Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden

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Did an omniscient God know that Adam & Eve were going to let the side down so to speak? Or was it part of the plan?
If it was part of the plan then why did he create man to be flawed and woman to create original sin?
The plan is to create a creature who is both spiritual and material. This plan is current each time a human person is conceived. The human person, an uniquely wonderful creature, has the ability to choose a life of free submission to our Creator or not.

By the way, a woman did not create original sin.😉
 
I was wondering how Adam and Eve were supposed to take care of the Garden:
did they have to tell the animals what to do, or did they have to make some tools …
As they were given dominion over nature, why would it not be so very different from today? Man was permitted to use nature…presumably to do things like domesticate animals, build habitations, etc. When you get a human-influenced ecology–a cultivated Garden, if you will–then you no longer have an ecology that is left entirely to natural devices. It will therefore require “tending” in order to keep it in balance and produce what mankind wants from it.

Sounds pretty similar to what we’re up to today in human civilization, except that in that state of Original Justice, I would expect much more judicious use of natural resources and care of our human brethren.
 
I agree with you. It is so much easier to not get bogged down with things that just do not add up. Discount it with the knowledge you have been given and move on to the punchline.
Eternal life. That is the carrot worth chasing no matter what anyone says.
I agree - that’s the carrot worth chasing.

Surely if you knew you couldn’t die then the years, and perhaps centuries or more, would pass away almost without notice. That seems to me to be just a part of the ‘carrot’.🙂
 
There is only a literal approach allowed regarding Adam and Eve.
If there is any other approach, let me know about it please.
I’m letting you know about it. Since you have Catholic leanings you should be informed that the church teaches that several books of the OT are simply stories to explain the nature of things. Metaphors. You are not obligated to believe this. I for one take a more literal approach. So no, there is not “only a literal approach”, unless of course you are speaking from your vantage point only.
 
I’m letting you know about it. Since you have Catholic leanings you should be informed that the church teaches that several books of the OT are simply stories to explain the nature of things. Metaphors. You are not obligated to believe this. I for one take a more literal approach. So no, there is not “only a literal approach”, unless of course you are speaking from your vantage point only.
Sorry to give you a newsflash.
It is required of all Catholics to believe the Adam and Eve are literal persons.
I am not kidding you.

Granny will back me up on this one, and quite frankly I am surpirsed she did not correct you already.

I am not here to teach you your faith. You are here to answer questions.
It is called Catholic Answers for that very reason. Give me answers, or tell me you don’t have one.
 
The plan is to create a creature who is both spiritual and material. This plan is current each time a human person is conceived. The human person, an uniquely wonderful creature, has the ability to choose a life of free submission to our Creator or not.

By the way, a woman did not create original sin.😉
What is your source for what you have said so that I can read further. I am struggling to find a latter passage that refers back to genesis in the Bible. Is it a Papal edict? When can I read those online? Sorry to answer your answer with so many questions.

Thanks
 
The plan is to create a creature who is both spiritual and material. This plan is current each time a human person is conceived. The human person, an uniquely wonderful creature, has the ability to choose a life of free submission to our Creator or not.

By the way, a woman did not create original sin.😉
Sorry to go on but if Eve did not create original sin then who did? God, The Devil or Adam? Again sorry to respond with so many questions. If it is easier to refer me on to other sources I’m happy to read for myself. Cheers
 
I’m letting you know about it. Since you have Catholic leanings you should be informed that the church teaches that several books of the OT are simply stories to explain the nature of things. Metaphors. You are not obligated to believe this. I for one take a more literal approach. So no, there is not “only a literal approach”, unless of course you are speaking from your vantage point only.
Is there a list of books/passages in the OT that are only meant metaphorically? If so where can i find this list. Are these rulings by the church? Or are they just suggestions by biblical scholars? Once more please accept my apologies for the numerous questions. If it is easier please refer me on to a source that I can read for myself. Thanks
 
Sorry to give you a newsflash.
It is required of all Catholics to believe the Adam and Eve are literal persons.
I am not kidding you.

Granny will back me up on this one, and quite frankly I am surpirsed she did not correct you already.

I am not here to teach you your faith. You are here to answer questions.
It is called Catholic Answers for that very reason. Give me answers, or tell me you don’t have one.
My friend, you are not giving me a news flash. I am aware that Adam and Eve are to be accepted as literal by the Catholic church but thats it, just Adam and Eve the people. The creation story,the six days concept, and much of the rest are explained to be metaphors. Again, you are not required to accept this but I have debated the subject ad infinitum on this forum and most accept the metaphor approach.

Please don’t try to put forth in a smug way something that you thought was true as fact. Ask questions. In addition, I have been arguing for a literal view of Genesis against most Catholics (and I’m Catholic) for good long time. This is why I said the thread could get derailed.
 
