Adam and Eve and hell!

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We don’t have the faintest hope of having enough information to form an educated opinion, and won’t know this side of Judgement Day. It’s fruitless to speculate on the salvation of individuals, and not our place to do so either.

'Nuff said.
 
LilyM said:
There is NO official Church teaching that Adam and Eve were saved that I am aware of - it’s merely pious tradition, and icons and bare assertions that they were certainly don’t constitute proof of any sort. 🤷
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Not an issue for me-I have no idea of their fate. I’d only say that committing the first sin was probably no worse than what the rest of us do -by carrying on the family tradition. 🙂
 
fhansen said:
Not an issue for me-I have no idea of their fate. I’d only say that committing the first sin was probably no worse than what the rest of us do by carrying on the family tradition. 🙂
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Yet you cheerfully say ‘No’ to the question ‘did they go to Hell’. Meaning you know for a fact that they didn’t go to Hell. Meaning you know for a fact that they DID go to Heaven (there’s nowhere else, after all, that they can have gone).

You seem tremendously sure about their fate for someone who professes not to know it. 🤷
 
LilyM said:
Yet you cheerfully say ‘No’ to the question ‘did they go to Hell’. Meaning you know for a fact that they didn’t go to Hell. Meaning you know for a fact that they DID go to Heaven (there’s nowhere else, after all, that they can have gone).

You seem tremendously sure about their fate for someone who professes not to know it. 🤷
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“cheerfully” is reading way more into it than my statement revealed. I’m not sure why anyone would bother to interpret it that way but, OK, I was feeling pretty good at the time-maybe I was even cheerful. I’ll try toning it down a bit next time.🙂
 
fhansen said:
“cheerfully” is reading way more into it than my statement revealed. I’m not sure why anyone would bother to interpret it that way but, OK, I was feeling pretty good at the time-maybe I was even cheerful. I’ll try toning it down a bit next time.🙂
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Well, you’d be in good company in good cheer:

(From the Office of Readings for Holy Saturday):

*Something strange is happening - there is a great silence on earth today, a great silence and stillness. The whole earth keeps silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. God has died in the flesh and hell trembles with fear.

He has gone to search for our first parent, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow the captives Adam and Eve, he who is both God and the son of Eve. The Lord approached them bearing the cross, the weapon that had won him the victory. At the sight of him Adam, the first man he had created, struck his breast in terror and cried out to everyone: “My Lord be with you all”. Christ answered him: “And with your spirit”. He took him by the hand and raised him up, saying: “Awake, O sleeper, and rise from the dead, and Christ will give you light”.

I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. Out of love for you and for your descendants I now by my own authority command all who are held in bondage to come forth, all who are in darkness to be enlightened, all who are sleeping to arise. I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be held a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead. Rise up, work of my hands, you who were created in my image. Rise, let us leave this place, for you are in me and I am in you; together we form only one person and we cannot be separated. For your sake I, your God, became your son; I, the Lord, took the form of a slave; I, whose home is above the heavens, descended to the earth and beneath the earth. For your sake, for the sake of man, I became like a man without help, free among the dead. For the sake of you, who left a garden, I was betrayed to the Jews in a garden, and I was crucified in a garden.

See on my face the spittle I received in order to restore to you the life I once breathed into you. See there the marks of the blows I received in order to refashion your warped nature in my image. On my back see the marks of the scourging I endured to remove the burden of sin that weighs upon your back. See my hands, nailed firmly to a tree, for you who once wickedly stretched out your hand to a tree.

I slept on the cross and a sword pierced my side for you who slept in paradise and brought forth Eve from your side. My side has healed the pain in yours. My sleep will rouse you from your sleep in hell. The sword that pierced me has sheathed the sword that was turned against you.

Rise, let us leave this place. The enemy led you out of the earthly paradise. I will not restore you to that paradise, but I will enthrone you in heaven. I forbade you the tree that was only a symbol of life, but see, I who am life itself am now one with you. I appointed cherubim to guard you as slaves are guarded, but now I make them worship you as God. The throne formed by cherubim awaits you, its bearers swift and eager. The bridal chamber is adorned, the banquet is ready, the eternal dwelling places are prepared, the treasure houses of all good things lie open. The kingdom of heaven has been prepared for you from all eternity.

Holy Saturday Responsory:

Our shepherd, the source of the water of life, has died.

The sun was darkened when he passed away.

But now man’s captor is made captive.

– This is the day when our Savior broke through the gates of death.

He has destroyed the barricades of hell,
overthrown the sovereignty of the devil.

– This is the day when our Savior broke through the gates of death

Holy Saturday Prayer:

All-powerful and ever-living God, your only Son went down among the dead
and rose again in glory. In your goodness raise up your faithful people, buried with him in baptism, to be one with him in the eternal life of heaven, where he lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, forever and ever.*

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi 🙂
 
LilyM said:
There is NO official Church teaching that Adam and Eve were saved that I am aware of - it’s merely pious tradition, and icons and bare assertions that they were certainly don’t constitute proof of any sort. 🤷
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And you’re curiously dogmatic about our inability to know.

Are you one of those people who locks the door and refuses to enter (Luke 11:52)?
 
Apollos said:
And you’re curiously dogmatic about our inability to know.

Are you one of those people who locks the door and refuses to enter (Luke 11:52)?
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Nonsense. Telling someone who is asserting that 2+2 = 5 that they in fact equal 4 isn’t being ‘curiously dogmatic’. It’s telling them the truth. 🤷

So I am telling you the truth - we don’t know one way or the other. So it’s incorrect to answer ‘yes’ to the question as if it were truth, just as it’s incorrect to answer ‘5’ to the question ‘what does 2+2 equal’, because no ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer has been revealed to us.

