error by permitting the newer orientation. It is offensive to even imply such a concept. When the Church sees fit to call forth the older A.O., I will be happy to assent to it. Until then, I hold my deepest reservations against those who dispute the lawful right of clergy to celebrate V.P.
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Now please don’t think I’m saying the clergy have no right for VP. THey do (obviously). What I’m talking about is should AO be the norm.
 
codefro said:
Now please don’t think I’m saying the clergy have no right for VP. THey do (obviously). What I’m talking about is should AO be the norm.
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No. Emphatically. It is the norm for EF. VP is the universal norm for OF. Why would you expect that the 95% of churches that use VP should revert to the manner of celebrating as the 5% that are attached to the EF?
 
Saints_Alive said:
I doubt the Holy Spirit is ok with liturgical abuse.
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Kindly avoid that designation. This is not Fisheaaters, Whitey. You folks all portray that the OF is full of abuse, yet fail to recognize that the OF is a lawful liturgy that is equal in sublimity as the EF.
 
Sirach2 said:
No. Emphatically. It is the norm for EF. VP is the universal norm for OF. Why would you expect that the 95% of churches that use VP should revert to the manner of celebrating as the 5% that are attached to the EF?
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Sirach, I do protest some of your false assumptions here. First, there is no rubric that assumes the priest says the Mass VP. So it’s not OF-VP and EF-AO. Second, I don’t think many are saying the OF is invalid or rife with abuse. I will stand up and argue alongside you to Catholics who make those assumptions. Also, why would I think? Well, my personal observation, is that yes EF masses and OF- AO masses are the minority. No doubt. YET, there is a new generation of priests that are fascinated with the EF mass. One of our American cardinals is a champion of the EF. So why? I just see that it will happen. I personally would like to see it in my lifetime. I don’t think asking for AO as a norm is harsh. I can sympathize if this post was “ABOLISH THE OF” as being offensive. I myself attend the OF mass on weekdays an get much out of it. So I don’t hate the OF Mass. I seem to notice you have an equivalency with wanting AO to mean “I hate the OF”. If so, please do not make that assumption. Could you imagine how some change like that could make traditionalists stop bashing the OF and maybe see it in a new light? I don’t know if it would, but I think it could blur the polarized edges of catholic extremes on both ends.
 
Sirach2 said:
Kindly avoid that designation. This is not Fisheaaters, Whitey. You folks all portray that the OF is full of abuse, yet fail to recognize that the OF is a lawful liturgy that is equal in sublimity as the EF.
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What sort of troll post is that ? And what’s up with the racist bit ?
 
codefro said:
Sirach, I do protest some of your false assumptions here. First, there is no rubric that assumes the priest says the Mass VP. So it’s not OF-VP and EF-AO.
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I refer you back to your other thread this week where I specifically stated that both AO and VP are permitted in either liturgy. That being said, do you have a problem admitting that out of perhaps 99% of OF liturgies being celebrated, only 1% of the clergy celebrates AO? My comment was not pulled out of a hat.
I seem to notice you have an equivalency with wanting AO to mean “I hate the OF”. If so, please do not make that assumption.
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You are putting unfair motives on my post that I never stated, nor did I imply it. I ask that you be fair in your judgments, please.
 
Saints_Alive said:
What sort of troll post is that ? And what’s up with the racist bit ?
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I don’t have a clue what you are talking about. What is a troll post? What is a racist bit? I simply recoil when FE posters allege abuse at every turn of the tide - that’s all. You did bring it up, alleging that priests are so abusive that they need the manual.
 
Sirach2 said:
I refer you back to your other thread this week where I specifically stated that both AO and VP are permitted in either liturgy. That being said, do you have a problem admitting that out of perhaps 99% of OF liturgies being celebrated, only 1% of the clergy celebrates AO? My comment was not pulled out of a hat.

