Adam and Eve were not the first Human Beings

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Adam and Eve started with a perfect human body. There were no diseases then so it’s not surprising they lived a lot longer. They were meant to live forever, never die!!! What we know about human beings if full of guesses, (missing links,) . I will stay with God and the Church. God Bless, Memaw
Death and disease came right after they sinned. I was under the impression that they sinned right from the beginning. Unless of course they sinned 800 years later, that seems to make more sense. But then death already existed in the world much.before Adam and Eve, so I’m inclined to think what is meant is spiritual death.
 
My understanding was that the Church “could not” take a doctrinal stance on the ***scientific ***nature of the origin of man but that does not mean that you are “free to believe in” creationism (or a literal interpretation of Genesis) except in as much as you are free to believe that the earth is flat. We are still bound by reason and diligence to the truth.
Very well put. This is why I find this issue so irritating–extreme proponents of either side are ignoring truth and reason.

Most either seem to be philosophical evolutionists improperly going beyond the science to make non-sequitur assertions about metaphysics and theology, thus ignoring true reason and Truth revealed through faith and Scripture; or literalist Creationists who seem to think that Creation itself is not part of Revelation, and thus what is discovered through physical science can just be blindly dismissed when inconveniently not fitting their interpretation.

It seems to me like how the “waters of the firmament” were once understood very mythically, but now, obviously, through hydrologic cycles and meteorology. And how, as our understanding of the cosmos has expanded through study, we find it still in harmony with Scripture, though some ways that Scripture refers to it are not literal scientific descriptions.

As you referenced, Cardinal Ratzinger perhaps put it best: Creation AND Evolution.
 
May I gently suggest that some people are unaware of the current physical science pronouncements about our human materialistic being.

One of the current scientific pronouncements is from physical science which has remarked on and made claims about what some humans refer to as the spiritual soul. Did Blessed Pope John Paul II agree with evolution? I don’t think so. He explicitly denied the physical science pronouncement of the emergence or epiphenomenon source of the spiritual soul.
Now I’m confused. Are you suggesting that there’s some “Catechism of Physical Science” where some singular authoritative body of scientists has pronounced that material science explains the spiritual soul (or that the spiritual soul doesn’t exist)?

This is all so vague. We must make distinctions about definitions whenever we talk about “evolution” and “science” and “scientists,” because people mean them in many different ways.

Physical science (as opposed to philosophical, metaphysical, or theological science), being limited to the study of physical (material) things, cannot possibly make any statement regarding non-physical things like souls or reasons for existence or pre-material existence or meaning. The moment people try to extrapolate data and theories into those realms, they leave physical science and postulate theories more properly belonging to philosophy and theology.

Yes, JPII denied those philosophical extrapolations that erroneously drew conclusions on human souls. He did, however, express support for the theories describing physical processes, kept within the proper scope of their discipline.
Because the nature of the first designated humans is key to the Catholic doctrines surrounding Original Sin, one can easily understand the current attack on the reality of Adam and Eve. Interestingly, there is now an attack from our friendly wolves in sheep’s clothing.
 
The evidence in the bible supports that the 6,000 year old timeline is Adams lineage.
That isn’t the position our Church takes. The Bible is not an exact historical record. The Catholic Church does not teach that creation is only 6000 years old.
To me this makes more sense and it goes along more with the scientific evidence that the human race is 200,000 years old.
Actually the first humans appeared over 1 million years ago.
 
If noone has allready asked this, could I hear a creationists answer to the starlight problem? How we can see stars billions of light years way if the universe is only thousands of years old? I have never gotten one they all refuse to answer.
 
This is all so vague. We must make distinctions about definitions whenever we talk about “evolution” and “science” and “scientists,” because people mean them in many different ways.
Many people tend to start with a set of beliefs, then work backwards. They’ll take a particular definition (out of several), or take an example (out of many), and cling to that definition/example to “disprove” the opposing view. That results in people simply talking over each other.
 
Death and disease came right after they sinned. I was under the impression that they sinned right from the beginning. Unless of course they sinned 800 years later, that seems to make more sense. But then death already existed in the world much.before Adam and Eve, so I’m inclined to think what is meant is spiritual death.
Physical death was a consequence of their sin but disease came much later. Even Noah lived over 600 years. Animals never had an immortal soul, they were never meant to live forever!! God Bless, Memaw
 
If noone has allready asked this, could I hear a creationists answer to the starlight problem? How we can see stars billions of light years way if the universe is only thousands of years old? I have never gotten one they all refuse to answer.
That is referred to “Young Earth Creationism.”
 
Your first sentence is misleading and inaccurate.

