Adam and Eve

[Bill_Young]

Did God know before hand that Adam and Eve would disobey him and eat of the forbidden fruit?

 

[Edwardjohn]

Did God know before hand that Adam and Eve would disobey him and eat of the forbidden fruit?

Yep. God knows everything. Pretty mysterious, huh? I know that you’ll get a lot more theological explanations, but that is it in a nutshell.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

With god there is no before. He is I AM; there is no I WAS or I WILL BE.

 

[Crumpy]

Post #2 says “yup” in a “nutshell.”

If we crack that nut and take it out of the shell a bit there may be more information.

I don’t know the basis the this exactly, but the Jewish rabbis and sages have concluded that God composed the Torah (the “instruction” which is considered, in the first instance, to be the first five books of the Bible) at least two thousand years before the creation as Recorded in Genesis.

Jews have different forms of exegesis than Catholics do. I seem to recall one of their types of exegesis is – loosely – homiletical. This may be a homiletical form of Bible interpretation. But, it is based on a text that I cannot offer you right now.

It’s also based on the idea that God ended creation on the seventh day – so, it is logical that the Torah must have been composed before God stopped working. I think they use the same reasoning for saying that the commandments were written in stone up on Mt. Sinai before creation ended.

So, taking that traditional understanding, for example, you would have to conclude that God knew all about Adam and Eve in advance – if for no other reason.

Other scriptural support abounds, like that all the hairs on our heads and days of our lives are numbered and unchangeable – not just Adam and Eve but us as well.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

My guess is “yes”. It’s hidden in Creation.

He finished creating the world on a Friday and rested on the Saturday.

I think this is telling us that He had a plan to save us.

He finished His work of redemption on the Cross on a Friday and was laid to rest on the Saturday. Co-incidence? I think not. :twocents:

 

[chosen_people]

Post #2 says “yup” in a “nutshell.”

If we crack that nut and take it out of the shell a bit there may be more information.

I don’t know the basis the this exactly, but the Jewish rabbis and sages have concluded that God composed the Torah (the “instruction” which is considered, in the first instance, to be the first five books of the Bible) at least two thousand years before the creation as Recorded in Genesis.

Jews have different forms of exegesis than Catholics do. I seem to recall one of their types of exegesis is – loosely – homiletical. This may be a homiletical form of Bible interpretation. But, it is based on a text that I cannot offer you right now.

It’s also based on the idea that God ended creation on the seventh day – so, it is logical that the Torah must have been composed before God stopped working. I think they use the same reasoning for saying that the commandments were written in stone up on Mt. Sinai before creation ended.

So, taking that traditional understanding, for example, you would have to conclude that God knew all about Adam and Eve in advance – if for no other reason.

Other scriptural support abounds, like that all the hairs on our heads and days of our lives are numbered and unchangeable – not just Adam and Eve but us as well.

The concept of predestination is antithetical to Judaism.

All people are born innocent with two basic inclinations ( the “bad” inclination is one of self indulgence the “good” inclination is one of care for your fellow man). God in the creation stated repeatedly “it is good”. God did not make evil, it comes about by the free choice between our inclinations. The bad inclination of self indulgence, of disregard for others, can lead to evil. However, it is not evil in itself. The bad inclination allows a person to marry, to raise children. Carrying only for others, the good inclination, would not allow this. So we require a balance. Our guide post for this balance is through God’s commandments (for the Gentile the seven Noahide commandments). The rule for Adam and Eve to not eat of the fruit from a certain tree was a commandment. Adam and Eve both had free choice to follow or not follow this commandment.

There is no Devil in Judaism in the Catholic context. Catholics view the Devil as an uncontrolled adversary against God. However, God created all things and all things which were created are good. Satan in Judaism is totally under God’s control and is merely carrying out God’s will.

Just as Abraham was chosen by God because of his willingness to follow God’s commandments, Adam and Eve did not. However, the choice was always theirs to make.

 

[grannymh]

What is really important about Adam and Eve is the actual event of God’s loving them so much that He made them in His image so that they could share His life forever. He made them different from all else. He found them worthy of profound respect.

When we look in the mirror, do we see a population of thousands of bodies roaming the earth with only decomposition in their future? That is what some scientists and their groupies tell us. And their proof? Some particles of DNA which are shared with other beings.

Do a few drops of water explain the river? Yes, when one is looking only at the water. But when one looks at the beauty of water, the power of water to quench our thirst, the ability of water to take us to new lands, and the sound of evening water to lull us to sleep, what does one know beyond the chemicals H2O?

