Adam and Eve

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What does the Church teach about our participation in Original Sin? Were we somehow present when the first sin was committed?

Also, if the fall had not taken place, could it have occurred at any time with Adam and Eve’s descendants?
 
What does the Church teach about our participation in Original Sin? Were we somehow present when the first sin was committed?

Also, if the fall had not taken place, could it have occurred at any time with Adam and Eve’s descendants?
Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Original Sin is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put paragraph numbers and topics such as Adam, etc. in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Paragraphs 385 -421 are devoted to Original Sin. However, to really understand who Adam is, one should begin at the beginning, paragraph 355.

We were not present when Adam sinned. But we are implicated in his sin because all of human nature was as one body of one man. Through our human nature we contracted this sin which is a state not like a personal act.

If the fall had not taken place, could it have occurred at any time with Adam and Eve’s descendants? Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. If Adam had remained in friendship" with God, we as Adam’s descendents would live in friendship with God. In other words, if Adam had remained faithful to God, he would have gained original holiness for us.

The important thing is that God did not abandon us. For God so loved the world …
John 3:16 & 17

Blessings,
granny

The human person is the pinnacle of God’s creation.
 
The original sin was sex. Adam and eve lost their innocence when they has sex with each other, something god had told them never to do. because they did this we are all sinful in nature.
 
The original sin was sex. Adam and eve lost their innocence when they has sex with each other, something god had told them never to do. because they did this we are all sinful in nature.
I don’t think that’s right at all.
 
The original sin was sex. Adam and eve lost their innocence when they has sex with each other, something god had told them never to do. because they did this we are all sinful in nature.
No. Their sin was disobedience. We do not know what sex was like before the fall, but since God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, we know that God put his approval on them having sex. God created sex and it is holy. To say otherwise is a hersey. Only Satan, who wishes to make a counterfit of all things good, can obscure the purpose of sex and make it a sinful thing out of God’s plan. Let’s be very clear on that.
 
No. Their sin was disobedience. We do not know what sex was like before the fall, but since God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, we know that God put his approval on them having sex. God created sex and it is holy. To say otherwise is a hersey. Only Satan, who wishes to make a counterfit of all things good, can obscure the purpose of sex and make it a sinful thing out of God’s plan. Let’s be very clear on that.
Yes, you are quite right, god has made sex holy for those that bow to the flesh. Our saints of course (including our blessed Lady) remaind REALLY pure by being a virgin all her life but she was special. Like the Popes, they are set apart so they have to be virgins.

I agree with you.
 
The original sin was sex. Adam and eve lost their innocence when they has sex with each other, something god had told them never to do. because they did this we are all sinful in nature.
I would like to know more about what you mean by “sinful in nature”. My understanding is that human nature remained good. However, it is flawed by the first sin. Therefore, we are prone to sin but that is way different than being sinful in nature.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16 & 17
 
Yes, you are quite right, god has made sex holy for those that bow to the flesh. Our saints of course (including our blessed Lady) remaind REALLY pure by being a virgin all her life but she was special. Like the Popes, they are set apart so they have to be virgins.

I agree with you.
You seem a little bit confused on the Churches teaching of sex. Being a virgin is not a requirement to be holy or to be a saint or to be a priest - though the practice of chastity is.

Once we have committed a sexual sin, we can repent and while we can no longer be a virgin, we can surely be holy and chaste. Think of St. Augustine, he led quite a scandalous life before he was converted to Christ. Then, he led a life of chastity. Myself, a married woman is called to chastity by being pure in heart and spirit, but not celibacy. For some, having a spouse and being a parent is a way that God leads us to sainthood. Think of married saints like St. Gianna Molla. Being a virgin has nothing to do with being holy, only being pure. Remember, a virgin can lead an unchaste life by being involved in pornography or lust too. Virginity and chastity are not the same thing. We are called to honor God’s plan for sex inside and outside of marriage.

Mary was not special just because she was a virgin, but rather she was a virgin because God chose to her be special. Bearing Christ in her whom without ever knowing a man sets her apart quite a bit.
 
Like the Popes, they are set apart so they have to be virgins.

I agree with you.
Am I confused, or is poster Cashue?

I thought that celibacy in the papacy was fairly recent. Also, I’m not sure that virginity is a requirement even today. Many popes, as I recall, had rather large families.

Are men today required to be virgins in order to ordained? I’ve never heard of that. I’m not sure that a seminarian would even be asked that question.
 
St. Thomas taught that the sin of Adam and Eve was pride.
I don’t know what St. Thomas Aquinas said, but this statement of “pride” as the sin confused me for a long time. I tried to read Genesis and see where the pride was.