Peace,
Ed
Pope: Creation vs. evolution clash an ‘absurdity’ from NBC News updated 7/25/2007:

“Pope Benedict XVI said the debate raging in some countries —particularly the United States and his native Germany — between creationism and evolution was an ‘absurdity,’ saying that evolution can coexist with faith.”
 
That is referred to “Young Earth Creationism.”
Yes I understand, but in my experience many people beleaving a literal Adam and Eve are YECs. And the starlight problem would still disprove a literal interpretation of bible genealogy which claims the world is 6 days older than Adam.

However your right, ill start a new thread
 
I am disturbed by the snarky and downright rude comments directed at a priest on this thread - namely Father David. Father David attempted to articulate (and did so very well) the Church’s position that Catholicism and theistic evolution are indeed compatible… This has been the position of the Church going back as far as Pope Pius XII. Blessed John Paul and Pope Benedict both made it clear in their personal writings that they fully accepted theistic evolution. This obsession with young earth creationism strikes me as an American phenomenon - I’ve noticed that those who advocate it tend to draw upon Fundamentalist Protestant arguments - even using materials that are blatantly anti-Catholic. God often chooses to work through the laws of nature which He Himself set in place…biological evolution no more diminishes the power of God and the truth of His creative act than does the biological development of our own bodies from zygote to fully matured adult.
 
I am disturbed by the snarky and downright rude comments directed at a priest on this thread - namely Father David. Father David attempted to articulate (and did so very well) the Church’s position that Catholicism and theistic evolution are indeed compatible.
People tend to react like that when they have preconceived notions, and anyone brings evidence that their preconceived notions may, in fact, be wrong. It is much easier to take comfort in attacking others than accepting discomfort and admitting one is wrong, or even simply misinformed.
 
People tend to react like that when they have preconceived notions, and anyone brings evidence that their preconceived notions may, in fact, be wrong. It is much easier to take comfort in attacking others than accepting discomfort and admitting one is wrong, or even simply misinformed.
I could not agree with this more, by far the most common logical fallacy.
 
Some of the responses here are simply laughable. How can Catholics even be taken seriously anymore when they deny evolution? Catholics are supposed to be intellectual, not lumped in with so-called stereotypical evangelical crazies.
 
Some of the responses here are simply laughable. How can Catholics even be taken seriously anymore when they deny evolution? Catholics are supposed to be intellectual, not lumped in with so-called stereotypical evangelical crazies.
You should direct your derision to relevant individuals, and preferably to ideas, not to “Catholics”.

But I am with you that here is no proper basis, nor support in the Church, to deny that evolution of species is a reality in our world. And even less of a basis to think that said evolution pulls the rug out from under God’s creative capacity!
 
Now I’m confused. Are you suggesting that there’s some “Catechism of Physical Science” where some singular authoritative body of scientists has pronounced that material science explains the spiritual soul (or that the spiritual soul doesn’t exist)?
I would answer yes that there is some “Catechism of Physical Science” which is known as the Inductive Scientific Method of reasoning with nature as the authority. It is the material physical nature of the human anatomy which is being considered as the natural source of the “experience” of what some people call a spiritual soul. As long as nature is named as the authority, one could possibly conclude that the spiritual soul is really a natural emergence of the natural human anatomy.

What I am saying is that there is a need to catch up with how natural science is being used in the 21st century.
This is all so vague. We must make distinctions about definitions whenever we talk about “evolution” and “science” and “scientists,” because people mean them in many different ways.
I agree. Simply because people are finding it difficult to understand how natural science operates in the 21st century.
Physical science (as opposed to philosophical, metaphysical, or theological science), being limited to the study of physical (material) things, cannot possibly make any statement regarding non-physical things like souls or reasons for existence or pre-material existence or meaning.
I am sorry, I do not mean to be rude, but in many sections of the globe, this is not what is happening in the trenches. Because non-physical things like the spiritual soul which animates the human body (CCC, 364-366) is not part of the realm of science, scientists, who see the effects of a spiritual animating principle, look to the authority of nature for an explanation.
The moment people try to extrapolate data and theories into those realms, they leave physical science and postulate theories more properly belonging to philosophy and theology.
What is important to recognize, is that some people do not consider philosophy and theology as having anything to do with human nature. That is the real life we live in.
Yes, JPII denied those philosophical extrapolations that erroneously drew conclusions on human souls. He did, however, express support for the theories describing physical processes, kept within the proper scope of their discipline.
My apology, but “emergence” and “epiphenomenon” solutions to humans feeling some kind of spirituality are not philosophical extrapolations. Years ago, I was in a discussion on a published research paper. The general intent of the research was to locate free will as a function of the material brain. This was by observation during awake brain surgery. The methods and materials used to provide data were definitely not philosophical. My discussion partner and I examined the written report which included actual discussions between surgeon and patient in addition to the data from the use of a type of electrode. Science itself is in the material/physical world. One needs to examine the physical evidence per se. Our discussion on this particular paper concluded that the methods and materials used to determine where free will was anatomically located did not meet the Catholic standards for true free will. Therefore, an extrapolation to a physical [Catholic] free will location was not warranted by the presented evidence.