By teaching that Adam and Eve are the sole parents of our humanity, Catholicism is affirming that we, as their direct descendents, are unique in the entire universe, past, present, and future. We are more than decomposing matter. Our nature is made in the beauty of God. We have the power to seek God’s grace to strengthen our souls. We have the ability to reach God in eternity. We know that at the end of our troubled days, we will be in peace with God,

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect.

 

[Splinker]

Post #2 says “yup” in a “nutshell.”

If we crack that nut and take it out of the shell a bit there may be more information.

I don’t know the basis the this exactly, but the Jewish rabbis and sages have concluded that God composed the Torah (the “instruction” which is considered, in the first instance, to be the first five books of the Bible) at least two thousand years before the creation as Recorded in Genesis.

Jews have different forms of exegesis than Catholics do. I seem to recall one of their types of exegesis is – loosely – homiletical. This may be a homiletical form of Bible interpretation. But, it is based on a text that I cannot offer you right now.

It’s also based on the idea that God ended creation on the seventh day – so, it is logical that the Torah must have been composed before God stopped working. I think they use the same reasoning for saying that the commandments were written in stone up on Mt. Sinai before creation ended.

So, taking that traditional understanding, for example, you would have to conclude that God knew all about Adam and Eve in advance – if for no other reason.

Other scriptural support abounds, like that all the hairs on our heads and days of our lives are numbered and unchangeable – not just Adam and Eve but us as well.

You are referring to a Midrash that says the Torah is a blueprint for all creation. The Zohar, the main Kabbalah text, also states the Torah was created before creation.

 

[Langdell]

Did God know before hand that Adam and Eve would disobey him and eat of the forbidden fruit?

This is one of those questions that (as we see above) raises all sorts of issues involving predestination, free will, prayer, salvation, etc., etc.

I used to try to unravel these problems, but now I believe they’re things our human intellects just can’t fathom. I have faith in Catholic theology and leave it at that.



.

 

[Roy5]

The story of Adam and Eve is an interesting myth, with a moral lesson. Don’t play around with God and God’s commandments or you’ll catch hell.

 But, of course, it is only a creation myth, common to most ancient cultures.

 Kierkegaard raised an issue some years back that I've reflected on from time to time. If man did not yet have the knowledge of good and evil, can Adam and Eve be blamed for doing evil? Did they even understand the order not to eat from the forbidden tree? And, then, of course, why should we be burdened by original sin (if we believe in original sin)? This last question also has perplexed me over the years. There is something grossly unjust about punishing endless generations because some ancester transgressed.  

 But there are so many other issues. Like the rib story. Really, now. Or, God walking in the cool of the morning, looking for Adam and Eve. Rather anthropomorphic. 

 And if God is omniscient and knows what's going to happen - well, he must have planned it, or at least could have prevented it - that big sin, I mean. It's hard for me to distinguish between God knowing the future and determining the future. 

 In any case, the first eleven chapters of Genesis are essentially myth, or maybe one could say fable perhaps mixed with a certain amount of theological truth. God did create the universe - I believe - though the whole 6-day thing is quite absurd as is the idea that God created the sun, the moon and the stars after the earth. Those early Hebrew scribes didn't have very good telescopes so they had a warped view of this vast, magnificent but mysterious universe. 

 Did God really regret creating humankind and then decide to drown them all - except Noah's family? A monstrous act, even more so if he already knew they were going to become so wicked. He should have done something about it. Think of all the innocent children that were killed. And that Tower of Babel explanation for the creation of languages. Give me a break.

 Actrually many other accounts in the Old Testament make God out to be a monster. When, for example, he ordered Joshus to kill all those in Jericho and commanded Saul to slay every last Amalekite. Rather like Hitler, don't you think?

 None of this means that we can't be devoutly Christian in the sense that we want to be true followers of Christ - love God and one another. But we aren't required to leave our brains outside when we attend church. 

 God bless people of every faith and may religion become a bridge and not a barrier.

 

[grannymh]

This is one of those questions that (as we see above) raises all sorts of issues involving predestination, free will, prayer, salvation, etc., etc.

I used to try to unravel these problems, but now I believe they’re things our human intellects just can’t fathom. I have faith in Catholic theology and leave it at that.



.

Amen.

 

[buffalo]

The story of Adam and Eve is an interesting myth, with a moral lesson. Don’t play around with God and God’s commandments or you’ll catch hell.

 But, of course, it is only a creation myth, common to most ancient cultures.

 Kierkegaard raised an issue some years back that I've reflected on from time to time. If man did not yet have the knowledge of good and evil, can Adam and Eve be blamed for doing evil? Did they even understand the order not to eat from the forbidden tree? And, then, of course, why should we be burdened by original sin (if we believe in original sin)? This last question also has perplexed me over the years. There is something grossly unjust about punishing endless generations because some ancester transgressed.  

