Adam and Eve and Evoltion

[Ammonius_Saccus]

Since we know from scientific study that death existed in the world before humans what does that say about death and original sin? If death was a part of the natural world before the man even existed to sin, how could God’s creation be prefect?

 

[runandsew]

Since we know from scientific study that death existed in the world before humans what does that say about death and original sin? If death was a part of the natural world before the man even existed to sin, how could God’s creation be prefect?

two things

1. We don’t know this for a fact, this would be a scientific theory.
2. The bible is not a science book,
   
   The bible tells us why God created us, and science can tell us how he created us.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Since we know from scientific study that death existed in the world before humans what does that say about death and original sin? If death was a part of the natural world before the man even existed to sin, how could God’s creation be prefect?

I have not heard an answer for “death before OS” from the Catholic perspective so Im interested to see how this is explained.

Also the fact that in evolution Adam and Eve were conceived in sub-humans is another factor that causes me to question evolution.

 

[Hastrman]

Since we know from scientific study that death existed in the world before humans what does that say about death and original sin? If death was a part of the natural world before the man even existed to sin, how could God’s creation be prefect?

Because Satan fell before man. His fall damaged the whole of creation, made it mortal; Adam’s fall made our natures susceptible to sin. We were already slightly damaged before that by virtue of living in a universe Satan had fallen in.

Incidentally, my theory of why Satan’s fall brought death into the world is this (it’s Thomistic philosophy, so feel free to bail out any time): Material beings are mortal because they have traits, accidents, in addition to their identities, forms. The accidents can be separated from the form, and that is why they die.

Is it possible that before Satan fell, matter was not so easily separated from its essence? And might this condition be restored on the Last Day? That’s the only philosophically sound interpretation I can think of that makes possible the Resurrection of the body.

 

[Orogeny]

Because the death that came as a result of sin is spiritual death. As humans, our bodies are made of two parts - the physical body and the soul. It is our immortal souls that are at risk because of sin.

Physical death existed since the first living thing was created. That organism didn’t have the immortal soul we have, so the idea of death as described in Genesis does not apply to it or any other non-human organisms.

Peace

Tim

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Ammonius,

Do you believe that our Spiritual God exists outside of physical time which He created? God is Omni-Present to the whole of physical time from before creation to beyond the end of time. This is how God can tell those of us bound by physical time what is instore in the future.

I believe that it is illogical to think that God was sitting around twiddling His thumbs for one hundred, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, gazillion years to waiting to bring the primary focus of His creation, free willed, love for God capable, man, into existance.

Before creation there was no matter, energy, empty space or physical time which is a rated measure of the change between these three. God brought empty space, matter, energy and time into existance around His focus point of, love for God capable, free willed man. Both infinite past physical time and infinite future physical time flow out from God’s focus point of Adam who lived thousands or tens of thousands of years ago.

God is not bound by the confines of physical time in anyway. If God wills that the whole of physical time reconfigures to a new set of peramiters, the whole of physical time, both infinite past and infinite future, reconfigures to this new set of perameters. Infinite created physical time past must bend to the Power of our All Powerful God.

Can we prove that this is the case? No. Can we prove that our Omni Powerful, Omni-Present to the whole of physical time God is incapable of this? No. In fact to do so would be a lack of faith in the Power of God. All those who faithfully believe in the Word of God on creation can do is to accept that it is as our All Powerful God says it is.

An infinite physical time past without death in the set of paramiters, changed to an infinite past with death in the set of paramiters, is nothing for our All Powerful God to acomplish. Getting humans, bestowed with freedom from the control of God’s will, to choose to love and obey God, on the other hand, is something God has struggled with throughout the ages.

 

[Seamus_Sully]

Since we know from scientific study that death existed in the world before humans what does that say about death and original sin? If death was a part of the natural world before the man even existed to sin, how could God’s creation be prefect?

Please forgive the tough question: Do you know this from personal research or do you BELIEVE THE SCIENTISTS that you read?

I mean it, too. Please forgive the tough question.

 

[JimG]

Creation was not ontologically perfect; only God is ontologically perfect. That is, He possesses perfection as the essence of his being. Creation is something less than God, and thus imperfect.

One can speak of Adam and Eve before the Fall as possessed of the perfection of integrity, in that their emotions and intellect were in balance, and not prone to sin. Sin brought about the loss of this integrity resulting in an inclination to do wrong. (Only mankind had need of such inner integrity because we are a composite of body and soul. Animals and molecules and organic compounds cannot sin.)

