Adam and Eve story - Logically flawed?

[BeyondDoubt]

How could Adam and Eve be punished for doing wrong when they didn’t know right from wrong before they did it?

This implies that the concept of original sin is based on a logical absurdity.

Is it?

 

[BlaineTog]

They still had free will, knew who God was, and knew that they should have humbled themselves before him and been obedient to his wishes.

 

[BeyondDoubt]

They still had free will, knew who God was, and knew that they should have humbled themselves before him and been obedient to his wishes.

No they didn’t.

They didn’t know right from wrong, they didn’t have a moral compass, they couldn’t know that not being obedient was wrong.

So why were they punished?

Why if God is omniscient did he not put a guard on this tree as he did on the tree of life? That makes God himself culpable doesn’t it?

If you let an infant walk over a cliff when you could have foreseen it and prevented it you are absolutely culpable.

The story of Adam and Eve and the fall appears to be a logical absurdity.

If it is then where does that leave the doctrine of original sin?

 

[puzzleannie]

How could Adam and Eve be punished for doing wrong when they didn’t know right from wrong before they did it?

This implies that the concept of original sin is based on a logical absurdity.

Is it?

false premise
Adam and Eve were given all knowledge they need to resist the temptation and avoid the sin, in fact, they had the knowledge we lack because our intellect has been darkened by original sin. your false premise arises from the lie of the serpent, when he told them they lacked knowledge and could gain greater knowledge by sinning. this was a lie. the primary lie that underlies all lies of the Deceiver. they did in fact have perfect knowledge, and therefore perfect free will. you will of course note that this primary Lie underlies all lies used in current pop culture to induce sin.

 

[BeyondDoubt]

false premise
Adam and Eve were given all knowledge they need to resist the temptation and avoid the sin, in fact, they had the knowledge we lack because our intellect has been darkened by original sin

It is not a false premise, Adam and Eve did not know what was good and what was evil, they didn’t know that disobeying God was evil. The were not given ‘all the knowledge they need’ they didn’t have the knowledge of right and wrong.

The story makes no sense.

And christians have been controlled by the doctrine of original sin for centuries based upon it.

 

[BeyondDoubt]

Genesis 3:22

“And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil”

They only knew good and evil after that ate the fruit.

So they couldn’t know what was good or evil before that act.

So why were they punished?

It makes no sense.

 

[BlaineTog]

No they didn’t.

Yes they did.

They didn’t know right from wrong, they didn’t have a moral compass, they couldn’t know that not being obedient was wrong.

You’re missing my point. “Knowledge of good and evil” doesn’t mean “not knowing right from wrong,” not in the unique circumstance of Adam and Eve. Think of them kinda like little children: they don’t know why it’s wrong to pull little Ellen Smith’s hair, but mommy told them not to. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was more of a “why” than a “what.” It meant they needed to slake their intelligence in order to do what God wanted rather than follow him on simple faith.

Why if God is omniscient did he not put a guard on this tree as he did on the tree of life? That makes God himself culpable doesn’t it?

He put a guard on the tree of life afterward so that they wouldn’t eat of it and become eternally fallen. God set the two trees out there so that they could choose: eternal life with him (because had they eaten of the tree of life instead, they would have been unfallen and all of humanity could have been eternally with God in heaven right now), or the lies of the serpent. Having chosen the lies of the serpent, the tree of eternal life would have been like drinking arsenic immediately after committing a mortal sin.

 

[BeyondDoubt]

You’re missing my point. “Knowledge of good and evil” doesn’t mean “not knowing right from wrong,” not in the unique circumstance of Adam and Eve. Think of them kinda like little children: they don’t know why it’s wrong to pull little Ellen Smith’s hair, but mommy told them not to.

You’re trying to square a circle here.

They could not know that that eating the fruit was evil, they could not know that disobeying God was evil. Because God clearly says in Gen 3:22 that that had BECOME like him, knowing good from evil.

Interestingly evil seems to have existed before the fall of Adam and Eve, I wonder who created that?

