Adam and Eve : Real people or allegorical myth?

[buffalo]

Monkeys went down a different path. They are our cousins. We have a common ancestor.

News flash - the tree of life has fallen and is now a bush, for today at least.

 

[rossum]

That is adaptation.

Evolution = adaptation that affects the genome. If I spend a lot of time in the sun, then I get a tan. That is an adaptation to increased sunlight, but it is not evolution because it does not affect my genome. When genomes change, that sort of adaptation can be evolution, as with the white fur of Polar Bears.

Every generation loses some functionality because of deleterious mutations. We are degenerating.

Then why do we still have flu? Every year there is a mutated flu virus, which according to you has “lost functionality”. After a few years it will have no functionality left at all, hence it should go extinct. Why hasn’t it?

Also, we have a complete mitochondrial genome from Ötzi the Iceman: Complete Mitochondrial Genome Sequence of the Tyrolean Iceman. He comes from many generations before us. Can you show the ID research specifying the lost functions that we see when comparing his mtDNA with our mtDNA?

You are making statements here, without providing any supporting evidence. Here is a fine opportunity for the ID side to produce some evidence to support their hypothesis.

rossum

 

[Anna_Scott]

Why do some Catholic reject the idea of Adam and Eve being real persons as recorded in Genesis?

This kind of thinking disturbs me. . . .

I think the message of Genesis is quite clear. God is our creator and the creator of all things. Man rebelled against God, causing a need for reconciliation, which Christ accomplished on the Cross–which was foreshadowed in Genesis. Many other lessons are contained in Genesis as well.

I don’t think Genesis was written as a Science text book. I think there can be no contradiction between God’s Word and Science. If there appears to be a contradiction; one of two things is wrong: The Scientific theory is false (and will eventually be proven wrong); or our understanding of Holy Scripture is not correct.

God and Science are completely compatible, because God is the creator of all things.

A day with N. T. Wright
Anglican, N.T. Wright, relayed an anecdote about Karl Barth, which sums up the way I see Genesis:
After a lecture, a woman asked Karl Barth: “Is it true that the serpent really spoke?” And Barth replied: “Madam, it does not matter whether or not the serpent really spoke; all that matters is what the serpent said.”

Peace,
Anna

 

[rossum]

They are still squirrels.

They are still mammals. They are still tetrapods. They are still bilaterans. They are still eukaryotes. That is the way the nested hierarchy works; everything breeds with its kind. It is just that the kinds overlap in a particular pattern. Canadians are North Americans. USAnians are also North Americans. Ottowans are simultaneously Canadians and North Americans. Iowans are both USAnians and North Americans.

If you wish to criticise macro-evolution, then you need to understand the nested hierarchy.

There are about 280 different species of squirrel, so it is perfectly possible for a new species to evolve and still be a squirrel.

rossum

 

[rossum]

News flash - the tree of life has fallen and is now a bush, for today at least.

It is a 3.5 billion year old Mangrove. The roots are a bit tangled, but once you are clear of the roots the tree is clear. The structure of the trunk and branches has been confirmed to 12 decimal places.

Horizontal Gene Transfer is one of the mechanisms of evolution, and is rare in the Metazoa. Rare enough that we can use the occurrence of such events, such as ERVs, to help show the structure of the tree.

rossum

 

[rossum]

If we had some other origin, Christ would have expalined evolution in a parable or just layed it out.

And I’m sure He would have done exactly what you asked Him to do.

Who we are and how we got here is a huge matter and you want to say the explaination God gives is a fairytale. Too many excuses for not believing Genesis.

Not a fairy tale, but one suited for His audience at the time. Genesis was pitched at the right level for the ancient Hebrews to whom it was directly addressed. However, there are enough clues left in the text to tell us, “Don’t take this story literally, its a parable.” A talking serpent and two trees with magic fruit are enough to show that it is a parable we are reading. The talking animal is a dead give away.

rossum

 

[johnnyjones]

And I’m sure He would have done exactly what you asked Him to do.

Not a fairy tale, but one suited for His audience at the time. Genesis was pitched at the right level for the ancient Hebrews to whom it was directly addressed. However, there are enough clues left in the text to tell us, “Don’t take this story literally, its a parable.” A talking serpent and two trees with magic fruit are enough to show that it is a parable we are reading. The talking animal is a dead give away.

rossum

Oh yeah, the Hebrews of the NT would certainly understand Jesus being God as he said. That’s not complex. They could handle that but they couldn’t understand any expalination of evolving . One is so much easier than the other. A man being the creator of the universe (Jehovah God) is much easier to swallow than if he would have to explain how people really came into existence according to you. God being a man is a dead give away. The whole historic christian faith is based on this “simple” concept.

 

[arabic_catholic]

Actually , I am surprise of the numbers of catholics who think like evangelicals , and not by a Catholic mindset .