Natural science is a gift from God which benefits society especially in the medical arena. It is important to understand the scientific limitations when it comes to the real existence of two sole founders of humankind. We need to hone in on the methods and materials used in science in the same open manner as in the above example.

Obviously, we need to know the Catholic standards for true human nature which Adam and Eve had. And we have to affirm that God created all nature. When there is an intersection of science and Catholic teachings –

Divine Revelation trumps!
 
Not sure what you’re trying to say here. Sounds like you’re identifying some claims of some scientists that posit a purely materialistic human being (and thus upgrading of the mind).

I don’t see how that’s relevant to what I said. Of course there’s no material evidence for the soul–it’s immaterial. Thus physical science cannot remark on it, and can make no claims either way.

This is where metaphysics, philosophy, theology weigh in. We* can* observe the immaterial properties of the soul as they manifest in our lives–rationality, abstract thought, self-awareness, recognition of immaterial laws and principles, transmission of ideas, imagination, etc.

So science can only remark on the purely material, biological portion. It can describe this, while philosophical/theological knowledge describes the soul, and identifies the correlation between the anthropologically-observed “Great Leap Forward” with the infusion of the Soul–the general point in time in which it appears that God created Adam and Eve (taking a body that He may well have created from the dust of the earth through the process of evolution, and breathing into it a Soul in His image and likeness to create the first Human Beings).
The last paragraph is an assumption without scientific or Biblical support. We’re just the end result of purely bio-chemical processes over time. Religion, or belief systems, are built-in, with no clear scientific explanation as to why they exist, except as a possible aid to survival. The brain just self-rewired itself.

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211511/Why-born-believe-God-Its-wired-brain-says-psychologist.html

Peace,
Ed
 
My understanding was that the Church “could not” take a doctrinal stance on the ***scientific ***nature of the origin of man but that does not mean that you are “free to believe in” creationism (or a literal interpretation of Genesis) except in as much as you are free to believe that the earth is flat. We are still bound by reason and diligence to the truth.
It sure does.

Pope Benedict:

usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/2007-04-12-pope-evolution_N.htm

The rest of the story from Pope John Paul II:

"And, to tell the truth, rather than the theory of evolution, we should speak of several theories of evolution. On the one hand, this plurality has to do with the different explanations advanced for the mechanism of evolution, and on the other, with the various philosophies on which it is based. Hence the existence of materialist, reductionist and spiritualist interpretations. What is to be decided here is the true role of philosophy and, beyond it, of theology.

“5. The Church’s magisterium is directly concerned with the question of evolution, for it involves the conception of man: Revelation teaches us that he was created in the image and likeness of God (cf. Gn 1:27-29). The conciliar constitution Gaudium et Spes has magnificently explained this doctrine, which is pivotal to Christian thought. It recalled that man is “the only creature on earth that God has wanted for its own sake” (No. 24). In other terms, the human individual cannot be subordinated as a pure means or a pure instrument, either to the species or to society; he has value per se. He is a person. With his intellect and his will, he is capable of forming a relationship of communion, solidarity and self-giving with his peers. St. Thomas observes that man’s likeness to God resides especially in his speculative intellect, for his relationship with the object of his knowledge resembles God’s relationship with what he has created (Summa Theologica I-II:3:5, ad 1). But even more, man is called to enter into a relationship of knowledge and love with God himself, a relationship which will find its complete fulfillment beyond time, in eternity. All the depth and grandeur of this vocation are revealed to us in the mystery of the risen Christ (cf. Gaudium et Spes, 22). It is by virtue of his spiritual soul that the whole person possesses such a dignity even in his body. Pius XII stressed this essential point: If the human body take its origin from pre-existent living matter, the spiritual soul is immediately created by God (“animas enim a Deo immediate creari catholica fides nos retinere iubei”; “Humani Generis,” 36). Consequently, theories of evolution which, in accordance with the philosophies inspiring them, consider the spirit as emerging from the forces of living matter or as a mere epiphenomenon of this matter, are incompatible with the truth about man. Nor are they able to ground the dignity of the person.”

Peace,
Ed
 
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