Adam and Eve: Real or just representation of events

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Since this seems to be the real issue for you, I’ll respond to this alone. The rest of what you said shows that you were not really reading what I said carefully but instead heresy hunting, that is to say, reading in bad faith.

Like a fundamentalist, you are afraid that if we say that too many things are allegorical, pretty soon the whole thing will be allegorical. First of all, that’s a slippery slope argument, which is a logical fallacy. Second of all, there is no reason why it ought to lead to a spiritualization of the rest of Christian doctrine. The Gospels are written in such a way as to leave no possibility for a reasonable person to conclude that the authors are being allegorical. For example, they name specific places, dates ("the #nd year of so and so’s reign), contemporary historical events, landmarks and buildings, historical figures and important religious figures (who interact with the main people in the Gospel) and witnesses. They were written “so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught” (Luke 1:4). The same is largely true of 1 and 2 Kings and other books like that. However, nothing even resembling this exists in the first few chapters of Genesis (roughly from Creation to the Deluge.) Also there is strong historical and scientific evidence that the truths (and they are truths) that are presented in these chapters are not straight “facts” in the form they are presented. What’s more, the literary structure of Genesis has features in common both with historical writing and mythic writing (and myth doesn’t men “false”.)
Now you are either appraised of the relevant science and history or you are not. That all depends on whether you’ve considered it worth your time to try and learn what you can about what contemporary sciences have to say about prehistory and human evolution, or whether you think that because this is secular knowledge, it is somehow unimportant and doesn’t have to be taken into account in your reasoning. I’ll let Augustine comment on that:

“Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of the world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.”
-St. Augustine, On the Literal Meaning of Genesis

I don’t see much more point in pursuing this issue. There are well established facts about the history of mankind and the history of the genus homo, of which the family of true humans is only one of several specialized offshoots. What we truly are is obviously not reducible to evolution, any more than we are reducible to atoms, but that is nevertheless how we were made. What I am trying to do, rather than stick my fingers in my ears and recite “it’s just stupid science, who cares?!” over and over again, is to find a way to reconcile the truth of evolution with the higher order truth of Man’s creation and Original Sin (the latter two of which, must be preserved.) Currently, there are two main trends among Catholics. One is to accept the evidence for evolution and sweep Original sin under the rug (unacceptable), the other is the accept a child’s version of Original Sin and ignore the evidence for evolution (which is unacceptable.)

The Church has to deal with this issue sooner or later. Sooner is better when salvation hangs in the balance.
When evolutionary theory is applied to fig trees, ducks, and elephants, it is working in the material realm which is where it belongs.

Personally, from what I have seen – the “evolutionary evidence” regarding the human species is not all that wonderful. The problem is with those who interpret the evidence to suit their own agenda.

A really good statistician, familiar with computer models for genetics, who is also an excellent logician, should be able to demonstrate the possibility of two sole parents of the human species. All that is needed to reconcile evolution and the higher order truth is – one scientific possibility.😃

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred.
 
Since this seems to be the real issue for you, I’ll respond to this alone. The rest of what you said shows that you were not really reading what I said carefully but instead heresy hunting, that is to say, reading in bad faith.

Like a fundamentalist, you are afraid that if we say that too many things are allegorical, pretty soon the whole thing will be allegorical. First of all, that’s a slippery slope argument, which is a logical fallacy. Second of all, there is no reason why it ought to lead to a spiritualization of the rest of Christian doctrine. The Gospels are written in such a way as to leave no possibility for a reasonable person to conclude that the authors are being allegorical. For example, they name specific places, dates ("the #nd year of so and so’s reign), contemporary historical events, landmarks and buildings, historical figures and important religious figures (who interact with the main people in the Gospel) and witnesses. They were written “so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught” (Luke 1:4). The same is largely true of 1 and 2 Kings and other books like that. However, nothing even resembling this exists in the first few chapters of Genesis (roughly from Creation to the Deluge.) Also there is strong historical and scientific evidence that the truths (and they are truths) that are presented in these chapters are not straight “facts” in the form they are presented. What’s more, the literary structure of Genesis has features in common both with historical writing and mythic writing (and myth doesn’t men “false”.)
Now you are either appraised of the relevant science and history or you are not. That all depends on whether you’ve considered it worth your time to try and learn what you can about what contemporary sciences have to say about prehistory and human evolution, or whether you think that because this is secular knowledge, it is somehow unimportant and doesn’t have to be taken into account in your reasoning. I’ll let Augustine comment on that:

“Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of the world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.”
-St. Augustine, On the Literal Meaning of Genesis

I don’t see much more point in pursuing this issue. There are well established facts about the history of mankind and the history of the genus homo, of which the family of true humans is only one of several specialized offshoots. What we truly are is obviously not reducible to evolution, any more than we are reducible to atoms, but that is nevertheless how we were made. What I am trying to do, rather than stick my fingers in my ears and recite “it’s just stupid science, who cares?!” over and over again, is to find a way to reconcile the truth of evolution with the higher order truth of Man’s creation and Original Sin (the latter two of which, must be preserved.) Currently, there are two main trends among Catholics. One is to accept the evidence for evolution and sweep Original sin under the rug (unacceptable), the other is the accept a child’s version of Original Sin and ignore the evidence for evolution (which is unacceptable.)