I am Catholic , I follow God revelation( both written and oral ) , reason , and the church teachings . that is the beauty of Catholicism . people should read the purpose of the pope 2006 speech which upset muslims . and keep rejecting the influence of evangelicalism on Catholicism .

 

[Hunter24]

The evolution model is foolish and has one leaping flaw in it after the other. You need so much crazy logic to accept it. I can’t figure out why those who believe in it have so hard a time with a 6 day creation given the odds for it to arsise.

Please, I am absolutely begging you, explain this quote. Where are the flaws? No evidence points to a 6 day creation besides a litteral interpretation of a 2000 year old story book. If Genesis is correct then the earth is only several thousand years old, so how do you explain the foscil record dates back millions of years, please explain this. Here’s another one, how can we see light from millions of light years away if the earth is only a few thousand years old? It is your position with gaping holes in the logic.

And as for the geneology aspect, while it is perfectly feisable that Jesus is descendant drone David, the fact that Adam is there is to imply Jesus is fully human, it’s not a statement affirming Adams existence because everyone simply beleaved that. The inclusion of a family tree is to make Jesus credible to Jews. You will reject this but it’s Totaly possible this was added after Jesus just to make him more credible, it may not even be true that he is descendant from Adam.

 

[johnnyjones]

Please, I am absolutely begging you, explain this quote. Where are the flaws? No evidence points to a 6 day creation besides a litteral interpretation of a 2000 year old story book. If Genesis is correct then the earth is only several thousand years old, so how do you explain the foscil record dates back millions of years, please explain this. Here’s another one, how can we see light from millions of light years away if the earth is only a few thousand years old? It is your position with gaping holes in the logic.

And as for the geneology aspect, while it is perfectly feisable that Jesus is descendant drone David, the fact that Adam is there is to imply Jesus is fully human, it’s not a statement affirming Adams existence because everyone simply beleaved that. The inclusion of a family tree is to make Jesus credible to Jews. You will reject this but it’s Totaly possible this was added after Jesus just to make him more credible, it may not even be true that he is descendant from Adam.

You continually look for ways to discredit geneologys and lineages. It’s always “added later” or “it’s possible that”.

The church teaches a literal Adam, that is a fact. Argue your point with the church. All the lineages in the bible are there for EVIDENCE to show exactly who people are and why they are credible. Dismissing geneologies destroys who Jesus is, and that is a reckless act on your part. To say the geneology is “for the Jews” shows a complete lack of understanding of basic hermeneutics.

The God of this universe could create the world in a second. Lets start with a question to draw out your absoluteness in evolution. Is the universe on an upward trend, getting more complex?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I wrote an article on Adam and Eve for my “Saints of the Week” Hubpages series. The faithful are bound to believe they are real, and they are considered Saints. But what was meant by the language in Genesis is up for debate.

Here’s the link: marcanthony.hubpages.com/hub/Saints-Adam-and-Ev

(Shameless Plug: If you like it, feel free to vote up or like it on facebook . But seriously, I put a lot of thought into that article and tried to explain things as concisely as possible.)

 

[rossum]

The church teaches a literal Adam, that is a fact.

And science confirms that all humans are descended from a single couple: Mitochondrial Eve’s parents. However, science also confirms that her parents lived about 200,000 years ago, and were part of a larger human population. Those results confirm the Church’s teaching while also showing that some interpretations of Genesis are incorrect.

The God of this universe could create the world in a second.

And He could have created it in 13.5 billion years. The point is not what He could have done, but what He actually did do. The evidence He has given us in His own creation tells us that He has taken 13.5 billion years so far.

Lets start with a question to draw out your absoluteness in evolution. Is the universe on an upward trend, getting more complex?

How are you measuring complexity? Is a crystal more or less complex than the same amount of matter heated to a gas?

Remember that the Theory of Evolution refers only to the evolution of biological species, as the title of Darwin’s book says. Other parts of science are not evolution, but geology, astronomy, cosmology etc.

rossum

 

[Hunter24]

You continually look for ways to discredit geneologys and lineages. It’s always “added later” or “it’s possible that”.

The church teaches a literal Adam, that is a fact. Argue your point with the church. All the lineages in the bible are there for EVIDENCE to show exactly who people are and why they are credible. Dismissing geneologies destroys who Jesus is, and that is a reckless act on your part. To say the geneology is “for the Jews” shows a complete lack of understanding of basic hermeneutics.

The God of this universe could create the world in a second. Lets start with a question to draw out your absoluteness in evolution. Is the universe on an upward trend, getting more complex?

If the church teaches a litteral genesis someone needs to tell the schooling attended because they spent a whole semester explaining how genesis was not literal but figurative. When I said geneology is for the Jews I ment that it would lend Jesus credibility to Jewish readers, but you seam to be stuck on this geneology subject for some reason. I’ll just quit bringing it up because in my opinion its irelivant. A person is not made credible by their ancestors, they are made credible by their own actions.