Is there a list of books/passages in the OT that are only meant metaphorically? If so where can i find this list. Are these rulings by the church? Or are they just suggestions by biblical scholars? Once more please accept my apologies for the numerous questions. If it is easier please refer me on to a source that I can read for myself. Thanks
See post #30. I do not know if there is a list of non literal OT books . This subject gets debated hotly on this forum. Just put it out there and you will get some solid answers.
 
I don’t know if it is related, but didn’t you guys observe how much work and money “Eves” use to create nice gardens around the houses?:cool:👍
 
It kind of bothers me when people talk about an absolute prohibition against considering polygenism, because I think it’s an exaggeration of the Church’s position. Speaking of it as such is probably fine in most contexts, because Pope Pious XII strongly discounted this possibility in an encyclical and the current explanations in the Catechism align with this, but in the hierarchy of truth in the Catholic Church, it’s possibility hasn’t been banned entirely without question. Thus to speak of it as such opens the door to possible later misunderstanding and crises of faith like finding out that the Earth isn’t the center of the universe.

To build on that example as an imperfect analogy, geocentrism was strongly supported for a long time, and anything else was very cautiously to be engaged, and then only to faithful scholars; the common laity were certainly not encouraged in a non-geocentric notion of cosmology, for it was seen to undermine the common ways of thinking about the special place earth and humanity have in God’s sight. Only when scientists and theologians had carefully considered the revelation of God through Scripture alongside His revelation through His own Creation (as is always still being discovered) was the Church more comfortable in supporting heliocentrism as a position that could be held by the faithful.

In fact, the language Pope Pius XII used in Humani Generis is not itself absolute:
When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which through generation is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.
The bolded words show the current state of things, but leave the possibility that it could become apparent to the Church. I noticed that the first time I read it. Jimmy Akin (of Catholic Answers) also seems to have noticed it:
Hypothetically (and I am not advocating this), an interpreter might conclude that Adam and Eve represent the early human community as a whole. Pius XII strongly discouraged this interpretation in his enecyclical Humani Generis, but did not altogether preclude the possibility that the Magisterium might be open to it in the future, and some members of the Magisterium (such as the German bishops’ conference) have been explicitly open to it in recent years.
jimmyakin.com/2005/08/tough_bible_que.html
Jimmy recognizes that many interpreters, even older Jewish sources, recognize by the very words “Adam” and “Eve” that Genesis is quite possibly identifying a group or people by an appellation.

However, the first two sentences of Pope Pius XII are binding to the general faithful, that we are not at liberty to hold polygenism over monogenism, to teach it as fact. It would require a shift from the emphasis on the personal sin of Adam and Eve to a more corporate sin (which is another common theme of the Bible, but not emphasized in the the context of Adam and Eve by the Church), a concurrent sequence of personal sins throughout the community, or an infectious sin (or effects thereof, like a “Pandora’s Box”). While the Church teaches these elsewhere, it has refrained so far from doing so in the case of Adam and Eve, and therefore until or unless the Magisterium determines otherwise, we must be careful to give the assent of faith only to the monogenism and connected personal original sin of Adam and Eve.

Just some things that have been on my mind 🙂

You don’t, by the way, need to reject the observed data of human prehistory or even most current scientific opinions and interpretations of those data to hold to monogenism. There are many possibilities that allow for it. It is true that polygenism would fit more cleanly into current scientific models, but it is certainly not a case of “accept all of science or reject it all in favor of Genesis as a scientific account.”

There may even be ways to reconcile a Mesopotamian Adam and Eve (recall the mention of the Tigris and Euphrates in Genesis, or at least as is most commonly interpreted) with scientific accounts, even in the approximate time frames we get from the genealogies. I’m not sure many people would like them, but I think they are possible :).
 
Sorry to give you a newsflash.
It is required of all Catholics to believe the Adam and Eve are literal persons.
I am not kidding you.

Granny will back me up on this one, and quite frankly I am surpirsed she did not correct you already.

I am not here to teach you your faith. You are here to answer questions.
It is called Catholic Answers for that very reason. Give me answers, or tell me you don’t have one.
Hi Stawberry Jam,

Good to see you.

I am just catching up with this thread. Of course Adam and Eve are real persons.
 
What is your source for what you have said so that I can read further. I am struggling to find a latter passage that refers back to genesis in the Bible. Is it a Papal edict? When can I read those online? Sorry to answer your answer with so many questions.

Thanks
The best source for basic information is the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 355-421.

Here are two links.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Footnotes will give Scripture references and the Church Councils which formulated the doctrines…
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_NOTE.HTM

I would recommend getting a paperback edition ISBN: 1-57455-110-8
and explore the regular Index, Index of Citations, and Glossary. Also the cross references in the margins are helpful.