I would intuitively accept it, if Aquinas’ remark is based on Eve eating the fruit of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and bad. That would be the simplistic and traditional meaning, of Eve trying to be like the gods – which is to say, deciding for herself what is right and wrong.

There is a biblical sense of inclusion, in which Adam and Eve and all their descendents inherit the fault of that original sin, because we were excluded from the garden as they were.

Another example of biblical inheritance is that the covenant of Sinai pertained to all the Israelites living that time and to their descendents. So, the idea of inheritance is not at all foreign to our understanding of the events in Genesis.

A book called Subversive Sequels in the Bible: How Biblical Stories Mine and Undermine each Other (A National Jewish Bookclub Annual Award Winner, by Judy Klitsner) delves a lot deeper into Eve’s motivation and sin – and other matters.

One example which is easier to demonstrate than anything about Eve is this: Consider in the condemnation of Adam after the sin in the garden, God says that he will make a living by tilling the soil by the sweat of his brow – and all that. But, no sooner do we read on and find out that one of Adam’s immediate descendents, Abel, is tending flocks. So, that is the subversive thing, where Abel’s work “subverts” or overturns what had come earlier.

So, Eve (or H a v v a h) in the first chapter of Genesis is made equal to Adam in all respects. But, in the second chapter, she seems to have lost footing and Klitsner starts putting motivation in her to regain the status she had in Chapter One. So, if I understand her correctly from my first reading of the book, Havvah is trying to regain the lost ground of her status – which would be a subversive sequel to the status she seems to have quickly lost in Chapter Two. The upshot of which Klitsner might maintain is not based on pride, but based on the desire to return to the blissful condition of Chapter One of Genesis. – the spiritual and physical freedom and innocence of creation.

I am too old to resolve if pride itself was the first sin or whether it could even BE the first sin. The “fault” is described as the eating of the fruit which might have been the RESULT of the pride as a motivation. I wonder if Aquinas clarifies this distinction, as much as he said anything else about this.
 
Hi,

I am new to this form and don’t want to sound off-putting… but Adam and Eve were not responsible for Original Sin (the first sin). If you look closely at the scripture you can note that sin is not mentioned until Gen. 4:7 when God warns Cain “Sin couches at the door”. Cain is also the first person to be cursed in the bible after killing Abel.

The fall of Adam and Original Sin are completely different events.
Just wanted to clarify. 🙂

-Leyden
 
The sin of the angel Lucifer was pride. He was the most beautiful, the most intelligent, and the most powerful of all the angels. That wasn’t enough for him; he wanted to be God and have people worship him. The sin of Adam and Eve was something like pride but had different elements to it.

God had commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge and wisdom because if they did that they would surely die. I suspect that there was a real tree in a heavenly realm like that but surely it was a metaphor also. What is wisdom and knowledge but knowing what is the best thing to do or the best way to do things.

Eating the fruit of this tree is “acting on the belief” that we know what is the wise and best thing to do. Adam and Eve did this when they believed the lies of Satan and did what they thought was the wise and best thing to do, eat the fruit of the tree of wisdom and knowledge despite the fact that God had commanded them not to and also told them that the consequences of that was death.

Adam and Eve wanted the “pride” of making their own decisions even though God had given them a commandment. The additional sins that Adam and Eve had was the sin of lack of faith in the wisdom and love of God. Satan had told them that God lied when He told Adam and Eve that they would die if they ate the fruit. They believed Satan rather than God because what Satan said sounded like more fun. Possibly, Adam also sinned more than Eve because Eve gave in to a supernatural being while Adam gave in to another human being.

It was St. Paul, in Romans 5:12 that said,“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men because all sinned.”

Today, Satan is still saying the same lies. I hear some people say, “That was why God gave us free will because He wanted us to make our own decisions about what to do.” Isn’t that the same sin as Adam and Eve, they thought that they knew better than God and didn’t have to obey His commands.

God says in Proverbs 3:5,6 ;“Trust in Yahweh with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your path.” What does this mean except in all your decisions, trust that God knows what is best and do what God commands and not what you think is best. That if you do this, God will guide you (direct your steps) in everything that you will do.

What is the death that we will receive from doing what we want to do instead of what God teaches? Certainly there is the death of hell, being forever separate from God, but even in the short run, there is the loss of the sense of God’s presence, which is a kind of a death as well. That is the meaning of Adam and Eve hiding in the bushes. They were afraid of God and hid from his presence.
 
The original sin was sex. Adam and eve lost their innocence when they has sex with each other, something god had told them never to do. because they did this we are all sinful in nature.
There is no support for that idea. Sex was created by God, and it is good when used properly.

