Adam and Eve question

[Aloysium]

Nope. If I could write the software, I’d write myself as a billionaire. But that is impossible.nNot here on earth. Judgment? Hello? Their screw up is the ONLY REASON we are not in the Garden of Eden. God holds us temporally responsible for their mess up! So yeah, I have every right to sit in judgment. THEY SCREWED UP. And God punishes us temporally for it.

You do realize that wanting what comes with being a billionaire is pretty much what got us into this predicament. That is unless you were thinking about your capacity to use the money to help a humanity suffering from the consequences of greed, pride and a list for power and pleasure. Even the, you would be supporting that very system. Love begins here and now and doesn’t need anything but one’s good will. Anyway, that’s your business. Sorry for the intrusion.

 

[kdbueno]

God does not punish harshly without the radical deep reason to do so. Rather, He expresses His understanding of the situation, He expresses that His commands are far more precious than “being decieved”.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Granted the story is probably all a myth and an analogy to what really happened to cause original sin. But taken the least bit seriously, this tale does not present enough fact and or evidence to condemn Adam and Eve and all their descendants to the miserable consequences of original sin as we all have been taught.

Any speculation on what really happened in the garden?

That would be idle speculation, no?

 

[grannymh]

Their screw up is the ONLY REASON we are not in the Garden of Eden. God holds us temporally responsible for their mess up!

The Catholic Church does not teach that.

So yeah, I have every right to sit in judgment. THEY SCREWED UP. And God punishes us temporally for it.

Genesis 3: 15 is not a punishment.

Because God is a different being than a human person, the loss of humanity’s relationship with Divinity had predictable results.

 

[BobCatholic]

Not correct. Only Adam was responsible for his own sin. You are not. You are only dealing with the consequences. Also, you own sins, as well as mine, also quite likely contributing to unwanted (screwed up) consequences of others.

Please pay attention to what I said.

I DID NOT SAY: we are responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin or anyone’s sin. Whether temporal or spiritual.

We most definitely ARE NOT responsible!

I SAID: We are being HELD temporally responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin (and the sins of others!)

Notice the difference BEING temporally responsible versus BEING HELD temporally responsible.

Imagine you got a letter from the city, about a parking ticket. You open it up and read it. It says you are being fined $100 for parking illegally. The details are: the car is wrong, and it is clear your neighbor did it, but his license plate is mistyped and you got sent the ticket instead.

OK, you are clearly not responsible for his bad parking. So you go to court and fight it.

And lose.

The judge refuses to hear your arguments, and rejects your evidence and finds you liable for the fine.

You are being HELD responsible for something that is not your responsibility!

THIS is the same thing that God is doing to us. We are not in the Garden of Eden.

The Catholic Church does not teach that.

The Catholic Church teaches that sin has two punishments: spiritual and temporal.

Christ took care of the spiritual punishment, and defeated it.

He didn’t take care of the temporal punishment. You will notice the incontrovertible evidence of this - we are not living in the Garden of Eden.

Romans 8:23. We’re still WAITING to be redeemed in our bodies.

Genesis 3: 15 is not a punishment.

You’re right, Genesis 3:15 is not a punishment, it is a promise of the future Christ.

You forgot Genesis 3:23-24. There is the punishment.

The punishment is that God kicked Adam and Eve (and us) out of the Garden. We’re still being held temporally responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin - and other people’s sins.

Because God is a different being than a human person, the loss of humanity’s relationship with Divinity had predictable results.

Correct. God punishes. Showed no mercy in the temporal realm. God’s mercy in the spiritual realm is infinite and unlimited. Look at the cross of Christ!

In the temporal realm, God’s mercy is limited. Limited to his will. Christ’s Cross doesn’t seem to cover that. Romans 8:23

 

[grannymh]

You’re right, Genesis 3:15 is not a punishment, it is a promise of the future Christ.

You forgot Genesis 3:23-24. There is the punishment.

The punishment is that God kicked Adam and Eve (and us) out of the Garden. We’re still being held temporally responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin - and other people’s sins.

Certainly, in this world of sin, people would consider Genesis 3: 23-14 as a punishment. However, one first should consider the context of Genesis 3: 23-24.

The obvious context is that Genesis 3: 23-24 is the natural result of the plain sight commandment in Genesis 2: 15-17. Staying in God’s Garden is conditional on Adam’s free submission to his Creator. (the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 396-397 and paragraph 1730) Free submission refers to Genesis 2: 15-17 and just as important Genesis 3: 9-12.

Since there is only one pair of humans in God’s Garden, according to the Catholic Church, Genesis 2: 18, there are no temporarily responsible humans who are capable of committing the first Original Sin. Another way to study this is to determine that temporary responsibility for Original Sin cannot be assigned to the second, third, one-hundredth person etc.

 

[BobCatholic]

there are no temporarily responsible humans who are capable of committing the first Original Sin. Another way to study this is to determine that temporary responsibility for Original Sin cannot be assigned to the second, third, one-hundredth person etc.

Correct, nobody is capable of commuting that sin, but we’re still temporally held responsible.

The responsibility is not transferred to us, but we are punished for those sins nonetheless.

We are not in the Garden of Eden. We are still paying the price. We are punished.