 But there are so many other issues. Like the rib story. Really, now. Or, God walking in the cool of the morning, looking for Adam and Eve. Rather anthropomorphic. 

 And if God is omniscient and knows what's going to happen - well, he must have planned it, or at least could have prevented it - that big sin, I mean. It's hard for me to distinguish between God knowing the future and determining the future. 

 In any case, the first eleven chapters of Genesis are essentially myth, or maybe one could say fable perhaps mixed with a certain amount of theological truth. God did create the universe - I believe - though the whole 6-day thing is quite absurd as is the idea that God created the sun, the moon and the stars after the earth. Those early Hebrew scribes didn't have very good telescopes so they had a warped view of this vast, magnificent but mysterious universe. 

 Did God really regret creating humankind and then decide to drown them all - except Noah's family? A monstrous act, even more so if he already knew they were going to become so wicked. He should have done something about it. Think of all the innocent children that were killed. And that Tower of Babel explanation for the creation of languages. Give me a break.

 Actrually many other accounts in the Old Testament make God out to be a monster. When, for example, he ordered Joshus to kill all those in Jericho and commanded Saul to slay every last Amalekite. Rather like Hitler, don't you think?

 None of this means that we can't be devoutly Christian in the sense that we want to be true followers of Christ - love God and one another. But we aren't required to leave our brains outside when we attend church. 

 God bless people of every faith and may religion become a bridge and not a barrier.

A great read - The Toledoths of Genesis

 

[ricmat]

 Kierkegaard raised an issue some years back that I've reflected on from time to time. If man did not yet have the knowledge of good and evil, can Adam and Eve be blamed for doing evil? Did they even understand the order not to eat from the forbidden tree?

God said don’t do it. They disobeyed. How can one know God and disobey?

And, then, of course, why should we be burdened by original sin (if we believe in original sin)? This last question also has perplexed me over the years. There is something grossly unjust about punishing endless generations because some ancester transgressed.

Punished? Are you punished, Roy? Really? You have life that you didn’t “earn.” You have life that you don’t “deserve.” You are merely dirt into which God breathed life. You have an opportunity to inherit as an adopted child of God everything that God has - eternal and infinite love, beauty, pleasure, joy… And with all these gifts, you complain about being punished? Because Adam and Eve originally got more than we did? What the heck is wrong with you?

 

[callmeChris]

Yes he did. Before the beginning of time he knew. It IS pretty awkward when one thinks about it. It is just like what G.K. Chesterton said: “The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man.”

 

[puzzleannie]

Did God know before hand that Adam and Eve would disobey him and eat of the forbidden fruit?

there is no “beforehand” for God, he is eternal that is always in the present. there is no past and future for God, those are constructs of creation. he is the Creator, not limited by his creation.

 

[edwest2]

The story of Adam and Eve is an interesting myth, with a moral lesson. Don’t play around with God and God’s commandments or you’ll catch hell.

 But, of course, it is only a creation myth, common to most ancient cultures.

 Kierkegaard raised an issue some years back that I've reflected on from time to time. If man did not yet have the knowledge of good and evil, can Adam and Eve be blamed for doing evil? Did they even understand the order not to eat from the forbidden tree? And, then, of course, why should we be burdened by original sin (if we believe in original sin)? This last question also has perplexed me over the years. There is something grossly unjust about punishing endless generations because some ancester transgressed.  

 But there are so many other issues. Like the rib story. Really, now. Or, God walking in the cool of the morning, looking for Adam and Eve. Rather anthropomorphic. 

 And if God is omniscient and knows what's going to happen - well, he must have planned it, or at least could have prevented it - that big sin, I mean. It's hard for me to distinguish between God knowing the future and determining the future. 

 In any case, the first eleven chapters of Genesis are essentially myth, or maybe one could say fable perhaps mixed with a certain amount of theological truth. God did create the universe - I believe - though the whole 6-day thing is quite absurd as is the idea that God created the sun, the moon and the stars after the earth. Those early Hebrew scribes didn't have very good telescopes so they had a warped view of this vast, magnificent but mysterious universe. 

 Did God really regret creating humankind and then decide to drown them all - except Noah's family? A monstrous act, even more so if he already knew they were going to become so wicked. He should have done something about it. Think of all the innocent children that were killed. And that Tower of Babel explanation for the creation of languages. Give me a break.

 Actrually many other accounts in the Old Testament make God out to be a monster. When, for example, he ordered Joshus to kill all those in Jericho and commanded Saul to slay every last Amalekite. Rather like Hitler, don't you think?