Neither can we say that Adam and Eve misused sex, because they were in a state of Original Justice and so their souls and passions were properly ordered. It was only after the Fall from grace that their passions became disordered. The body was no longer perfectly subjected to the soul. Hence we see Adam and Eve needing clothes after they sinned.

St. Augustine thinks the sin of Adam and Eve was the sin of pride. Recall that Adam and Eve were tempted to know both good and evil and so be as gods. The Hebrew word for “know” in this context means more than just intellectual knowledge, it means the knowing that come from experience. They were tempted to “experience” both good and evil and so be as gods.

Lucifer’s sin was to reject God because he could not be God. It was a sin of pride. Likewise, Adam and Eve committed a sin of pride, though we do not know anything about the actual nature of it. The act is described figuratively as the eating of forbidden fruit, which entailed disobedience.
 
Hi,

I am new to this form and don’t want to sound off-putting… but Adam and Eve were not responsible for Original Sin (the first sin). If you look closely at the scripture you can note that sin is not mentioned until Gen. 4:7 when God warns Cain “Sin couches at the door”. Cain is also the first person to be cursed in the bible after killing Abel.

The fall of Adam and Original Sin are completely different events.
Just wanted to clarify. 🙂

-Leyden
You need to re-read the story of Adam and Eve.

Original Sin is called Original because it is the loss of Original Justice by Adam and Eve through their willful disobedience to God’s command, which is sin. Hence, Adam and Eve were cursed with the consequences of their sin, all of which took place prior to the sin of Cain:

"To the woman he said: I shall give you intense pain in childbearing, you will give birth to your children in pain. Your yearning will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.

"To the man he said, 'Because you listened to the voice of your wife and ate from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat, Accursed be the soil because of you! Painfully will you get your food from it as long as you live.

"It will yield you brambles and thistles, as you eat the produce of the land.

"By the sweat of your face will you earn your food, until you return to the ground, as you were taken from it. For dust you are and to dust you shall return.’ "
 
I would like to know more about what you mean by “sinful in nature”. My understanding is that human nature remained good. However, it is flawed by the first sin. Therefore, we are prone to sin but that is way different than being sinful in nature.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16 & 17
You are basically right.

However, there are different senses in which we can say that good of human nature is diminished by sin. Rather than explain the effects of sin I will refer you to this article by St. Thomas Whether sin diminishes the good of nature? Let me know if you have any questions about what the article says.

As a result of Original Sin, we have an inclination to evil. But Martin Luther had a very different idea on this subject than does the Catholic Church. Luther believed that man is essentially evil. However, Luther’s assertion is contradictory and an impossibility as nothing can be “essentially” evil. And that is because evil is not a thing in itself. Evil is, rather, the absence of some good that a thing should possess. For instance, in regard to a broken arm, the physical evil is the absence of the right structure of the bone. Sin is a moral evil; it is a lack in the right order of the will.

As you can see, evil can only exist as an absence or lack in what is good. And insofar as anything exists, it is good. So the good will always be greater than the evil. To say then as Luther did, that man is essentially evil, makes no metaphysical or theological sense whatsoever.

Luther believed that our every thought, word, and deed was sinful in the sight of God. Man was so corrupted by sin that no even grace could not truly regenerate him. Man can be baptized and declared just, but this new justice or righteousness in Christ is merely a legal fiction that covers and hides our essentially evil nature like some cloak we put on when we become a Christian.

If you started to guess that Martin Luther must have had some serious psychological issues that explains his deep negativity about human nature, then you are on the right track to understanding his theology.
 
Hi,

I am new to this form and don’t want to sound off-putting… but Adam and Eve were not responsible for Original Sin (the first sin). If you look closely at the scripture you can note that sin is not mentioned until Gen. 4:7 when God warns Cain “Sin couches at the door”. Cain is also the first person to be cursed in the bible after killing Abel.

The fall of Adam and Original Sin are completely different events.
Just wanted to clarify. 🙂

-Leyden
Is that what the church teaches?
 
“Adam” in Hebrew is “man,” i.e. the whole of human nature in general. Man (we) wanted to control our own destiny, but the Father reserved that to Himself. Hence, we lost sight of Him by wanting that. To get it back, all we have to do is really want it back. He came to us as Jesus (“savior”), and gives us an adequate hope (vision) of final beatitude. Hence, “original sin” is a “missing of the mark” (Hebrew), i.e. “not seeing the Father.” It is not generic as defective human nature, as think Lutheranists, but as without natural meaning in life, which Christ’s redemption and the Father’s forgiveness-mercy supplies.
 
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