The Church has to deal with this issue sooner or later. Sooner is better when salvation hangs in the balance.
Terrific post.

I have recently read The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief, by Francis Collins, former head of the Human Genome Project AND a devout Christian. He makes your same point, even more stridently. I recommend it for anyone interested in how to reconcile faith and the accumulating evidence of science.
 
…A really good statistician, familiar with computer models for genetics, who is also an excellent logician, should be able to demonstrate the possibility of two sole parents of the human species.
Are you stating the result that you want before the evidence is examined?
 
Are you stating the result that you want before the evidence is examined?
Absolutely. 😃 I’ve got guts.

It is called proposed thesis.

Citation: The American Heritage College Dictionary definition for thesis, “3. A hypothetical proposition, esp. one not proved.”

Regarding Adam – Any takers?

Blessings,
granny

Spring is a message of hope sent by God.
 
Absolutely. 😃 I’ve got guts.

It is called proposed thesis.

Citation: The American Heritage College Dictionary definition for thesis, “3. A hypothetical proposition, esp. one not proved.”

Regarding Adam – Any takers?

Blessings,
granny

Spring is a message of hope sent by God.
They’ve been trying for decades? I am sure that you would quote it all if it existed.
 
Terrific post.

I have recently read The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief, by Francis Collins, former head of the Human Genome Project AND a devout Christian. He makes your same point, even more stridently. I recommend it for anyone interested in how to reconcile faith and the accumulating evidence of science.
Try this book, Granny. It is all about what you are discussing, including the probabilities…
 
Try this book, Granny. It is all about what you are discussing, including the probabilities…
For the reality of Adam and Eve, I prefer Francisco J. Ayala.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for knowledge is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
 
For the reality of Adam and Eve, I prefer Francisco J. Ayala.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for knowledge is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
I don’t remember that Collins ever discusses Adam or Eve. You can keep your Ayala. Give Collins a looksee. He is enormously brilliant and very devout.
 
For the reality of Adam and Eve, I prefer Francisco J. Ayala.
This is Wiki on Ayala:
Research and work
He is known for his research on population and evolution genetics, and has been called the “Renaissance Man of Evolutionary Biology”.[8] His “discoveries have opened up new approaches to the prevention and treatment of diseases that affect hundreds of millions of individuals worldwide”, including demonstrating the reproduction of Trypanosoma cruzi, the agent of Chagas disease, is mostly the product of cloning, and that only a few clones account for most of this widespread, mostly untreatable South American disease that affects 16 million to 18 million people.[9]
He has been publicly critical of U.S. restrictions on federal funding of embryonic stem cell research. He currently serves on the advisory board of the Campaign to Defend the Constitution, an organization that has lobbied Congress to lift federal restrictions on funding embryonic stem cell research. He is also a critic of creationism and intelligent design theories, claiming that they are not only pseudoscience, but also mistakes from theological point of view. He suggests that the theory of evolution resolves the problem of evil, thus being a kind of theodicy[10].
What does he say about “Adam and Eve”? This states that he is opposed to creationism and ID.
 
I don’t remember that Collins ever discusses Adam or Eve. You can keep your Ayala. Give Collins a looksee. He is enormously brilliant and very devout.
It is folly to try to reconcile religion with science without knowing what science is actually demonstrating. In my neighborhood, there is a slang description for that kind of approach.

If you don’t remember if Francis Collins discusses Adam or Eve, would he have mentioned two sole parents of the human species in scientific terminology? If not, why should I read his book when I am interested in the reality of Adam and Eve?

I am interested in reading the research of a really good statistician, familiar with computer models for genetics, who is also an excellent logician.

A person with keen analytical abilities should be able to demonstrate [not the same as prove] the possibility [according to acceptable logic] that the unique, distinct human species descended from two sole parents. All that is needed to reconcile evolution and religious truth is –
one scientific possibility.😃

Blessings,
granny

Truth exists in both the material and spiritual realms.
 
It is folly to try to reconcile religion with science without knowing what science is actually demonstrating.
Um, that is why I recommended Collins’ book to you. He is the very top of his field. AND a devout Christian.
If you don’t remember if Francis Collins discusses Adam or Eve, would he have mentioned two sole parents of the human species in scientific terminology? If not, why should I read his book when I am interested in the reality of Adam and Eve?
well, because of what I just quoted from what you said (above). I presume that you are not interested ONLY in Adam and Eve. Are you?

And you did not answer my question about Ayala. He seems opposed to your position on Adam and Eve. Can you clarify this matter? What does Ayala say about Adam and Eve?
 
well, because of what I just quoted from what you said (above). I presume that you are not interested ONLY in Adam and Eve. Are you?
Right now, I am ONLY interested in the science factor regarding the reality of Adam and Eve. I am discussing the spiritual/religious issues regarding Adam on another forum which has banned discussion on evolution/atheism. I do respect this ban and intend to post only on the religious significance of Adam in that forum.