Why couldn’t God be bothered to explain the consequences before they did it? He must have forseen they they would do it if he was omniscient, why didn’t be guard the tree before like he later guarded the tree of life (closing the gate after the horse has bolted) .

Wither omniscience?

I go back to my parent letting an infant walk off a cliff culpability. God appears to be totally culpable here.

Did God actually want them to eat the fruit?

This is truely a logical nightmare.

 

[Subrosa]

How could Adam and Eve be punished for doing wrong when they didn’t know right from wrong before they did it?

This implies that the concept of original sin is based on a logical absurdity.

Is it?

Even if they didn’t know it was “wrong”, per se, they found out after this passage…

Genesis 3:9-19 The LORD God then called to the man and asked him, “Where are you?” He answered, “I heard you in the garden; but I was afraid, because I was naked, so I hid myself.”

Then he asked, “Who told you that you were naked? You have eaten, then, from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat!” The man replied, “The woman whom you put here with me–she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate it.”

The LORD God then asked the woman, “Why did you do such a thing?” The woman answered, “The serpent tricked me into it, so I ate it.”

Then the LORD God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you shall be banned from all the animals and from all the wild creatures; On your belly shall you crawl, and dirt shall you eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”

To the woman he said: “I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children. Yet your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall be your master.”

To the man he said: "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat, “Cursed be the ground because of you! In toil shall you eat its yield all the days of your life. Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to you, as you eat of the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat, Until you return to the ground, from which you were taken; For you are dirt, and to dirt you shall return.”

This is called “consequence of sin.”

Subrosa

 

[VociMike]

Genesis 3:22

They only knew good and evil after that ate the fruit.

So they couldn’t know what was good or evil before that act.

Have you been privately interpreting scripture again?

What possible evidence do you have for saying they didn’t understand good and evil?

 

[peso73]

Well, here’s another thought, kind of related, (as far as the main topic, I dunno, seems kind of like a decent point, there are a lot of things that don’t seem logical with the plan of salvation as we know it, just kind of have to accept that God has a master plan we cannot understand fully) how come Adam and Eve were embarrassed by their nudity?! God made us naked, after all, and most would agree naked is more comfortable, and in the garden of eden there was no society to have instilled the concept of shame associated with public nudity we have today. I mean, children aren’t embarrassed to be naked, and the only reason indigenous people in the brazilian rainforest wear those little loin clothes is to protect their stuff while living in the rainforest near as I can figure…I’d imagine the garden of eden would have been a very pleasent place to be, naked or not, so why were they embarrased?

 

[peso73]

SUBROSA, where can I get that pic at the bottom of your post of the 2 popes I like it.

 

[BeyondDoubt]

This is called “consequence of sin.”

How could it be sin if they didn’t know it was wrong?

How could they know that doing what the serpent said was wrong?

If you have a child and you see then reaching for a hot pan… what do you do?

Well it looks like God would let them burn themselves and kick them out the house afterwards and then punish all their offspring as well.

is God ominscient or not?

Is he culpable or not?

This story is logical nonsense.

 

[BeyondDoubt]

Have you been privately interpreting scripture again?

What possible evidence do you have for saying they didn’t understand good and evil?

You tell me where I find the official interpretation of this story!

Is it officially literal or allegoric truth?

Thanks in advance.

Genesis 3:22 quite clearly states that after the act the were like God, knowing good from evil.

Is there an official Church teaching you can point me too that says other?

 

[Rolltide]

You tell me where I find the official interpretation of this story!

Is it officially literal or allegoric truth?

Thanks in advance.

If I recall correctly, officially, it can be interpreted either way, although if you use an evolutionary / scientific framework, you must still acknowledge that Adam and Eve were real and the first two people on Earth. (Even if they evolved to be that way…)

 

[BeyondDoubt]

If I recall correctly, officially, it can be interpreted either way, although if you use an evolutionary / scientific framework, you must still acknowledge that Adam and Eve were real and the first two people on Earth. (Even if they evolved to be that way…)

Yeah… but where does that leave the doctrine of original sin if you
don’t take the story as a wholey historical fact?