Funnily enough, I am a lawyer. And Jesus said ‘love is the fulfilling of the law’ so He had a great respect for it, as I do. 🙂
 
FCEGM said:
Well, you’d be in good company in good cheer:

(From the Office of Readings for Holy Saturday):

*Something strange is happening - there is a great silence on earth today, a great silence and stillness. The whole earth keeps silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. God has died in the flesh and hell trembles with fear.

He has gone to search for our first parent, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow the captives Adam and Eve, he who is both God and the son of Eve. The Lord approached them bearing the cross, the weapon that had won him the victory. At the sight of him Adam, the first man he had created, struck his breast in terror and cried out to everyone: “My Lord be with you all”. Christ answered him: “And with your spirit”. He took him by the hand and raised him up, saying: “Awake, O sleeper, and rise from the dead, and Christ will give you light”.

I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. Out of love for you and for your descendants I now by my own authority command all who are held in bondage to come forth, all who are in darkness to be enlightened, all who are sleeping to arise. I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be held a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead. Rise up, work of my hands, you who were created in my image. Rise, let us leave this place, for you are in me and I am in you; together we form only one person and we cannot be separated. For your sake I, your God, became your son; I, the Lord, took the form of a slave; I, whose home is above the heavens, descended to the earth and beneath the earth. For your sake, for the sake of man, I became like a man without help, free among the dead. For the sake of you, who left a garden, I was betrayed to the Jews in a garden, and I was crucified in a garden.

See on my face the spittle I received in order to restore to you the life I once breathed into you. See there the marks of the blows I received in order to refashion your warped nature in my image. On my back see the marks of the scourging I endured to remove the burden of sin that weighs upon your back. See my hands, nailed firmly to a tree, for you who once wickedly stretched out your hand to a tree.

I slept on the cross and a sword pierced my side for you who slept in paradise and brought forth Eve from your side. My side has healed the pain in yours. My sleep will rouse you from your sleep in hell. The sword that pierced me has sheathed the sword that was turned against you.

Rise, let us leave this place. The enemy led you out of the earthly paradise. I will not restore you to that paradise, but I will enthrone you in heaven. I forbade you the tree that was only a symbol of life, but see, I who am life itself am now one with you. I appointed cherubim to guard you as slaves are guarded, but now I make them worship you as God. The throne formed by cherubim awaits you, its bearers swift and eager. The bridal chamber is adorned, the banquet is ready, the eternal dwelling places are prepared, the treasure houses of all good things lie open. The kingdom of heaven has been prepared for you from all eternity.

Holy Saturday Responsory:

Our shepherd, the source of the water of life, has died.

The sun was darkened when he passed away.

But now man’s captor is made captive.

– This is the day when our Savior broke through the gates of death.

He has destroyed the barricades of hell,
overthrown the sovereignty of the devil.

– This is the day when our Savior broke through the gates of death

Holy Saturday Prayer:

All-powerful and ever-living God, your only Son went down among the dead
and rose again in glory. In your goodness raise up your faithful people, buried with him in baptism, to be one with him in the eternal life of heaven, where he lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, forever and ever.*

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi 🙂
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Who’s the reading from?

Are you asserting that the contents of every non-scriptural reading included in the Liturgy of the Hours is dogma and required belief? You DO know that many many theologians and other writers, even Doctors of the Church, have been flat-out wrong, don’t you?

And what’s the point of the responsory? Of course Christ rescued the FAITHFUL - that’s beyond dispute. But were Adam and Eve faithful? You don’t know, I don’t know, and the Church hasn’t pronounced in a definitive manner on the subject.

I suppose the ‘Liturgy of the A#s’ (do a google on it sometime) is also our law of belief - people certainly prayed it often enough.
 
The tradition as I was told it is that they spent the rest of their very long life’s performing acts of penance and where eventually freed from Limbo by Christ when he descended into hell after His crucifixion.
 
Advocatus_Fidei said:
The tradition as I was told it is that they spent the rest of their very long life’s performing acts of penance and where eventually freed from Limbo by Christ when he descended into hell after His crucifixion.
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The very same, very much small-t tradition that holds that Joseph was an old widower who had children by a previous marriage. Or that the two thieves were called Dismas and Gestas. Or the three Kings Gaspar, Melchior and Balthasar. Or that Christ really did fall literally three times on the way to Calvary. Or that the holy House of Loreto was transported to Italy from the Holy Land by angels.

Nothing wrong with pointing out these wonderful traditions at all. I only object to passing them off as undisputed and undisputable knowledge or fact.
 
Apollos said:
Evidential preponderance favors their salvation.
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In other words ‘it’s highly likely that they were saved’ or even ‘it’s probable that they were saved’. Which is a very different answer from ‘yes, they were saved’.

Mind you, I’ve seen precious little evidence one way or 'tother. Pious tradition, theological speculation based on nothing concrete, and icons, have little to no evidential value.
 
LilyM said:
In other words ‘it’s highly likely that they were saved’ or even ‘it’s probable that they were saved’. Which is a very different answer from ‘yes, they were saved’.

Mind you, I’ve seen precious little evidence one way or 'tother. Pious tradition, theological speculation based on nothing concrete, and icons, have little to no evidential value.
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If you believe the tradition then it is perfectly correct to say yes they were saved because that is the true expression of what you think. Your preferred expressions simply convey doubt and uncertainty, which might be a true expression of your feelings about the matter but would not be for those who can truly believe they were.

Some of us are able to believe things without needing water tight evidence, blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed, which is the very definition of faith.
 
of course they were saved,even if just like the rest of humanity if not even more so.Listen to the second Adam as he redeems the first Adam and Eve and their lost son Cain - {my]" son[Cain] behold thy mother" - "woman[my woman/wife]behold thy son[Cain] - twinc
 
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