At what point in the evolution of the universe and the earth did God creat Adam and Eve? We do not know, and the bible does not say. We do know that written history begins sometime later than 6000 BC so one could guess. But it’s not really a matter that either science or religion can determine–the bible says nothing about it, and science cannot infer the existence of the soul, or is rather not allowed to, in early hominids.

 

[Melchior]

Since we know from scientific study that death existed in the world before humans what does that say about death and original sin? If death was a part of the natural world before the man even existed to sin, how could God’s creation be prefect?

It only tells us that science has it’s timetable wrong. Death entered the world through the Fall. I don’t think the ancients would have called rotten fruit and microscopic decay that is reproductive in nature and beneficial,“death”. Science constantly adjusts it’s timetable, even as much as every couple of years. All this says too me is that science has it wrong on this. But that’s okay, science always adjusts and evolves.

The only mistake people make is when they think all contemporary science is final, case closed science. What is considered likely fact at one point in history, even modern history can change dramatically in a decade or two. In my life time (I am in my thirties) science predicted a new Ice age. Now people are debating the causes of global warming. Some insist it is man-made. Some Climatologists say the whole idea is bunk. As with both areas of scientific inquiry it is more politics and money than science that wins the argument these days.

The Church (through the Bible) tells us death entered the world through Adam’s sin. God said it… that settles it. Science needs to catch up to revelation.

Mel

 

[Orogeny]

It only tells us that science has it’s timetable wrong. Death entered the world through the Fall. I don’t think the ancients would have called rotten fruit and microscopic decay that is reproductive in nature and beneficial,“death”. Science constantly adjusts it’s timetable, even as much as every couple of years. All this says too me is that science has it wrong on this. But that’s okay, science always adjusts and evolves.

The only mistake people make is when they think all contemporary science is final, case closed science. What is considered likely fact at one point in history, even modern history can change dramatically in a decade or two. In my life time (I am in my thirties) science predicted a new Ice age. Now people are debating the causes of global warming. Some insist it is man-made. Some Climatologists say the whole idea is bunk. As with both areas of scientific inquiry it is more politics and money than science that wins the argument these days.

The Church (through the Bible) tells us death entered the world through Adam’s sin. God said it… that settles it. Science needs to catch up to revelation.

Mel

Your analogy with global climate predictions is flawed. When looking at the history of life on earth, we don’t have to make predictions - the evidence is right in front of our faces. Life predates the first appearance of humans. Animals and plants lived and, yes, died long before humans showed up.

Perhaps instead of science catching up with revelation, your personal revelation needs to catch up with science.

Peace

Tim

 

[John_Hiner]

Since we know from scientific study that death existed in the world before humans what does that say about death and original sin? If death was a part of the natural world before the man even existed to sin, how could God’s creation be prefect?

One difficulty with this sort of discussion is its breadth. It brings a wide range of ideas together to be considered all at once: ideas about anthropology, evolution, psychology, Theology, Biblical exegesis, Religion, the Faith, etc. In most circumstances, these ideas are developed separately and discussed in their own contexts, with their own assumptions and vocabularies.

Truth is truth. So, there can be no contradiction between these areas of thinking, if they are properly developed and reflect the truth. However, the work of bringing them together demands a great deal of circumspection and care.

This is important work. It is a proper activity for a thoughtful person who has the leisure and liberal arts to do it. However, it cannot be done casually or without the refinement that it requires, not least of all, in the basic act of translation between the customary areas of thought involved.

One danger is “eclecticism” as mentioned by Pope John Paul II in Fides et Ratio:

“The first goes by the name of eclecticism, by which is meant the approach of those who, in research, teaching and argumentation, even in theology, tend to use individual ideas drawn from different philosophies, without concern for their internal coherence, their place within a system or their historical context. They therefore run the risk of being unable to distinguish the part of truth of a given doctrine from elements of it which may be erroneous or ill-suited to the task at hand. An extreme form of eclecticism appears also in the rhetorical misuse of philosophical terms to which some theologians are given at times. Such manipulation does not help the search for truth and does not train reason—whether theological or philosophical—to formulate arguments seriously and scientifically. The rigorous and far-reaching study of philosophical doctrines, their particular terminology and the context in which they arose, helps to overcome the danger of eclecticism and makes it possible to integrate them into theological discourse in a way appropriate to the task.” (Fides et Ratio, 86.)