 None of this means that we can't be devoutly Christian in the sense that we want to be true followers of Christ - love God and one another. But we aren't required to leave our brains outside when we attend church. 

 God bless people of every faith and may religion become a bridge and not a barrier.

Again, man’s understanding attempts to substitute for what God told us. Our brains need spiritual truth as well as truths about Creation. Opinions are meaningless unless they are arrived at with not just a human understanding but with a God given, Holy Spirit understanding.

As Christians, do we follow some guy who disappeared 2,000 years ago or someone who is alive right now? After we die, the judgement. I don’t think people understand that. We will not meet a symbol but the Living God.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Crumpy]

You are referring to a Midrash that says the Torah is a blueprint for all creation. The Zohar, the main Kabbalah text, also states the Torah was created before creation.

Thank you. I have immense respect for Jewish writings and commentaries. Of course, we Christians believe that all the prophesies and promises are fulfilled in Jesus Christ Blessed is His Name.

 

[grannymh]

The story of Adam and Eve is an interesting myth,

From reading various posts, I have found that the Catholic Church is one of the few which believes the full story of Adam. While there is interesting symbolism connected with Adam, Catholicism teaches that Adam and Eve, by any name, are the sole, real, parents of humanity.

with a moral lesson.
Don’t play around with God and God’s commandments or you’ll catch hell.

Not exactly.

But, of course, it is only a creation myth, common to most ancient cultures

There are three times as many creation stories as there are ancient cultures. Considering that all people descended from Adam and Eve, of course stories about creation would take many forms. This is because as people migrated, some stories would still contain the basics. But as people moved away from a strong belief in God, they developed their own speculations.

To sort out which is which, I use the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Kierkegaard raised an issue some years back that I’ve reflected on from time to time. If man did not yet have the knowledge of good and evil, can Adam and Eve be blamed for doing evil?

Adam had a human nature just like ours. Using his intellect, he understood what it meant for the created to be in free submission to the Creator. With his will, Adam was free to choose between right and wrong.

Did they even understand the order not to eat from the forbidden tree?

The organic fruit tree can be seen as representing the choice Adam had to make.

And, then, of course, why should we be burdened by original sin (if we believe in original sin)? This last question also has perplexed me over the years. There is something grossly unjust about punishing endless generations because some ancester transgressed.

Catholicism doesn’t teach that.

But there are so many other issues. Like the rib story. Really, now. Or, God walking in the cool of the morning, looking for Adam and Eve. Rather anthropomorphic.

These are only issues for the extreme fundamentalist. Catholicism discerns Divine Revelation.

And if God is omniscient and knows what’s going to happen - well, he must have planned it, or at least could have prevented it - that big sin, I mean. It’s hard for me to distinguish between God knowing the future and determining the future.

These are interesting speculations. Common sense would say to pay attention to the for sure teachings.

In any case, the first eleven chapters of Genesis are essentially myth, or maybe one could say fable perhaps mixed with a certain amount of theological truth.

This is way too broad a conclusion.

God did create the universe - I believe - though the whole 6-day thing is quite absurd as is the idea that God created the sun, the moon and the stars after the earth. Those early Hebrew scribes didn’t have very good telescopes so they had a warped view of this vast, magnificent but mysterious universe.

Creation of the universe can be considered in two ways. The first way is Divine Revelation. See Genesis 1: 1 which names Who created the universe. This is in the realm of faith.

The second way is to examine the how which would be in the realm of science. Catholicism makes declarations of belief in the area of faith and morals only and not in the area of science. Various Catholic officials often comment about science. While these comments/opinions are often insightful and do contribute to the advancement of scientific knowledge, they are not considered as part of the Catholic Deposit of Faith.

The rest of this post is interesting. However, my area of interest is Adam and Eve and the origin of the human species. Thus, I will leave the answering to others.

Blessings,
granny

Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Eve is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put paragraph numbers and topics such as Adam, etc. in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Note that the concept of one set of original parents is critical to maintaining the equality of all humans. If we are all decended from one set of parents, we are brothers and sisters and equal. If the various races evolved independently then it is reasonable to expect that some have evolved further than others. Thus the idea of supermen and untermenschen has validity.

 

[grannymh]

Note that the concept of one set of original parents is critical to maintaining the equality of all humans. If we are all decended from one set of parents, we are brothers and sisters and equal. If the various races evolved independently then it is reasonable to expect that some have evolved further than others. Thus the idea of supermen and untermenschen has validity.

Yes. Because of its two sole parents, the unity of the human species insures the dignity of each individual created in the image of God. It also means that Jesus Christ truly died for all, past, present, and future.