I learned Catholic doctrines without opening a Bible so I am not very good at providing Scripture references. However, I do love to use Romans 5: 12-21. Perhaps someone else can jump in with the references. 🙂 Once you find some New Testament references, I should be able to relate them back to the first three chapters of Genesis.
 
Sorry to go on but if Eve did not create original sin then who did? God, The Devil or Adam? Again sorry to respond with so many questions. If it is easier to refer me on to other sources I’m happy to read for myself. Cheers
Would a woman do such a nasty thing.😉

Seriously, original sin was not a thing which in turn could have been created. Original Sin refers to a direct action by an individual. Original Sin, as an action, had consequences. While both sinned as husband and wife, the Church considers Adam as the “original” first human who shattered humanity’s relationship with divinity.
 
Is there a list of books/passages in the OT that are only meant metaphorically? If so where can i find this list. Are these rulings by the church? Or are they just suggestions by biblical scholars? Once more please accept my apologies for the numerous questions. If it is easier please refer me on to a source that I can read for myself. Thanks
My personal interest is the first three chapters of Genesis because a number of basic Catholic doctrines flow from them. So I really cannot provide any list that would cover the OT. With those beginning chapters, I use Catholic doctrines as a guide to discerning what is literal and what is figurative language. Sometimes figurative language explains a Catholic doctrine, sometimes not. This is another reason I go by the doctrines.

Of course, biblical scholars make lots of suggestions. Some of these are plain common sense .However, I cannot advise anyone regarding these–unless something outright opposes Catholic teachings found in the first three chapters of Genesis…
 
It kind of bothers me when people talk about an absolute prohibition against considering polygenism, because I think it’s an exaggeration of the Church’s position. Speaking of it as such is probably fine in most contexts, because Pope Pious XII strongly discounted this possibility in an encyclical and the current explanations in the Catechism align with this, but in the hierarchy of truth in the Catholic Church, it’s possibility hasn’t been banned entirely without question. Thus to speak of it as such opens the door to possible later misunderstanding and crises of faith like finding out that the Earth isn’t the center of the universe.

To build on that example as an imperfect analogy, geocentrism was strongly supported for a long time, and anything else was very cautiously to be engaged, and then only to faithful scholars; the common laity were certainly not encouraged in a non-geocentric notion of cosmology, for it was seen to undermine the common ways of thinking about the special place earth and humanity have in God’s sight. Only when scientists and theologians had carefully considered the revelation of God through Scripture alongside His revelation through His own Creation (as is always still being discovered) was the Church more comfortable in supporting heliocentrism as a position that could be held by the faithful.

In fact, the language Pope Pius XII used in Humani Generis is not itself absolute:
It is section 35 which has the absolute language.
  1. It remains for Us now to speak about those questions which, although they pertain to the positive sciences, are nevertheless more or less connected with the truths of the Christian faith. In fact, not a few insistently demand that the Catholic religion take these sciences into account as much as possible. This certainly would be praiseworthy in the case of clearly proved facts; but caution must be used when there is rather question of hypotheses, having some sort of scientific foundation, in which the doctrine contained in Sacred Scripture or in Tradition is involved. If such conjectural opinions are directly or indirectly opposed to the doctrine revealed by God, then the demand that they be recognized can in no way be admitted.
 
It kind of bothers me when people talk about an absolute prohibition against considering polygenism, because I think it’s an exaggeration of the Church’s position.
In fairness,
please state the Church’s position in your comment, “It kind of bothers me when people talk about an absolute prohibition against considering polygenism, because I think it’s an exaggeration of the Church’s position.”

I am very interested in discussing this “exaggeration” regarding the first human gardener who had a personal relationship with our Creator. Since there are so many church-type positions, especially on BioLogos, I really do need to know what Church position you are using.

Thank you for your consideration of this request.
 
Hi Stawberry Jam,

Good to see you.

I am just catching up with this thread. Of course Adam and Eve are real persons.
Your answer addresses Adam and Eve as real people which the church concurs with. I originally pointed out that the church does not hold to a literal GENESIS story, NOT that Adam & Eve weren’t real people. This is different than what another poster is putting forth in regards to what I said on a previous post. Adam and Eve must be literal because of the fall of man and the onset of original sin.

The church however, as pointed out in the cathechism, acknowledges the use of figurative language to describe the Genesis account. This is the prevailing view of the church, that most parts of the Genesis account are an allegory. Strangely, I was being frowned upon as if I had a non literal view. My literal views have been highly contested by others on this forum so I am not in the “Genesis is a metaphor” category. I simply stated that the catholic church has an opposite view than I and thankfully this is not something I must accept to be a Catholic. The bottom line is that the church see’s Genesis and several other OT books as metaphors.
 
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