Even if one were to read the sentence “Death entered the world through Adam’s sin.” One would be given some pause in considering when this idea was framed and in what language. One cannot even assume what meaning is intended here by the word “world,” when one considers that “world” is from “O.E. woruld, worold “human existence, the affairs of life,” also “the human race, mankind,” a word peculiar to Gmc. languages (cf. O.S. werold, O.Fris. warld, Du. wereld, O.N. verold, O.H.G. weralt, Ger. Welt), with a literal sense of “age of man,” from P.Gmc. *wer “man” (O.E. wer, still in werewolf; see virile) + *ald “age” (see old).” (See, www.etymonline.com.)

If “world” is taken in this sense, and that might be the literal meaning, depending on when the idea was framed, the sentence might be taken to mean “Death entered the consciousness of men through the sin of Adam.” This is a very different proposition than the one considered in biology.

And this is only the beginning of the issues which are invoked by this topic.

I think the discussion would be fruitful and interesting, if we are able to give it the time and depth of consideration it demands.

Pax Christi vobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

One difficulty with this sort of discussion is its breadth. It brings a wide range of ideas together to be considered all at once: ideas about anthropology, evolution, psychology, Theology, Biblical exegesis, Religion, the Faith, etc. In most circumstances, these ideas are developed separately and discussed in their own contexts, with their own assumptions and vocabularies.

Truth is truth. So, there can be no contradiction between these areas of thinking, if they are properly developed and reflect the truth. However, the work of bringing them together demands a great deal of circumspection and care.

This is important work. It is a proper activity for a thoughtful person who has the leisure and liberal arts to do it. However, it cannot be done casually or without the refinement that it requires, not least of all, in the basic act of translation between the customary areas of thought involved.

One danger is “eclecticism” as mentioned by Pope John Paul II in Fides et Ratio:

“The first goes by the name of eclecticism, by which is meant the approach of those who, in research, teaching and argumentation, even in theology, tend to use individual ideas drawn from different philosophies, without concern for their internal coherence, their place within a system or their historical context. They therefore run the risk of being unable to distinguish the part of truth of a given doctrine from elements of it which may be erroneous or ill-suited to the task at hand. An extreme form of eclecticism appears also in the rhetorical misuse of philosophical terms to which some theologians are given at times. Such manipulation does not help the search for truth and does not train reason—whether theological or philosophical—to formulate arguments seriously and scientifically. The rigorous and far-reaching study of philosophical doctrines, their particular terminology and the context in which they arose, helps to overcome the danger of eclecticism and makes it possible to integrate them into theological discourse in a way appropriate to the task.” (Fides et Ratio, 86.)

Even if one were to read the sentence “Death entered the world through Adam’s sin.” One would be given some pause in considering when this idea was framed and in what language. One cannot even assume what meaning is intended here by the word “world,” when one considers that “world” is from “O.E. woruld, worold “human existence, the affairs of life,” also “the human race, mankind,” a word peculiar to Gmc. languages (cf. O.S. werold, O.Fris. warld, Du. wereld, O.N. verold, O.H.G. weralt, Ger. Welt), with a literal sense of “age of man,” from P.Gmc. *wer “man” (O.E. wer, still in werewolf; see virile) + *ald “age” (see old).” (See, www.etymonline.com.)

If “world” is taken in this sense, and that might be the literal meaning, depending on when the idea was framed, the sentence might be taken to mean “Death entered the consciousness of men through the sin of Adam.” This is a very different proposition than the one considered in biology.

And this is only the beginning of the issues which are invoked by this topic.

I think the discussion would be fruitful and interesting, if we are able to give it the time and depth of consideration it demands.

This just seems like a way to rationalize away contradiction between religious statements and the facts we know about the world.

 

[Philthy]

Since we know from scientific study that death existed in the world before humans what does that say about death and original sin?

It says that non-human death is not a function of original sin.
But who cares?
OP:

If death was a part of the natural world before the man even existed to sin, how could God’s creation be prefect?

Eternal life is a unique characteristic of humans. Death of a mortal creature such as an animal does not mean it was not perfect, it simply means that is the way God created them. Unless, of course, you can tell me why it is imperfect for an animal to die I see no reason to believe that hints at imperfection. In fact, your arbitrary description of it as imperfect raises the question of why you would even have such a notion of perfection - from where did you get it??

 

[John_Hiner]

This just seems like a way to rationalize away contradiction between religious statements and the facts we know about the world.