Are you suggesting that the Church allows Catholics to discard parts of the story or interpret them in their own way?

Where do I find that teaching?

All I find these days is the Church totally dancing around it couched in wooly terms from Vatican II documents.

Now… did it historically happen as stated in the Bible - yes or no?

What does the Church say?

 

[steveandersen]

You’re trying to square a circle here.

They could not know that that eating the fruit was evil,

Immaterial
They could know that it was wrong because they were told not to do it.

they could not know that disobeying God was evil.

But they could know it was wrong because they were told not to do it.

Because God clearly says in Gen 3:22 that that had BECOME like him, knowing good from evil.

As BlaineTog said above knowledge of good and evil is different from right and wrong.

Interestingly evil seems to have existed before the fall of Adam and Eve, I wonder who created that?

Is your ideological slip showing?

Why couldn’t God be bothered to explain the consequences before they did it?

Typically you obey God’s will because He is God not because you agreed with His assessment of the situation.

You don’t ask for detailed expatiations or a cost/benefit analysis

“So…Ah Mr. God, Sir… supposing I only err… tasted the apple… but didn’t swallow?”

He must have forseen they they would do it if he was omniscient, why didn’t be guard the tree before like he later guarded the tree of life (closing the gate after the horse has bolted) .

Wither omniscience?

Wither free will?

I go back to my parent letting an infant walk off a cliff culpability. God appears to be totally culpable here.

The point of the story (or rather one of the points of the story) is that life is full of struggles and choices. Mommy and Daddy (and God) can try to help but in the end it is on you to choose.

Did God actually want them to eat the fruit?

No but what kind of love would that be if He made the choice?
Sooner or later all parents must let their children make their own choices.

This is truely a logical nightmare.

Not particularly

 

[VociMike]

You tell me where I find the official interpretation of this story!

Is it officially literal or allegoric truth?

Thanks in advance.

Genesis 3:22 quite clearly states that after the act the were like God, knowing good from evil.

Is there an official Church teaching you can point me too that says other?

It’s all in the Catechism, starting in the high 300s.

Just a few things to consider.

• Adam and Eve were already “like God,” created in his image and likeness.
• They were already alive, even though they had not eaten of the tree of life. Therefore by analogy they would already know good and evil without eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
• “To know” has many meanings. One meaning is to experience, e.g. She had known great suffering. That meaning of the word is used elsewhere in the bible, and it is that meaning which makes most sense in the entire account.

So, are you open to these possibilities, or are you just on a rant?

 

[ChrisWRIT]

How could Adam and Eve be punished for doing wrong when they didn’t know right from wrong before they did it?

This implies that the concept of original sin is based on a logical absurdity.

Is it?

No.

True, Gen. 2:16-17 as opposed to Gen. 3:6-7, 11 & 22 show that Adam & Eve clearly had increased in knowledge & wisdom as a result of eating the fruit of the tree.

However, as Mike notes, that doesn’t mean that they had NO knowledge of the difference between right & wrong beforehand. They appear to have had some idea, even if that knowledge was not perfect & complete.

They knew that they were commanded not to eat of the fruit & were forewarned of the consequences (that they would die), as shown by both Gen. 2:16-17, as well as by Gen 3:3.

Adam & Eve were “punished” for willful disobedience. The consequence of having eaten of the tree was to be subject to death, & to be ejected from the Garden of Eden, among other things.

It’s all in the Catechism, starting in the high 300s.

Specifically, paragraphs 390-421.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm

Chris

 

[Shiann]

How could Adam and Eve be punished for doing wrong when they didn’t know right from wrong before they did it?

This implies that the concept of original sin is based on a logical absurdity.

Is it?

What makes you think they didn’t know right from wrong?

They had PERFECT logic of right and wrong. That’s why their sin was so GRAVE.