You are putting unfair motives on my post that I never stated, nor did I imply it. I ask that you be fair in your judgments, please.
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I forgot to also write “If this is a false analogy, please let me know and I apologize in advance.” So I apologize. I am genuinely interested in a dialogue and not for arguing. So I do not want to have false ideas of what you are saying. I am not willing to admit 99% vs. 1% because I do not honestly know the answer. That seems awfully technical without a link to some sort of proof. I did say I believe they are the majority. I also said it is my personal opinion that it is going to change.
 
codefro said:
I forgot to also write “If this is a false analogy, please let me know and I apologize in advance.” So I apologize. I am genuinely interested in a dialogue and not for arguing. So I do not want to have false ideas of what you are saying. I am not willing to admit 99% vs. 1% because I do not honestly know the answer. That seems awfully technical without a link to some sort of proof. I did say I believe they are the majority. I also said it is my personal opinion that it is going to change.
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Thank you. Be at peace, we’re ok.

Ps. Fisheaters is a well-known trad website that needs no other explanation, if you have read the posts there. Whitey is a member using Saints Alive here.

We’re getting totally derailed. I think we have finished our discussion, so I’ll be exiting.
 
Sirach2 said:
I don’t have a clue what you are talking about. What is a troll post? What is a racist bit? I simply recoil when FE posters allege abuse at every turn of the tide - that’s all. You did bring it up, alleging that priests are so abusive that they need the manual.
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My post on the matter is there in black and white. You are simply making up what you say I said there. Anyone can look at my post and see that.

I’m not sure what sort of issue you have with me, but ever since I’ve been here as a member, you have posted baited slurs and such. Your putting words in my mouth here is proof of that.

As far as FishEaters forum, I don’t have a clue what you are talking about and neither do you.

I’m reporting your third badgering post here and placing you on my ignore list.
 
edwest2 said:
"In his outstanding book, “Spirit of the Liturgy,” Cardinal Ratzinger wrote of the ancient and venerable practice of offering the Holy Sacrifice ad orientem, in which both priest and people face east:

“It has been the practice in the entire Church, East and West from time immemorial. Contrary to a prevailing misconception, there is no evidence for celebration of Mass versus populum in the first nineteen centuries of the Church’s history, with rare exceptions.”

“Despite all the variations in practice that have taken place far into the second millennium, one thing has remained clear for the whole of Christendom: praying toward the east is a tradition that goes back to the beginning. Moreover, it is a fundamental expression of the Christian synthesis of cosmos and history, of being rooted in the once-for-all events of salvation history while going out to meet the Lord who is to come again.”

Peace,
Ed
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Thank you Ed 🙂 God bless you.
 
MODERATOR NOTICE

Stop arguing or I’ll close the thread. Please report any further arguments.

Thank You
 
Sirach2 said:
the OF is a lawful liturgy that is equal in sublimity as the EF.
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^^This is probably the most Truth I’ve seen on this forum ever, Thank you for this post^^

To the OP and original question.

I am a person who gets “offended” per se about AO. This is why: VII was an infallible conference. They decided infallibly that we should use the OF. I do agree with B16 on his proposition of granting the EF if asked. Its not that the EF or AO upsets me, it is the liturgical abuse of using it when we are not allowed to.

I would like to see holier people (me included) and if EF does it for some, excellent. But for me and for many we need the OF because … just because…

I hope you see my opinion as I do. Liturgical Abuse is Liturgical abuse no doubt about that.
 
andy92 said:
VII was an infallible conference.
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No it wasn’t. The only infallible parts of the documents are the ones in which they repeat previous teachings.
They decided infallibly that we should use the OF.
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No they didn’t. The Novus Ordo came out 5 years after the council ended and is thanks to a liturgical committee.
I do agree with B16 on his proposition of granting the EF if asked. Its not that the EF or AO upsets me, it is the liturgical abuse of using it when we are not allowed to
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You’ve clearly not understood Summorum Ponticum, Universae Ecclesia or even the document from the 80’s entitled Ecclesia Dei Adflcita.

Nobody needs permission to say the traditional Mass. Ever. Nobody needs permission to only say the Traditional Mass. Ever. Every Diocese should, by orders of Rome, have a traditional Mass every day of the year available for the faithful.

I would like to see holier people (me included) and if EF does it for some, excellent. But for me and for many we need the OF because … just because…

God Bless you,but you are incredibly misinformed.
 
OraLabora said:
SP does not say this. At all.
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Didn’t say it did. At all.

If you weren’t so aggressively anti-traddy you’d acquaint yourself with all the relevant documents associated with the traditional Mass that the Church has released. Here is a good start.

It doesn’t begin and end with Summorum Pontificum.
 
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