Dear Ammonius Saccus:

I agree that it can seem like rationalization. Worse still, it can become actual rationalization, if one is not careful about staying in touch with the substance of what is being discussed.

Of course, appropriate rationalization is an important skill. It is essential to learning any new thing, and it is therefore fundamental to the empirical sciences. However, your point is well taken: it cannot be inappropriately applied and allowed to degenerate into a sort of whitewash or double-talk.

The complexity of maintaining a way of talking about subjects, so that they can be coordinated with all other subjects, without distortions due to specialized language, which develops in different disciplines, was likely one of the reasons underlying the Church’s fostering of universities.

Unfortunately, the temptation to take short cuts, or to merely ignore most other areas of thought in favor of one’s specialty, has undermined the ideal of the university and has cast liberal arts into disuse – much to the loss of those who want to have an integrated view of the many areas of life – the sort of integrity of perspective which the Catholic Faith demands and makes possible.

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner

 

[Liberian]

Since we know from scientific study that death existed in the world before humans what does that say about death and original sin? If death was a part of the natural world before the man even existed to sin, how could God’s creation be prefect?

Ammonius Saccus,

My explanation is “reverse temporal engineering.” The effects of the Fall worked their way backwards in time as well as forwards.

• Liberian

 

[rossum]

One difficulty with this sort of discussion is its breadth. It brings a wide range of ideas together to be considered all at once: ideas about anthropology, evolution, psychology, Theology, Biblical exegesis, Religion, the Faith, etc. In most circumstances, these ideas are developed separately and discussed in their own contexts, with their own assumptions and vocabularies.

Thankyou for an interesting and thoughtful post.

Truth is truth. So, there can be no contradiction between these areas of thinking, if they are properly developed and reflect the truth.

Truth is not always truth. Scientific truth in particular has a provisional nature, which does not always sit easily with the more absolute definitions that tend to be used in theology and philosophy. Some of the difficulties between science and theology arise from the explicitly changing nature of scientific truth, and the generally unchanging nature of theological and philosophical truth.

It can also be noted that the basis of knowledge for science is changing - the scientific literature is constantly growing. Whereas for theology the basis of knowledge is fixed, it stopped growing after the last books were added to Scripture.

This is important work. It is a proper activity for a thoughtful person who has the leisure and liberal arts to do it. However, it cannot be done casually or without the refinement that it requires, not least of all, in the basic act of translation between the customary areas of thought involved.

As well as leisure and the liberal arts, the thoughtful person will also need some scientific background.

I think the discussion would be fruitful and interesting, if we are able to give it the time and depth of consideration it demands.

Agreed.

rossum

 

[Chipper]

Since we know from scientific study that death existed in the world before humans what does that say about death and original sin? If death was a part of the natural world before the man even existed to sin, how could God’s creation be prefect?

Well, I don’t think we do know that death existed before Adam and Eve. Science cannot prove this or disprove it. Never will.

All the musings on this subject presuppose that the time line given in the bible is the same timeline given in science.

The bible says God created in 6 days, Science says creation took place over billions of years. I like to think that these are both True statements. Science is correct, and so is the bible.

I have located some 17 references in the bible where it says that God “stretched the heavens”, at one time or another. If God stretches the heavens, then time/space get stretched too. Thus from Gods point of view only a part of a day has elapsed, but the scientific instruments would appear to record a billion years. Thus, my theory that both science and the bible give correct timelines.

God “stretched the heavens” after creation, and after Noah’s flood, and at other times.

Regards,
Chipper

 

[steveandersen]

I tend to agree with the spiritual death argument
I’ve never heard Hastrman’s argument before
And I really like John Hiner’s answer

I don’t see a conflict

Well, I don’t think we do know that death existed before Adam and Eve. Science cannot prove this or disprove it. Never will…

errr then the bones and the coal and oil are just figments of someone’s imagination?

 

[Chipper]

errr then the bones and the coal and oil are just figments of someone’s imagination?

HHmmm, I thought I explained my position better than that.
I was not discounting the fossil record. In fact I was verifying it.

I was just just trying to get the original poster to rethink, the position, based on current understanding of “Time”.

Again God stretches heavens, from his point of a view in an instant. However the scientific instruments record it as a billion years.

So the fossil record may appear to be hundreds of millions of years, but from God’s point of view, maybe just an instant? Maybe the earth is only 3 or 4 thousand years old, from God’s point of view, but scientifically it is billions of years old.