Now if by your question do you mean is life becoming more complex? Yes. Life on earth is constantly evolving and at the moment Humans are the most complex creatures we know of.
Now please explain the questions I asked earlier, how do we have fossils that date back millions of years and see light from millions of light years away if the earth is only a few thousand years old?

 

[johnnyjones]

If the church teaches a litteral genesis someone needs to tell the schooling attended because they spent a whole semester explaining how genesis was not literal but figurative. When I said geneology is for the Jews I ment that it would lend Jesus credibility to Jewish readers, but you seam to be stuck on this geneology subject for some reason. I’ll just quit bringing it up because in my opinion its irelivant. A person is not made credible by their ancestors, they are made credible by their own actions.

Now if by your question do you mean is life becoming more complex? Yes. Life on earth is constantly evolving and at the moment Humans are the most complex creatures we know of.
Now please explain the questions I asked earlier, how do we have fossils that date back millions of years and see light from millions of light years away if the earth is only a few thousand years old?

Geneologies are not irrelevant. The NT quotes real people, Adam, Abel, Noah, even in the epistles which are later accounts than the gospels. Nowhere do we see St./Paul saying , “well I’m using Adam even though we all know it’s just a symbol”. NEVER! If the people are real, Genesis is real, that’s why it’s important.

Tell a Catholic that Joseph, Mary, Eliabeth, David are not important to who Jesus is. You argument flies in the face of basic catholic teaching.

Life on earth is evolving? Man is still the same. The universe is on the way down. It is not on an upward trend as you need for evolution. Complex ordered arrangements tend to become simpler and more disorderly with time. There is an irreversible downward trend at work throughout the universe. Evolution requires increasing order and complexity.

 

[Hunter24]

Geneologies are not irrelevant. The NT quotes real people, Adam, Abel, Noah, even in the epistles which are later accounts than the gospels. Nowhere do we see St./Paul saying , “well I’m using Adam even though we all know it’s just a symbol”. NEVER! If the people are real, Genesis is real, that’s why it’s important.

Tell a Catholic that Joseph, Mary, Eliabeth, David are not important to who Jesus is. You argument flies in the face of basic catholic teaching.

Life on earth is evolving? Man is still the same. The universe is on the way down. It is not on an upward trend as you need for evolution. Complex ordered arrangements tend to become simpler and more disorderly with time. There is an irreversible downward trend at work throughout the universe. Evolution requires increasing order and complexity.

Yes, man is changing. the average human is much taller than in the past, and this is not due entirely to better nutrition. You don’t see humans evolving before your eyes because it a very long time. And no once life adapts to its current enviroment it begins to diversify and become more complex.

 

[johnnyjones]

Yes, man is changing. the average human is much taller than in the past, and this is not due entirely to better nutrition. You don’t see humans evolving before your eyes because it a very long time. And no once life adapts to its current enviroment it begins to diversify and become more complex.

“We are not some casual meaningless product of evolution.”
Pope Benedict XVI
I'll stick with the Pope, lest this turn into a banned thread. Peace.

 

[Hunter24]

“We are not some casual meaningless product of evolution.”
Pope Benedict XVI

       I'll stick with the Pope, lest this turn into a banned thread. Peace.

Why can’t evolution be the tool of god? Then we wouldn’t be casual or meaningless.

 

[Gaber]

“We are not some casual meaningless product of evolution.”
Pope Benedict XVI

       I'll stick with the Pope, lest this turn into a banned thread. Peace.

What then if we are some formal and meaningful product of evolution?

 

[grannymh]

Why can’t evolution be the tool of god? Then we wouldn’t be casual or meaningless.

It needs to be remembered that the human person is an unique unification of both the material world *and *the spiritual world. The spiritual soul, which is not bound by the limitations of a decomposing anatomy, is created directly by God.

And yes, Adam and Eve are real people. As the first human parents, all of us are descended from them.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

I believe in the creation account because IT IS in the bible, and evolution isn’t. 1+1= 2 is a universal truth, it doesn’t need to be explained. I believe in adaptation, not species to species evolution. I believe God created it all instantly like He said, just as I believe the resurrection was real because He said it. The doctrines that make our faith are in the bible. Remember scripture can not contradict tradition.

And by the same faith I believe the resurrection, I believe Genesis. To give added credence to Genesis, Jesus quoted it, and not as a parable. His lineage is from Adam as is necessary for his real existence. The Catholic Church teaches a literal Adam.

The evolution model is foolish and has one leaping flaw in it after the other. You need so much crazy logic to accept it. I can’t figure out why those who believe in it have so hard a time with a 6 day creation given the odds for it to arsise.

I understand but there are many people who don’t believe in our God or in any God, so they use evolution to explain things.

And if I’m correct, the Pope says the Catholic church accepts evolution as truth.