For information about this ban, so that one does not accidentally post banned discussions, please check out the STICKY notes at the top of both the Philosophy and Apologetics Forums. Do read all the posts in those sticky notes.

See Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads in Philosophy.
See Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads in Apologetics.

There are plenty of other topics available for discussion.
And you did not answer my question about Ayala. He seems opposed to your position on Adam and Eve. Can you clarify this matter? What does Ayala say about Adam and Eve?
I do not intend to go off topic by discussing the nitty-gritty of research by a particular scientist. Your post 312 is sufficient clarification. Your conclusion that he is opposed to two sole parents of the human species is accurate.

Blessings,
granny

These two websites contain TV ads about Catholicism. The first is from one of the Dioceses which is using them. The second is general information.
 
Never mind, then. I don’t know why you recommended Ayala, then. He contradicts your position.
Going back to post 313, I said:

“It is folly to try to reconcile religion with science without knowing what science is actually demonstrating. In my neighborhood, there is a slang description for that kind of approach.”

In other words, it is basic common sense to know your opposition inside and out before a fruitful discussion can be held. That is why I read/review evolutionary/materialistic based research regarding the human species, both ancient and modern.

If one truly wants to win a debate regarding the true, real existence of Adam and Eve, she/he must first walk on the opponent’s turf.

Blessings,
granny

Truth exists in both material and spiritual realms.
 
at best … Adam and Eve where a nation(s) or Tribe(s).

If they where individuals and the scriptures are correct then God says… Masturbate and later ultimately says sleep with your sister. Then god says him who sleeps with his sister shall be put to death for it is a sin.

Think about it.

And besides. try to explain a 6000 year old earth while you look at a supernova in your telescope.
 
at best … Adam and Eve where a nation(s) or Tribe(s).

If they where individuals and the scriptures are correct then God says… Masturbate and later ultimately says sleep with your sister. Then god says him who sleeps with his sister shall be put to death for it is a sin.

Think about it.

And besides. try to explain a 6000 year old earth while you look at a supernova in your telescope.
Adam and Eve, and a 6,000 year old earth are two separate issues. I can believe (as God’s Church requires us to) that Adam and Eve are the first man and first woman, our first parents, without assuming that they had to have been created only 6,000 years ago. After all, we see evidence of human beings using fire and other technologies for very sophisticated purposes 10,000 years ago. 🙂

Of course, the written record is only 4,000 years old, so anything older than 4,000 years is dated according to carbon dating and the like, which is often very confusing, since you find some scientists giving one date, and others giving totally different dates, based on the same carbon evidence. 🤷
 
Adam and Eve, and a 6,000 year old earth are two separate issues. I can believe (as God’s Church requires us to) that Adam and Eve are the first man and first woman, our first parents, without assuming that they had to have been created only 6,000 years ago. After all, we see evidence of human beings using fire and other technologies for very sophisticated purposes 10,000 years ago. 🙂

Of course, the written record is only 4,000 years old, so anything older than 4,000 years is dated according to carbon dating and the like, which is often very confusing, since you find some scientists giving one date, and others giving totally different dates, based on the same carbon evidence. 🤷
The processes (not just carbon-based) of dating are not “confusing” to those who do it.

Here is a link to help reduce the confusion: Radiometric Dating
 
The processes (not just carbon-based) of dating are not “confusing” to those who do it.

Here is a link to help reduce the confusion: Radiometric Dating
Right. I had a history teacher in college who refused to give dates for anything that happened before the dawn of the written word. She would tell us what order they happened in, and the name of the era in which they occurred, but she never gave us dates, because she said, Every year, I am given a totally different list of dates. It is a shifting sand, so don’t bother with the dates; just name the eras, and show what order the eras occurred in, when it comes to the exam. 🙂
 
The processes (not just carbon-based) of dating are not “confusing” to those who do it.

Here is a link to help reduce the confusion: Radiometric Dating
You are most likely right. Here’s some out-of-context quotes from your link.

This type of writing can be found in some of the research on the origin of the human species.

“Different methods of radiometric dating vary in the timescale over which they are accurate and the materials to which they can be applied.”

“The basic equation of radiometric dating requires that neither the parent nuclide nor the daughter product can enter or leave the material after its formation. The possible confounding effects of contamination of parent and daughter isotopes have to be considered, as do the effects of any loss or gain of such isotopes since the sample was created.”

“Accurate radiometric dating generally requires that the parent has a long enough half-life that it will be present in significant amounts at the time of measurement (except as described below under “Dating with short-lived extinct radionuclides”),”

" After an organism has been dead for 60,000 years so little carbon-14 is left that accurate dating cannot be established."

“The unranium-lead radiometric dating scheme has been refined to the point that the error margin in dates of rocks can be as low as less than two million years in two-and-a-half billion years.”
 
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